Anyone interested in 2-piece 6th gen rotors?
02-25-2005, 10:20 AM
#1
Anyone interested in 2-piece 6th gen rotors?
This will apply to those that have done my BBK, the 6th gen conversion, or own an '04-05 and just want GOOD rotors.
What's this mean?
1. that means 2-piece rotors up front. very very little chance of them warping. I've had mine on under heavy track use for ~3 years and gone through 15 sets of street and track compound pads and I haven't had to turn them yet! (for those of you that have used Hawk HP+ pads, you know how tough they are on rotors!!)
2. That also means MUCH MUCH better heat dissipation and capacity, without transferring that heat into your wheel bearings and wheels themselves.
3. The next benefit is lower weight. The factory 12.6" rotors weigh 25lb EACH. These will weigh approx 16lb each. That's saving almost 10lb of unsprung, rotating weight PER WHEEL!!!
4. Here's what a set of my custom 13" rotors looks like on my car..
http://mattblehm.com/pics/car/brakes...s/im000404.jpg
http://mattblehm.com/pics/car/wheels/IM001100.JPG
http://mattblehm.com/pics/car/wheels/IM001101.JPG
Coleman Racing quality (these are the rotors used on many types of race cars- NASCAR, SCCA, Trans-Am, WRC, and lots of high perf street cars. They're also the same company that Fastbrakes uses for their rotors.)
I've made a few calls and to have the rotors and hats custom made, this is going to run about $600 per set for the front set including rotors, hats, and mounting hardware.
Before I go any farther and start shelling out thousands of $$ to have this stuff made, I need to know how many people are interested in them. Lead time will depend on how long it takes people to send money, and how long it takes to get the parts made. Remember, this is all custom stuff that has to be machined from scratch. no off-the-shelf parts here.. I'm guessing around a month after I place the order.
So who's interested?
What's this mean?
1. that means 2-piece rotors up front. very very little chance of them warping. I've had mine on under heavy track use for ~3 years and gone through 15 sets of street and track compound pads and I haven't had to turn them yet! (for those of you that have used Hawk HP+ pads, you know how tough they are on rotors!!)
2. That also means MUCH MUCH better heat dissipation and capacity, without transferring that heat into your wheel bearings and wheels themselves.
3. The next benefit is lower weight. The factory 12.6" rotors weigh 25lb EACH. These will weigh approx 16lb each. That's saving almost 10lb of unsprung, rotating weight PER WHEEL!!!
4. Here's what a set of my custom 13" rotors looks like on my car..
http://mattblehm.com/pics/car/brakes...s/im000404.jpg
http://mattblehm.com/pics/car/wheels/IM001100.JPG
http://mattblehm.com/pics/car/wheels/IM001101.JPG
Coleman Racing quality (these are the rotors used on many types of race cars- NASCAR, SCCA, Trans-Am, WRC, and lots of high perf street cars. They're also the same company that Fastbrakes uses for their rotors.)
I've made a few calls and to have the rotors and hats custom made, this is going to run about $600 per set for the front set including rotors, hats, and mounting hardware.
Before I go any farther and start shelling out thousands of $$ to have this stuff made, I need to know how many people are interested in them. Lead time will depend on how long it takes people to send money, and how long it takes to get the parts made. Remember, this is all custom stuff that has to be machined from scratch. no off-the-shelf parts here.. I'm guessing around a month after I place the order.
So who's interested?
02-26-2005, 08:46 AM
#5
Shawn, think about it for more than half a second.. how can you make a "hybrid" rotor that has 10mm and 16mm offset and 12.6" and 13" diameters at the same time?
And no, I'm not making rear rotors as well.. nobody wants to make a hat if you're using them for a parking brake. too many issues there with making them work.. And if places like Coleman and Wilwood refuse to make them, I'm goign to take it as a good sign that I shouldn't mess with it either.
I'm going to need a minimum of four people to buy up front before I can do this..
$600 may seem like a lot of money, but think about it for a little bit.. saving 10lb PER WHEEL, getting much better quality rotors that will last 3-4times as long as regular rotors, and it's "only" about 2.5 times the price of a set of OEM rotors up front.
When the time comes that you need to replace the rotors themselves, then they're going to be about $125 each. (The rest of the cost is in the hats). that's not much more than the OE rotors, yet you get so much more performance.
so when you look at it overall, you'll be saving money!
And no, I'm not making rear rotors as well.. nobody wants to make a hat if you're using them for a parking brake. too many issues there with making them work.. And if places like Coleman and Wilwood refuse to make them, I'm goign to take it as a good sign that I shouldn't mess with it either.
I'm going to need a minimum of four people to buy up front before I can do this..
