Spring and Shock Harshness Explained (long)
04-09-2003, 08:45 PM
#1
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Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,391
Spring and Shock Harshness Explained (long)
Another forum member asked me about my Eibach/Koni setup and since I wrote so much, I've decided to share it with the whole maxima community in hope that a lot of the myths and rumors about spring and shock combinations can finally go away. Keep in mind that this is all my opinion, and I can be wrong front time to time. But I do believe for the most part, I'm correct about a lot of my points. And anyone who is a non believer, go take a ride with someone who has koni shocks and be amazed.
Here goes:
Koni Yellows on the softest settings combined with Eibachs actually feel really sloppy and bouncy. For the longest time I had my koni yellow rears set on the softest (because that's how the installer installed them). My car felt somewhat bouncy in the front and rear, and with a loaded backseat would commonly hit the rear bumpstops.
After installing my motivational rear mounts and setting the rear konis to 75% (3 turns) and fronts to 50% (2 turns) the car actually feels a lot less harsh, and a lot more controlled. My belief is that the springs create most of the harshness that people talk about, the struts actually take away the harshness by controlling the bounce, which is what would jar you the most, especially when bouncing a lot and hitting the bumpstops.
My personal belief is that Eibach/Koni isn't very stiff compared to some other setups I've ridden in and driven, especially JIC FLT-A2 coilovers on a 2000 eclipse and H&R Race Springs (From their racing series, not the same as the maxima ones)/AGX on a supra. When the ground drops an inch or two, you literally hit you head on the ceiling. My car feels firm, but not stiff and I personally really like the ride. My parents and girlfriend and many friends also ride in my car quite a bit even on long trips, and haven't complained about the stiffness at all. When they ride in my brother's car (JIC FLT-A2s 2000 eclipse) they complain a lot.
Another thing to keep in mind, is that BMW on all their cars always use softer springs with very high dampening shocks and medium thickness swaybars, but yet nobody complains about BMWs being too stiff.
I really do believe that the Eibach/Koni setup with the correct shock settings is the best handling combination short of coilovers such as the JIC FLT-A2. I also believe that sprints are too low and wouldn't give enough shock travel on the front end of the car to be a good handling combination.
All in all I'd say that if the Eibachs feel too rough, go with some H&Rs or another softer spring, instead of trying to find shocks that will take away the roughness, because I don't think there are any in the world that can. The only thing softer shocks can do is give you an uncontrolled, bouncy and harsh ride.
But if you do decide to go Eibach/Koni, I'd highly recommend installing the rears on 75% (3 turns) and set the fronts on 50% (2 turns). The softest settings will be very uncontrolled, bouncy and harsh.
Another option is to go with the AGX, but I've personally never experienced them and can't say anything about their performance, but I believe that they are pretty good. But besides the AGX or Konis and I don't believe they make Tokico Illuminas for our car yet, I don't believe there are any other shocks that have a high enough damping rate to handle high spring rate springs like the Eibachs. All other shocks will be bouncy, uncontrolled and rough.
Here goes:
Koni Yellows on the softest settings combined with Eibachs actually feel really sloppy and bouncy. For the longest time I had my koni yellow rears set on the softest (because that's how the installer installed them). My car felt somewhat bouncy in the front and rear, and with a loaded backseat would commonly hit the rear bumpstops.
After installing my motivational rear mounts and setting the rear konis to 75% (3 turns) and fronts to 50% (2 turns) the car actually feels a lot less harsh, and a lot more controlled. My belief is that the springs create most of the harshness that people talk about, the struts actually take away the harshness by controlling the bounce, which is what would jar you the most, especially when bouncing a lot and hitting the bumpstops.
My personal belief is that Eibach/Koni isn't very stiff compared to some other setups I've ridden in and driven, especially JIC FLT-A2 coilovers on a 2000 eclipse and H&R Race Springs (From their racing series, not the same as the maxima ones)/AGX on a supra. When the ground drops an inch or two, you literally hit you head on the ceiling. My car feels firm, but not stiff and I personally really like the ride. My parents and girlfriend and many friends also ride in my car quite a bit even on long trips, and haven't complained about the stiffness at all. When they ride in my brother's car (JIC FLT-A2s 2000 eclipse) they complain a lot.
Another thing to keep in mind, is that BMW on all their cars always use softer springs with very high dampening shocks and medium thickness swaybars, but yet nobody complains about BMWs being too stiff.
