I love it how people bash German cars for being not reliable, this might have been true 10 years ago. It's kinda like how people always equate domestics, with poor quality. Yes, you will have more problems with a German vehicle, but saying they are unreliable is not the correct terminology. My dad's 02' A8 has never been in the shop for any real problems over the last 2 years. I would say that the quality of that vehicle is great. German cars tend to have leading edge technology, which sometimes leads to minor annoying problems. When buying one, you should take this into account.

 

[QUOTE=twiggy144]

I agree with twiggy, and that is one of the reasons I do bot believe in extensive modding. Cars do get old and wear out. You gotta pay for everything, for food, rent, utility, and sometimes, a car payment. Don't be afraid of this new responsibility, just make a wise purchase. If you can fix your old 93 for less than $300-400 then do it and sell it right away, and use the money as downpmt.

 

First, I want to thank all that have replied so far. I know there are a lot of posts about "what should I do?" and I'm sorry for adding another one. But sometimes it helps hearing others opinions to see the situation from "outside the box." With all the feedback I have gotten from you guys, honestly I am still torn between the three options. I'll explain why...

Last night I test drove a loaded 2k2 SE 6spd. I brought my girlfriend along with me for her opinion too since her and I go everywhere together. All I can say is wow! about the power of that VQ motor. You step on the gas and that car MOVES! Holy Isht! Felt good to be in a new somewhat "problem-free" car. The car had 17k on it, White, Tan int (wasnt pleased with the colors). This car made me feel good and intimidating. However, I was not as comfortable in the car as I expected. It is true that the front seat area seems like it lacks the space as my third gen. The oversized center console and large center dash take up some space that could have been used for a wider seating area. The shifter feels terrible to me. With it in gear, the shifter itself has a lot of "play" in its spot and moves around a lot. I dont exactly know which gear is which. The clutch is waaaaay too light and grabs at the very top before engaging. Those things just did not feel right to me. Since Im trying to focus on getting a standard, this has to be comfortable to me. The car pulled to the left when I was driving it. I didnt think that the alignment should be that bad on such a new car. My girlfriend didnt like the car either. She said it was a very nice car and that it is, but it wasn't up to both our expectations. It had a sticker for $22,900, but Im sure bringing that down would not be a problem. The Maxima - Still an option...if the price is right.

I have not yet driven the A4 yet, I plan to tonight or tomorrow night. I have been looking around for some locally and I found one that I am going to take a look at to test drive. It is a 2001 A4 1.8T Quattro. Black/Black, 5 spd, and loaded of course. The mileage is much higher (around 55k) but serviced buy audi and is being sold a very reputable dearler locally. They are asking $14,900 for it. If anything it may be the car that I just test drive and thats it who knows. As far as the reliability issue goes, I am looking for a 2001, not a 96 or anything...I think that it being around 3 years old may be less risky of tragic issues. Besides if it was a car that was from a bad batch, the previous owner may have already absorbed the blow on it for whatever repairs. There is also a 3 year extended warranty available for it as well. Regardless, there are full service records available for this car. I can't predict what the problems will be or how much they will cost, all I know is that from the people that I know that own them, they love them. It has the style, a bit of the performand and it has the luxury that I am also looking for. The AWD is also an important thing to me. I do agree with the fact the the reputation is not there for Audi, but for this car that I found, so far the price is right. The Audi - The contender.

After I test drive the Audi, I will take a night to think about the fate of my 3rd gen. Letting it go is not what I want to do, but there is no need for me to keep around a car that has run out of its reliability. Then again, if the Audi is as bad as most of you say it is, then I would rather fix my 3rd gen that doesn't have a monthly payment than fix a newer car that has a monthly payment as well as more expensive parts. But I'm sure that a good warranty would cover most of that. I will take the next few days to fix the minor problems with my car. I will clean the isht out of it and maybe it might appeal to me once again. If I do decide to keep the max, then I will continue to represent the NE 3rd gens as I always have. I must say, even though it is 11 years old, that VE is still one strong bad *** mother uffer! Oh yeah, I am now at 160k on the third gen and VTC's are still running strong! (knocking on wood as I say that).

Thank you for you comments and please keep them coming!
-Clark

 

All I have to say is your have a Blue VE, people would give their left nut for that.

 

This is what I love about the ORG. People are honest and realistic with themselves and with their cars and don't make them out to be things that they're not. . Now why can't the Honda guys be like this?

