Thaniel

Pretty much the same boat here. The rest of the car was great but no ABS. Really wanted ABS especially since it is my wife's car and is driven during the winter months. Nothing like one or two rear tires locking when braking to make things exciting. In the snow it happens alot Bought the car anyway so in the poll It has no ABS but I WISH it had ABS. If in a state that didn't have snow I doubt I would care.

When working on the car I don't miss the ABS though!

maxspeed96CT

iTrader: (9)

i dont know why so many of you guys are hating on ABS.
i gues it doesn't rain or snow where you guys live, because in the snow i see so much of a differnce between my max and my boys 99 witch has no abs, even with pumping the brakes his is still like 10x worse.

the ony bad thing can think of is trouble when bying a brake kit or changing over to 300zx calipers.

Rob'sAE

I have ABS, it has saved my butt several times. I also have had a car w/o ABS and miss the control (or lack thereof)and threshold braking that it provided. It would be best if it had a switch to turn off and on...

Frank Fontaine

No diggity, no doubt.

Based on the financial decisions some of the posters make, you'd think they were 12 years-old with mommy and daddy giving them a 140k/yr allowance. Posts like, just traded my 2k4 Maxima for a M5! I got a 5% raise, time for a 42k car!

Besides the immaturity, there is also a touch of elitism. As if a real man doesn't need ABS. My aunt ran into some of that, she had a 5-spd on her E36 M3 Lightweight, but has the SMG on her 2k2 M3. Anybody who wants to call that an automatic probably argues against ABS too.

BadKarma99-4spd

iTrader: (4)

one of my favoirte sig pictures, nice work

orgasmicNYC

Why stop at ABS. Who needs airbags? Who needs seatbelts? Who needs insurance?

Point is ABS is not something people like or don't like. ABS is a safety tool for you. It doesn't hurt you or diminish your control in any way. You want to pump your brake go ahead, you want to slam it in an emergency go ahead. I don't see the point of this thread. On a side note, ABS was not something I looked for in cars but it sure will be.

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

That's a very good point. But I wear my seatbelt, but there are plenty of people who don't. Many of people are scared of airbags, but they still sit behind them b/c all cars have them (well after the early 90's). And tell the state of New Hampshire about needing insurance, b/c suppoesdly you don't need it there.

I didn't mean to word my thread as i did, I just wanted to know who has it and who doesnt and their opinions of it. It's just a freaking opinion, but I'm glad I wrote it the way I did because of the conversation it sparked up. So smile it's just a forum.

2k2kev

As long as you own the car outright, nope, you don't need it. You only need it if the bank has your title.

Dave B

Personally, I think it can do more harm than good in some cases (as in the case of my Z28 example). In some cars, ABS can extend braking distance up to 10'. People need to get it out of their head that ABS helps in dry distance braking. ABS is good, but it's not fool proof and isn't without any flaws. I don't feel that my car is unsafe compared to a similiar year Maxima with ABS. Good tires, good brakes, and defensive driving go a long way.


Dave

dwapenyi

iTrader: (3)

The thing that people may not see about ABS, is that it varies with the type of tire or rim you've got. Since we're enthusiasts, mods will change our standard setup quite a bit. On my 98 SE, which came standard with 16s, when I have 15s on in the winter, my ABS reacts great. It's wonderful. With 17s on and V-rated unidirectional rubber on in the summer, my ABS is too sensitive. It's harder to work with.

Either way, I'd rather have it b/c I'm always able to steer in both situations.

DW

2k2kev

in *some* cases, yes... but I'd rather have it and be more prepared for the *majority* of the time when it will do better than no ABS

come on... do we really *need* ABS when it's bright and sunny? No. We need ABS when it's raining or snowing or there's some crap on the road (wet leaves are worse than ice, IMO).

99% of the time if it's a dry road I can emergency-stop my car without the ABS coming on...I like ABS because of the 1% when there's something on the road and I get to hammer the brake to the floor and still steer.

nismology

iTrader: (8)

Like Dave B just stated and me also in a previous post, ABS can extend your braking distance in emergency situations on dry pavement. Threshold braking is superior in that and only that regard.

Rob'sAE

It does not matter if the braking distance has increased if you have avoided the situation.

dwapenyi

iTrader: (3)

ABS does not make your brakes stronger, it makes them better b/c you can steer out of a situation. Forget all that sales hype the salesman told you about stopping on a dime.