I really do believe that the Eibach/Koni setup with the correct shock settings is the best handling combination short of coilovers such as the JIC FLT-A2. I also believe that sprints are too low and wouldn't give enough shock travel on the front end of the car to be a good handling combination.
All in all I'd say that if the Eibachs feel too rough, go with some H&Rs or another softer spring, instead of trying to find shocks that will take away the roughness, because I don't think there are any in the world that can. The only thing softer shocks can do is give you an uncontrolled, bouncy and harsh ride.
But if you do decide to go Eibach/Koni, I'd highly recommend installing the rears on 75% (3 turns) and set the fronts on 50% (2 turns). The softest settings will be very uncontrolled, bouncy and harsh.
Another option is to go with the AGX, but I've personally never experienced them and can't say anything about their performance, but I believe that they are pretty good. But besides the AGX or Konis and I don't believe they make Tokico Illuminas for our car yet, I don't believe there are any other shocks that have a high enough damping rate to handle high spring rate springs like the Eibachs. All other shocks will be bouncy, uncontrolled and rough.
04-09-2003, 09:36 PM
#2
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
Yep.
That's why I always tell people they need to buy adjustable struts so that they can dial in the strut dampening that matches the spring. I run my front struts at 60% and rears at 50% with my H&Rs. Running OEM struts/Tokico Blues/KYB GR2s cannot keep up with the higher rate lowering springs therefore the springs do a lot of dampening and you get the harsher ride.
Dave
That's why I always tell people they need to buy adjustable struts so that they can dial in the strut dampening that matches the spring. I run my front struts at 60% and rears at 50% with my H&Rs. Running OEM struts/Tokico Blues/KYB GR2s cannot keep up with the higher rate lowering springs therefore the springs do a lot of dampening and you get the harsher ride.
Dave
04-09-2003, 09:46 PM
#3
Noted.
I have been running 1 out of 4 in the front for my AGX with Maxspeed, and 5 out of 8 in the rear.
2 in the front is a bit too harsh for me, but I shall try 3. For rears, I am planning to make it 6 this coming summer, but so far 5 is comfortable.
2 in the front is a bit too harsh for me, but I shall try 3. For rears, I am planning to make it 6 this coming summer, but so far 5 is comfortable.
04-09-2003, 10:31 PM
#4
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Join Date: Oct 2000
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Also everyone, keep in mind the difference between a "harsh" ride and a "bouncy" ride, they are two different things entirely.
When you have track stiff (over 400lb/in front and over 300lb/in rear) springs, the ride can be a bit harsh especially on roads that are wavy or bumpy, but your car will still feel controlled and not bouncy.
As opposed to a bouncy ride which when going over the same road would cause your car to bottom out hitting bumpstops, then bounce back upwards, then down again, giving you a trampoline feeling caused by weak shocks, or low shock settings. Which under certain circumstances can be dangerous, especially when cornering hard, and can cause you to loose control.
It is possible to have both at the same time, but generally higher dampening shocks will take care of most of the roughness.
When you have track stiff (over 400lb/in front and over 300lb/in rear) springs, the ride can be a bit harsh especially on roads that are wavy or bumpy, but your car will still feel controlled and not bouncy.
As opposed to a bouncy ride which when going over the same road would cause your car to bottom out hitting bumpstops, then bounce back upwards, then down again, giving you a trampoline feeling caused by weak shocks, or low shock settings. Which under certain circumstances can be dangerous, especially when cornering hard, and can cause you to loose control.
It is possible to have both at the same time, but generally higher dampening shocks will take care of most of the roughness.
04-09-2003, 10:54 PM
#5
it was my dumba$$ that asked him about his koni yellows... I appreciate the great write-up....very informitive
. I am interested in the yellows..not too many people have them, and so many people complain about their AGX's being too stiff even at the lowest settings. As many of you know, I live in Maine...and you wan't to talk about bad roads...some of our roads aren't even paved. Thats why I was asking..I would prefer a shock/strut that is bouncy/floaty..so it absorbs the bump (cadilac-ish). I don't do 90 degree turns at speed, or autocross. I'm tired of harsh rides.
04-09-2003, 11:10 PM
#6
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Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,391
Originally posted by MaxWolf
it was my dumba$$ that asked him about his koni yellows...