Anyhow, I feel pretty much the same way. I love my 4G, but if it croaked I'd probably be getting something else besides another Nissan. I'd definitely buy another Nissan again, but I like trying lots of different cars. Variety is the spice of life. You can't pull that off with women so you might as well try it out with cars.

 

As for German vs American car reliability, they're about even these days according to both JD Power and Consumer Reports. But the difference is that a German car is still going to cost 2-3x more to fix when things go wrong vs the American car.

Consumer Reports has rated the 2001 A4 as "average" as far as reliability. No single major trouble area, but rather just lots of smaller issues. The older A4's have had big issues with A/C, suspension, and as usual for a German car, electronics.

 

First of all, who says you can't pull it off? It's one of those things, once you do, it's a snowball effect. Almost like the saying money goes to money.

German cars offer something that Nissan owners either hate or refuse to acknowledge--prestige. Also, BMW and Audi offer SUPERIOR road feel, and far less HP. That's the way it is. German cars are not for those who are cheap, either, because maintenance is expensive. If you haven't got money, then don't try to be something you're not, stick with a $4000 1998 Maxima SE. Do the math, just to get into a new 3-Series, you're looking at nearly $650/mo for 3 years with a $20,000 downpayment. That's reality.

With that being said, I don't think there is anyone who has had a Max for 5 years who isn't ready for something non-Nissan. Loose steering, rattles, etc., we get used to them, but doesn't mean we like them.

 

There's no doubt that prestige goes to the Germans, but that only matters if you care in the first place. I'm not cheap, but I need to feel like I'm getting my money's worth also. $40k for a 330i? eeeeeeehh. I'll take a G35 for $10k less minus the prestige and whatever last bit of refinement or road feel the 330 gives over the G35. That's just how I am.

 

The Germans understand the driving experience, das Fahrvergnügen! Unfortunately, you have to pay to play and it's a high stakes game.

 

it's grey

 

You're looking at it logically, which as the word implies, stands to reason. German cars don't make any sense if you want to use economics, but then again, a lot of things wouldn't. But in economics, you spend more where the marginal benefit is greater than the marginal cost. The 330, or any BMW for that matter, fails that test. But the kind of car that would pass the test would be somewhere between an Elantra with a Camry stretching it. So imho, in layman's terms, anything more than 15-18k on a new car requires justification that is really personal, not scientific. The way I view the G35 is it'll be even more of a headache than the Maxima. At 22.3k brand-new, there weren't any alternatives in a stick back in 1998. With the cost of the G35, you go into it already knowing that the steering is a sore point with the auto mags. Why spend all that money for a car with an achilles heel? 5-6k more and you have perfection, with outdated looks!

It always takes justification to take things to the next level, cable internet, HDTV, LCD flat panel, etc. I just made a contribution to PBS, which in retrospect I question because it's not as if I'm rich and can't use that money elsewhere. But my rationale was that they are way ahead of the curve with HDTV broadcasts, so what the hey, give them a contribution. Not very logical or economical, but emotional.

 

i say get a 02-03 max 6 speed
i just got my 02 with 5K miles, after tax title registration and other bs came out to 18,400$

 

i know the pre 99's had a $1000 maintanence that was basically just replacing belts, hopefully the newer ones don't have the same

 

think about the resale value also. If you keep putting thousands into your 3rd gen and you can only end up selling it for 2k or less (high mileage) you would be better off with another used car. I don't know man, after 12K in repairs on my 3rd gen (not including any mods), I sold it for 1000 with >200,000 miles. It cost me 6000 when I bought it, so 12000+6000-1000= 17,000 ownership cost. The guy I sold it to spent 5000 in repairs in the last 6 months, so if I had kept it that would have been 22,000 down the hole.

With a new car you take that big first year deprec. hit, but a car payment really isn't as bad on a used car (if you get a good deal), because if you don't wait a very long time to sell it you can probably get some of that money back.

 

dcmaxclub,

Your analysis s interesting. How many years did you you keep your 3rd gen? and how old was the car when you sold it for $1000?

 

did you do your own work?

thats the easiest way to rack up a maintence bill/other bill.

aside from suspension, motor, and brakes, almost everything on the car has been replaced, fixed, or cleaned (mechanical that is). My up coming projects are filling the motor mounts and replacing the suspension, then I will have a practically brand new car for less than 5k (hopefully), that can out handle my dads 2000 SE 5spd (not to mention my cars faster ).