$600 may seem like a lot of money, but think about it for a little bit.. saving 10lb PER WHEEL, getting much better quality rotors that will last 3-4times as long as regular rotors, and it's "only" about 2.5 times the price of a set of OEM rotors up front.
When the time comes that you need to replace the rotors themselves, then they're going to be about $125 each. (The rest of the cost is in the hats). that's not much more than the OE rotors, yet you get so much more performance.
so when you look at it overall, you'll be saving money!
02-26-2005, 11:52 AM
#7
I'm sure I will buy these when my rotors and pads wear out, but I can't afford to buy them as of right now when my brakes are still working fine. But I really like the weight saving benefits. What rotor options would be available?
02-26-2005, 12:26 PM
#8
You can do drilling and slotting for additional cost, you'd need to let me know beforehand exactly what you want and I can get a price on it. I think it's like $20 per rotor for slots and probably that much for drilling as well..
02-26-2005, 01:14 PM
#9
Well Matt, it seems like you know a great deal about brakes. My problem is I have 42k on my 6th gen and my rotors are warped to crap. I would like to get a set of these in the future just because I have never owned a rotor that didnt warp. Im sick of it. Anyways I didnt even think about the weight savings on the drive wheels! 10 lbs is insane. Anyways I really hope you get these going or can offer them in the future when I have sufficient funds to upgrade. I have a question for you, If I replaced the front rotors and pads, would I still feel the vibration from the brakes because my rear rotors could possibly be warped? Im just curious because I wanted to replace all of them but it might not be neccesary. If not then I might just start saving and give ya a call when I afford a set of these. Oh yeah do you offer any pads or any other products for the 04? Sorry for so many questions.
Glude
Glude
02-26-2005, 11:13 PM
#10
Well, I was working on setting up with a distributor so I'd be able to sell other aftermarket rotors, pads, fluids, etc etc.. but the guy's been real flaky and hasn't returned any of my calls.. I'd been chasing them since before christmas.. so if this is the way they do business, I don't want to deal with that... I'll go somewhere else when I find the right place that's willing to take my calls and will let me throw thousands of dollars at them.
Jeez, you'd think they don't want to take my money or something!
So anyway, I'm still working on getting that stuff set up. just gotta find the right place and the right vendor that doesn't treat me like crap....
90% of the time it's just the front brakes that warp and will be most of the vibrations you feel in the pedals.. the rears are easy enough to check though- just jack up the back end of the car and spin a wheel. if you notice any binding or dragging, then something is warped or out-of-round. if they're smooth and no binding, then the problems are all in the front.
If I can get a few buyers up front on the rotors, then I'll go through with this. otherwise, I'm not going to crap out the $5000 this will take for the initial run.. I simply don't have it to spend!
Jeez, you'd think they don't want to take my money or something!
So anyway, I'm still working on getting that stuff set up. just gotta find the right place and the right vendor that doesn't treat me like crap....
90% of the time it's just the front brakes that warp and will be most of the vibrations you feel in the pedals.. the rears are easy enough to check though- just jack up the back end of the car and spin a wheel. if you notice any binding or dragging, then something is warped or out-of-round. if they're smooth and no binding, then the problems are all in the front.
If I can get a few buyers up front on the rotors, then I'll go through with this. otherwise, I'm not going to crap out the $5000 this will take for the initial run.. I simply don't have it to spend!
02-26-2005, 11:38 PM
#11
Would you be willing to package this with your BBK? I'd rather get it all at once. If doable, is there any accommodation in price sliding? 
Oh, is this a one-off thing (even with after first batch run) or will you continue to take orders as they come in?
I won't be committed until summer so I hope you can get the interest to go forward now
Oh, is this a one-off thing (even with after first batch run) or will you continue to take orders as they come in?
I won't be committed until summer so I hope you can get the interest to go forward now
02-27-2005, 12:39 AM
#13
Originally Posted by Bonka
Forgot, are these 2-piece ones lighter compared to stock 4th gen rotors?
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
3. The next benefit is lower weight. The factory 12.6" rotors weigh 25lb EACH. These will weigh approx 16lb each. That's saving almost 10lb of unsprung, rotating weight PER WHEEL!!!
02-27-2005, 04:46 PM
#15
I forgot the weight of the stock 3rd/4th gen rotors, but I know my 13" 2-piece rotors are lighter than my stockers by several pounds.
Basically, I'm going to order these in small batches if there are enough people interested. The big deal is machining and shipping costs to me, since the hats will be made by a machinist up north and the rotors will be custom made for me by Coleman.. My big issue is that I don't want to have to crap out $5000 of my own money and they end up sitting on the shelf, like my rear brake kits that everybody wanted and nobody bought. I lost several thousand on that deal...