I appreciate the great write-up....very informitive. I am interested in the yellows..not too many people have them, and so many people complain about their AGX's being too stiff even at the lowest settings. As many of you know, I live in Maine...and you wan't to talk about bad roads...some of our roads aren't even paved. Thats why I was asking..I would prefer a shock/strut that is bouncy/floaty..so it absorbs the bump (cadilac-ish). I don't do 90 degree turns at speed, or autocross. I'm tired of harsh rides.
it was my dumba$$ that asked him about his koni yellows... I appreciate the great write-up....very informitive
. I am interested in the yellows..not too many people have them, and so many people complain about their AGX's being too stiff even at the lowest settings. As many of you know, I live in Maine...and you wan't to talk about bad roads...some of our roads aren't even paved. Thats why I was asking..I would prefer a shock/strut that is bouncy/floaty..so it absorbs the bump (cadilac-ish). I don't do 90 degree turns at speed, or autocross. I'm tired of harsh rides.
But wow, I never knew the roads were that bad over there, I'd almost say to go with an H&R/Koni combo with some 16in rims. Speaking of which, rims make a HUGE difference in feeling the little teeny bumps all over the road. When going from 16in to 18in, all those little bumps just crept right out.
That cadilac floaty feeling comes from very very soft springs and normal damping shocks, I've driven a few of those. I'd try for the softest springs you can find, H&R or possibly even going back to stock, unless you don't like the look. But a low ride, and a comfortable ride are usually non-complimentary. Even if you could find springs that were soft enough but yet low, you'd probably hit bumpstops and bottom out all over the place. There is only about an inch of travel left after lowering your car. It's always a tradeoff, but I hope you do end up finding the solution that fits you the best.
Another thing to add is that most of the aftermarket springs are progressive, meaning that they are stiffer near the bottom of suspension travel than in the middle. So as long as your shock can control your spring and keep it near the center, your ride won't be as stiff as it it were to bounce all over the place, entering the spring's stiffer zone.
04-10-2003, 05:01 AM
#10
Donating Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Apr 2001
Posts: 4,154
"Dampening
The act of making something damp. A common malapropism for "damping"
Damping
Causing vibrations to stop, usually by the use of friction. In suspension systems, this is commonly done either by direct rubbing friction, or by pistons forcing fluids through small openings. "
In our case, the shocks "dampen" the rebound of the spring.
The act of making something damp. A common malapropism for "damping"
Damping
Causing vibrations to stop, usually by the use of friction. In suspension systems, this is commonly done either by direct rubbing friction, or by pistons forcing fluids through small openings. "
In our case, the shocks "dampen" the rebound of the spring.
04-10-2003, 05:51 AM
#11
Member who somehow became The President of The SE-L Club
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Join Date: Jun 2001
Posts: 16,033
Excellent write up!
I have one comment that concerns the GR2's. Unless you've worked with these (I have) Don't say they will not handle sport springs such as Eibach & H&R. The GR2's are very firm, valved at or about the AGX settings on 2 & 3 and thats pretty tight!!! I've installed a few sets of these, even compaired them side to side with Tokicos. They blow the Tokico out of the water.
If you don't need or want adjustability (AGX), save some money and get the GR2's. I've coupled them with Eibach, Progress and Maxspeed. You get a very tight sports car ride with no bounce at all. Those who say they are a stock replacement obviously have never driven on them, they are not even close to stock firmness.
Both KYB products, the GR2 and the AGX work excellent when coupled with sport springs. Konis are also an excellent choice. Stay away from Tokico Blues unless your coupling them with stock springs for a nice smooth ride. Tokico Lllumina's are out for our cars but only one or two members are using them, they are very expensive.
I have one comment that concerns the GR2's. Unless you've worked with these (I have) Don't say they will not handle sport springs such as Eibach & H&R. The GR2's are very firm, valved at or about the AGX settings on 2 & 3 and thats pretty tight!!! I've installed a few sets of these, even compaired them side to side with Tokicos. They blow the Tokico out of the water.
If you don't need or want adjustability (AGX), save some money and get the GR2's. I've coupled them with Eibach, Progress and Maxspeed. You get a very tight sports car ride with no bounce at all. Those who say they are a stock replacement obviously have never driven on them, they are not even close to stock firmness.
Both KYB products, the GR2 and the AGX work excellent when coupled with sport springs. Konis are also an excellent choice. Stay away from Tokico Blues unless your coupling them with stock springs for a nice smooth ride. Tokico Lllumina's are out for our cars but only one or two members are using them, they are very expensive.
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