 

I have a friend whom operates a two truck...His most picked up car? Audi A4...not only are they unreliable, but they cost a fortune to fix on top of it...dave is right on track with that post

 

I bought the car with 120,000 miles on it. When I sold it, there was well over 200,000 miles on it. I'd guess around 225-250,000, but who can really tell with the third gen odometers that stop moving every now and then. I remember weeks going by without the odometer moving.

I kept very extensive records, including every oil change. Actually I kept the stats posted on the washington dc max club website when I was the webmaster from 1998-2001. here is a partial list, the total is added up to the right of each post, notice I did not include the cost of the rims or tint (or any aftermarket purchases) in the total. This is NOT a complete list, and I didn't post anything done in 2001 or 2002. The transmission died again in 2002 and the car sat for almost a year until I sold it this fall. Where it says "self" that means I performed the labor myself. I kknow the guy who bought it from me, and he had to have the trans rebuilt, the suspension/suspension mounts replaced, and the ECU among other things.

Trans Rebuild (Automatic) 8/7/97 1200.00 St. Charles Transmissions 1200.00
Oil Change 10/9/97 20.00 Spring Street 1220.00
Battery 7/5/98 80.00 Sears 1300.00
Alignment 11/11/98 50.00 Goodyear 1350.00
Front Pads 10/3/98 44.00 * Tischer/Self 1390.00
Hub Rings 1/30/99 4.45* Mr. Tire/Self
Rear Shoes 12/4/98 116.00 Goodyear 1506.00
Headlamp 12/16/98 17.00* NAPA/Self 1523.00
Wiper Refills 12/28/98 17.00* Tischer/Self 1540.00
Small Dents fix 12/28/98 209.00 Dent Wizard 1749.00
Rims 1/11/99 692.00 Mr. Tire
Window Tint 12/31/98 145.00 AutoWiz
Fuel Filter 2/17/99 13.00* Tischer/Self 1762.00
Spark Plugs 2/17/99 12.00* Tischer/Self 1774.00
Ignition Wires 2/17/99 53.00* Tischer/Self 1827.00
Lft Rr Win Reg 2/19/99 161.00 Tischer 1988.00
Rotor, Dist Cap, Wiper blade 2/19/99 45.00 Tischer/Self 2033.00
Adjust TPS 4/22/99 65.00 Tischer 2098.00
Throttle Switch 4/23/99 39.00 (Part) Tischer 2137.00
Replace TPS 4/30/99 27.00 IAG 2164.00
Shocks/Struts 5/7/99 487.00 Midas 2651.00
Oil Change 6/7/99 27.00 Jiffy Lube 2678.00
Lock Assy FLD 10/8/99 115.00* (Part) Passport/Self 2793.00
Hinges Front L/R Doors 10/8/99 27.00* (Part) Passport/Self 2820.00
Gaskets 9/18/99 15.00* (Part) Security/Self 2835.00
Gaskets 9/11/99 26.00* (Part) Passport/Self 2861.00
Rebuild Trans 8/31/99 1200.00 St. Charles Transmissions 4061.00
Wheel Cap 6/12/99 33.00 Mr. Tire 4094.00
Oil Change 11/11/98 17.00 Goodyear 4111.00
Tires (Pirelli P7000) 1/12/99 485.00 Merchants 4596.00
Timing Belt/Oil 6/11/97 327.00 Passport 4923.00
Fuel filler Recall 6/11/97 Free Passport
Light Bulb 6/12/97 1.00 Passport 4924.00
Tires (Mich MX4) 8/1/95 339.00 Tire Discounters 5263.00
Oil/Timing Belt/Minor Tune up 12/1/95 499.00 Jeff Wyler Nissan 5762.00
Frnt Braks/Trn Rotors/Oil Chg 5/1/96 182.00 Jeff Wyler Nissan 5944.00
Exhaust Work(Frnt Crossover Pipe) 6/19/96 239.00 Meineke 6183.00