DW

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

Yeah you guys are correct, steering is good.

SEmy2K2go

iTrader: (10)

Yeah, I have ABS, but in the snow, doesn't make a bit of difference having it when you still have the Pretendza's.

Wisky97SE

iTrader: (1)

Thank you very much. The pic was taken at Bear Mountain, NY

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Please explain how you can pump your brakes faster than an ABS system. The ABS is contstantly keeping the car on the threshold.

nismology

iTrader: (8)

Not it's not keeping it on the threshold. It's applying and letting go however many times per second. There's a difference. If you can keep on the brakes and then pump only when you need to, who do you think is gonna brake sooner? The fractions of a second that it lets off the brakes add up over a distance. ABS just takes the guesswork out of hard braking. Notice how I said on dry pavement only.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Basicly you are saying just slamming on your brakes and skidding is better than the ABS pumping the brakes 30-40 times a second to keep the tire from locking up. I know you said on the dry.

nismology

iTrader: (8)

Nope. All I'm saying is if you can control your foot and not slam on them in the first place, you can brake hard without skidding without ABS. If you can do that successfully (and it is possible) you can get shorter stopping distances. ABS is awesome cus its 100243455 x's more consitent, but on dry pavement, you can do without.

2k2kev

if you're a pro, like you, right?

nismology

iTrader: (8)

Man, think what you wanna think. If you can't manage to brake hard on dry pavement without sliding out of control sans ABS, do you really deserve a license?? Of course past a certain level of brake application your gonna slide, but you can minimize it. I'm done with this thread.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

All I was looking for was a technical explaination. One you cannot provide I guess.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

If you aren't skidding, you're not doing anything the ABS isn't doing 100x faster.

MaximaRider

iTrader: (3)

I don't got them on this max, had them on my previous 95 SE. Not really missing them...yet

JSutter

iTrader: (46)

Heh skidding is bad. I have a few friends who needed ABS, but didnt have it. One totaled his Max and the other broke his wheel, fender, and suspension. So in the long run I guess its better to have ABS than not to have it. Im just gald i have not been in a sitiation where i need it.

2k2kev

Even ABS people say it's probably something you'll only use a few times in the life of your car...but in those few times wouldn't you rather have it than not?

http://www.abs-education.org/faqs/faqindex.htm

Everybody says "ABS" = "stopping distance" and that's NOT the case... ABS = CONTROL when stopping in an emergency, and the part everyone seems to be missing is on dry pavement there is less *need* for control because there are fewer emergencies.

Rob'sAE

I think what is trying to be said about dry pavement stopping is that without ABS when you threshhold brake you stop faster because you are not releasing the brake unless necessary and the tires are more or less "scrubbing" and not skidding. (as where the tires are rolling slower than the car is travelling but not completely stopped and therefore skidding.) Threshold braking is much faster at slowing down than ABS braking, and threshold braking can be done with ABS to a certain extent. Braking all the way to the threshold of ABS can produce similar results as threshold braking. I can stop faster on dry pavement by doing that than just standing on the brakes and engaging ABS. (rental car, 9 months ago, pontiac grand am, drove it like
I stole it ) It is still harder to modulate the braking and try and steer manually and if the situation ever called for braking AND steering I will engage ABS every time. That is why ABS was invented, the be able to steer AND brake, not to stop faster. If that was the case why do Indi cars not have ABS brakes, or NASCAR, or CART?

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Rules. You should see the extent that some of the F1/Cart teams go to make abs/traction control undetectable.

Dave B

Since people rarely read the links provide, here are some interesting notes from the link:

"1) In what circumstances might conventional brakes have an advantage over ABS?

There are some conditions where stopping distance may be shorter without ABS. For example, in cases where the road is covered with loose gravel or freshly fallen snow, the locked wheels of a non-ABS car build up a wedge of gravel or snow, which can contribute to a shortening of the braking distance."

"2) Can ABS stop all car skids?

While ABS cannot prevent all skids, it does prevent the wheels from locking in typical panic situations. ABS cannot, however, change the laws of physics. A combination of excessive speed, sharp turns and slamming brakes can still throw an ABS-equipped vehicle into a sideways skid."