Rear Brakes/cylinders 8/2/95 209.00 Tire Discounters 6392.00
Water Pump 8/1/96 390.00 BP ProCare 6782.00
Oxygen Sensor 7/7/99 54.00*(Part) Tischer 6836.00
Valve Assy 7/7/99 6.00* (Part) Tischer 6842.00
Bra/Nose Mask 7/7/99 53.00* Tischer
CV Boot 7/14/99 98.00 IAG 6940.00
CV Boot 10/10/98 160.00 Tischer 7100.00
Front Mtr Mnt 1/18/00 59.00 (Part) Tischer 7159.00
Install Frnt Mtr Mnt 1/18/00 60.00 IAG 7219.00
Timing Belt, Water Pump, Idler Pulleys, Cam & Crank Seals 2/11/00 888.00 Datsun Dynamics 8107.00
Oil Change 10/03/98 23.00 Tischer 8130.00
Manifold Studs, Oil Change, Timing Adjustment (More..?) 10/22/99 1400.00 Datsun Dynamics 9530.00
Rear Mtr Mount 1/28/00 286.00 Datsun Dynamics 9816.00
Throttle switch Adjustment 5/26/99 65.00 Passport 9881.00
Front Rotors & pads, Wiper Blades 3/4/00 211.00* (Parts) Olympic/Self 10092.00
Distributor 4/00 462.00 Datsun Dynamics 10858.00
Diagnostics 4/00 200.00 Datsun Dynamics 11058.00
Towing 4/00 200.00 11258.00

 

Hey, this is great history record for analysis !

Looks like you kept the car for 6-7 years, for an average of $1700- $2000 repairs and maintenance per year. The average mileage driven would be 18k milles per year, which is 50 % higher than the canadian average of 12k per year. That would explain your high average cost per year.

Starting to wonder if the reputation of Maxima's reliability is really justified.

A national CAA survey (equivalent to the AAA) among 20000 respondants performed in 2003 revealed the average cost of maintenance for passenger vehicules is :

age of car
1 $200
2 $350
3 $500
4 $800
5 to12: $1100 per year

Survey respondants claimed driving an average of 19k km per year, or app 12k milles. (I am sure most respondants dont keep a detailed history of repair costs. So let's add a couple of hundred dollars to the age 5 -12 figure.)

In the last 12 months, I spent $1400 on my 1998 Max. I drove 22k km. It now has 103k km on the odometer.

In my estimation, the economical break point for owning a vehicule is when it reaches 7-8 years old. At that point, the average yearly total cost of depreciation, repairs and capital cost is at minimum. Beyond 8 years, the average yearly cost does not get any significantly lower. As a matter of fact, you increase the risk of being stranded, car downtime, time lost while at shops, and loss of income if you depend on the car for such. The most economical strategy is to buy a used car between 2 and 5 years old and keep untill it reaches 7 or 8 years of age. A made myself a rule of thumb to seriously consider getting rid of the car if the last 12 months actual costs or next 12 months forecast exceeds $1500. But often emotions get in the way. Or life has other plans.

 

Here we go again with non-scientific analysis. I have a freind who drives a tow-truck and blah blah.....so what type of car does he repo the most? Does that also tell a story?

My cousin has a 1998 A4 2.8 Quattro 5-spd. In 6 years, the only problems he had were his radio lamps going out and a whine from the drivetrain, both fixed under warranty. My oh my, what a lousy car to drive, because you're friend is a tow man and he knows how to do math. Buy a Maxima instead. Btw the 1998 Audi retails for about 15k--a far cry from the posts we've been seeing, "1998 GLE for 8k, is that a good deal or not? Maybe, but I got mine for under 5."

 

Because he's torn on what to do, and maybe some other people's opinions may help in his decision?

Clark, do what you think is best. I would personally be going for the A4 myself if I were looking for something that is classy, and the A4 definitely has that. Only drawbacks I can think of (and I'm not trying to jump on any anti-Audi bandwagons here), are the prices when you need to get something repaired. The '02 Maxima would most definitely be nice and all if you were to keep it stock, not to mention that there are alot of aftermarket parts coming out for the 5th gen everyday, however I remember you saying the other night about issues that arise when modifying the 5th gen. I hope you get to keep the 3rd gen and work on it, that would be one sick drag car if you put fourth the effort.

Or, as Ed said, go for a low mileage 4th gen. You know mine treated me very well thru the past 2.5 years (and 5 accidents later! ). Plus you know alot of us 4th gen owners haven't had much problem at all.

Dude, keep me informed on what you plan to do (and a little test drive of what you get next might not hurt either ).

 

Yo whats up Clark, sorry to hear your getting rid of the 3rd gen...
Like a few others have mentioned, I would look into a low mileage 4th gen. It has pretty much all the things your lookin for in a car. If you are looking to drop 18K, you could have a field day with mods after you buy it for around 11K.

Good luck with your decision and either way, make sure you stay up with the org, host another meet or somethin...peace

 

Bah, just move on and dont look back. That's what I'm doing

 

Definatly look into an audi A4 1.8T, I got mine 2 months ago and love the car. Its a very different car than the maxima. Check out Audizine.com for more info on it. for around 21K (If not a little more) you can get a 2002 (new body style) or a really nice 2001 for 18K. Very reliable cars, this is my second one. Not as many problems with it as I did with the Maximas.