"3) Do cars with ABS stop more quickly than cars without it?

Not always. Although the stopping distance with ABS is shorter under most road conditions, drivers should always keep a safe distance behind the vehicle in front of them and maintain a speed consistent with the road conditions. While a vehicle with ABS maintains its steering capability in a sudden stop, it may not turn as quickly on a slippery road as it would on dry pavement."



As IwANnAMaX96 was pointing out, it is possible to stop a non-ABS equipped car quicker than an ABS equipped car. Many of the earlier ABS setups from the mid 90s-early 2000s were very overreactive. In some cases they do increase braking distance. I'm pretty certain my Maxima is easily outbrake any stock ABS equipped Maxima on stock rims/tires. Tires are what is responsible for braking traction. If you increase the traction, you increase the braking capabilities. Here's an example of what IwANnAMaX96 and I are trying to point out:

The 15/16" all-season H-rated OEM are very prone to locking up due to thier all-season design therefore the ABS has to work hard to keep the brakes from locking up on a dry surface. With my Maxima on 17s and 235/45 w-rated Sumitomo HTRs, I can slam the brakes with no real fear of locking the brakes. I can faintly hear some tire chirping (almost sounds like ABS modulation), but there isn't lock up. On a surface has loose gravel (like a new street), I have been able to lock the tires on purpose during testing. When I felt and heard the lock up, I lifted off the brake for a slight second, heard the skid go away, then mashed the brake again. The quick lift is all it took to unlock the brakes. In the snow, I drive on the 17s and don't have problems sliding or hitting curbs etc. Pumping the brakes and experience goes a long way, and I know better than to drive fast in the snow unlike a majority of the US driving public.

ABS isn't a bad thing at all, but too many people put way too much faith in this technology. It's not fool proof and it doesn't necessarily make you stop quicker.


Dave

Broaner

iTrader: (10)

ABS licks my *****. I don't have it and definitely don't want it. It would be kinda nice in the winter here but the rest of the time you can't have fun.

2k2kev

Nothing is fool proof, and as i said above ABS isn't about stopping quicker, it's about having control while you're stopping. ABS and 'stop on a dime' are misconceptions... it should have been "ABS allows you to slam on your brakes and steer around a dime" but that doesn't sound good, so it'll never catch on.

Rob'sAE

I was thinking of that after I wrote it. Don't they try and slide it in under engine management where the computer senses when the drive train starts starts to speed up too fast (stability / traction control) and when under hard braking a sudden loss of G-forces ((ABS in a sense)while braking hard G-forces increase until the tires threshold is reached and then you start skidding and a sudden drop in braking force.)

2k2kev

How so? You mean you can't lose control of your car? When you get older and care about your life and the lives of others you'll stop calling it "fun."

orgasmicNYC

I remember watching when consumer report had a vehicle go through a puddle with ABS and w/o it and the stopping distance was very significant. You think you can brake faster then ABS on dry payment? Perhaps that is true for the 1% on here. Its the same with traction control, I remember when they had some professional car racer, drive the car with no traction control vs. a regular daily driver with traction control set to "on" and the professional driver managed to only control the vehicle a tad bit better then the traction controlled car. However, I apologize I forget everyone here is a "PRO" who can control their car to the maximum effiency at all times.

Rob'sAE

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Yeah something like that. RPM sensors and what not. Pretty ingenius. Traction control w/o using wheel sensors. Amazing.

dwapenyi

iTrader: (3)

IwanaMax96 makes an interesting point. Yes, humans can threshhold brake better than ABS, because humans can think, and therefore think about all the parameters involved in maximizing their stop in the given situation. ABS doesn't really "think." It senses wheel spin and then starts pulsing like mad, on whichever wheel. Threshold? What's a threshold? The thing about ABS is that even though it has no idea about how to determine a threshhold, it pulses so fast that the threshhold that could come from it's very fast pulsing rate will probably never be reached. It ain't the smartest system, but its blinding speed, compared to us PRO humans makes up for it.

DW

2k2kev

Humans can think but they can't react as quickly as a computer controlled hydraulic pump. So the person might perceive the problem before the computer senses it, but the person's reaction time will be magnitudes slower than the computer's.

And again, it's not about stopping DISTANCE it's about CONTROL, and ABS allows you more CONTROL than non-ABS cars.