And for those who are just talking sh*t about Audi's reliabilty and what not, you have no clue what you are talking about. I have owned a 97, 00, and an 02 maxima and IF anything, that was one of the most UNreliable cars Ive ever owned. In every one of the cars the trannys had to be replaced, and things broke left and right. Out of the 2 A4's Ive owned 2001, and 2004 I have had 0 problems with them. I know half you guys that are going to read this will disagree with me, because obviously Im on a maxima forum. But this is coming from a guy who has had both of the cars. I still am a fan of the maxima but when it comes to quality/refinement/reliabilty I choose the Audi.

 

 

i agree, thats what i did. plus i think its good to own different cars early in your life, its a good experience i think.

 

but you still own a Maxima?

 

I have owned 2 maximas in the last 2 years. 96' and 97' both modded.

I grew tired of the maxima though. reliability was going down hill, modding became rather expensive. once you get all the bolt on's, its takes a lot of cash to continue modding the max.

so.... I bought an Integra GS-R a few months ago.

I think its good to try a variety of used cars when you are young, so when you get a real job and buy a new car you know what you want. Couple years i will most likely get a wrx.

 

i don't see ur's being too scientific either lol . but anyways, i've already decided that my next car is going to be an S4 either a used TT version or a used V-8 version when I can afford it easily, despite the higher cost of maintanence and IF somethings go wrong, i'd be willing to take that chance. Those car's are just SWEET.

 

I agree with you completely on the 2-8 year stretch. A 2 year old car is good because you miss the first year depreciation hit. Plus you have nice cars coming off lease, whereas I would be suspicious that a 1st year used car may be a lemon.

As far as the reputation for reliability, despite all the maintenance required, the engine itself was tough. It was still strong when I sold it, and the build quality (fit and finish, lack of rattles etc) was better at 13 years old than my spec v brand new. The weakest link was the transmission. That was my third maxima (1st, 2nd, and 3rd gen), and all three had strong engines that lasted for many many many miles. So at least the engine was reliable

 

I plan on testing the Audi tomorrow. Anyone have any other options?

 

Well tuned turbo VE?

2k2 6 speed?

G35 6 speed?

Mustang 5.0?

240sx?

 

Clark,

You know me and I am behind whatever decision you make. But you need to make the decision, no one here or myself can make it for you. You need to decide on what factors at this point in time should and could affect your decision as to what or which car to buy.

Sit down and compare median costs of the two cars, not only sale prices, but common wear and tear item replacement costs, as well as which items normally break down and how many miles. Basically you are looking to find the lesser of two evils. My money says the Maxima will be a better car for you, but that is for you to decide.

Oh and remember, you can always wait until spring and start going to the GSA and the other auctions with me...you never know what you can find. Maybe another 91 Max for $25 bucks eh?

-Dave

 

parts will be more expensive for an audi, and so will labor if you have work done on it. It might be more fun etc, but if you are taking into consideration the money, value thing, look at the whole picture. Your maxima is old, period, and honestly...what do you expect after a while? A newer audi might be nice, but a nice maxima could be nice as well. The 1.8t doesnt put out a ton of horsepower, and is a small engine, but you have room to grow. All up to you

 

So whats the verdict man? Don't keep us in suspense!

Sorry I didn't get back at you last night, I was at work till 11 and was mad tired...

 

you know he can't leave us

 

FYI, my friend has a 2K A4 1.8T FWD. He has a 1.1 bar chip, and turbo back exhaust and he runs the 1/8 a tick faster than me and all I have is exhaust, intake, UDP and a bad knock sensor. The chip was like $450-$500! I'd expect a little more performance. In general those thing are expensive as hell to mod. You probably be better off getting a newer Max and putting some F/I on it.

 

This is very true. I work for a car dealer that includes an Audi franchise. The Audi's are very stylish cars, and are very spirited to drive. As stated above, and in consumer reports, be prepared to take your Audi into the shop often...many little things add up to one huge pain in the a$$.

 

You do realize that your comparing your V6 to a 1.8T with a stock KO3 turbo. chipping these cars doesnt really do much. If your looking to make it a lot faster then you go with a EO5 upgrade which will set you back 1900. But im quite sure that with that kind of upgrade on that car and it its tuned correctly then it wont be just a tick faster.

 

and if he does get the Audi, he better slap some .org stickers on there!