Basically, I'm going to order these in small batches if there are enough people interested. The big deal is machining and shipping costs to me, since the hats will be made by a machinist up north and the rotors will be custom made for me by Coleman.. My big issue is that I don't want to have to crap out $5000 of my own money and they end up sitting on the shelf, like my rear brake kits that everybody wanted and nobody bought. I lost several thousand on that deal...
02-27-2005, 05:56 PM
#16
You might possibly try putting a post in the 6th gen forum. You might get some feedback from them. I know that rotors are something that not many companys offer for us yet. Some people say they have brembos that they got off a guy on ebay but I heard from a .org sponsor that they arent real because brembo hasnt made any yet for us. If I had the cash now I would say put me down for a set, but I dont. It just seems like it would be a worthwhile investment because rotors are definately something that I hate messing with because they always warp on me! Matt, I didnt notice you were so close to me. I was wandering if you have any wheels for sell? 18s? I remember that you use to have tons lying around and would sell sets from time to time.
02-28-2005, 01:14 PM
#17
I'll post a link in the 6th gen forum to here... I figure most people check at least their particular forum and this one, so posting in both would get me on Jeffy's $hit list.
I just sold my old set of 17s, and everything else I have are 16s and smaller.. 17s will clear my brakes just fine, and I'm more into performance than looks.. so I stick witht he smallest and lightest wheels that will fit over my brakes.
I just sold my old set of 17s, and everything else I have are 16s and smaller.. 17s will clear my brakes just fine, and I'm more into performance than looks.. so I stick witht he smallest and lightest wheels that will fit over my brakes.
03-01-2005, 05:24 AM
#19
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
2. That also means MUCH MUCH better heat dissipation and capacity, without transferring that heat into your wheel bearings and wheels themselves.
3. The next benefit is lower weight. The factory 12.6" rotors weigh 25lb EACH. These will weigh approx 16lb each. That's saving almost 10lb of unsprung, rotating weight PER WHEEL!!!
3. The next benefit is lower weight. The factory 12.6" rotors weigh 25lb EACH. These will weigh approx 16lb each. That's saving almost 10lb of unsprung, rotating weight PER WHEEL!!!
How can a rotor with less mass have better heat capacity?
03-01-2005, 08:03 AM
#20
better cooling capacity should have been the proper wording.
they're also made of stronger materials than regular cast iron rotors, so their thermal properties are slightly different.
the cooling veins on mine are just barely showing surface rust after 3 years.. my stockers were so rusted, the veins were filled with flakes of junk by this time.
they're also made of stronger materials than regular cast iron rotors, so their thermal properties are slightly different.
the cooling veins on mine are just barely showing surface rust after 3 years.. my stockers were so rusted, the veins were filled with flakes of junk by this time.
03-01-2005, 09:10 AM
#21
Matt,
I was told the 2K4 rotor was 21 lbs. 7.5oz, you're saying 25lbs? Even so, that's a significant savings IMO. Using the 8:1 rule-of-thumb for tires/wheels(not brakes!), that means you'd be shaving around 88lbs. of sprung mass. Not to mention the benefits of lightening unsprung mass has on the suspension.
Also, would it be possible these could replace Stillens' AP BBK single piece rotors?
I weighed my OEM size Stillen rotors and they were 15lbs +/-0.5lb and the AP 1-piece rotors were 22lbs +/- 0.5lb, so I'd seriously consider these if they come in at only 16lbs. and will work with the AP caliper/bracket.
I was told the 2K4 rotor was 21 lbs. 7.5oz, you're saying 25lbs? Even so, that's a significant savings IMO. Using the 8:1 rule-of-thumb for tires/wheels(not brakes!), that means you'd be shaving around 88lbs. of sprung mass. Not to mention the benefits of lightening unsprung mass has on the suspension.
Also, would it be possible these could replace Stillens' AP BBK single piece rotors?
I weighed my OEM size Stillen rotors and they were 15lbs +/-0.5lb and the AP 1-piece rotors were 22lbs +/- 0.5lb, so I'd seriously consider these if they come in at only 16lbs. and will work with the AP caliper/bracket.
03-01-2005, 11:06 AM
#22
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
Also, would it be possible these could replace Stillens' AP BBK single piece rotors?
I weighed my OEM size Stillen rotors and they were 15lbs +/-0.5lb and the AP 1-piece rotors were 22lbs +/- 0.5lb, so I'd seriously consider these if they come in at only 16lbs. and will work with the AP caliper/bracket.
I weighed my OEM size Stillen rotors and they were 15lbs +/-0.5lb and the AP 1-piece rotors were 22lbs +/- 0.5lb, so I'd seriously consider these if they come in at only 16lbs. and will work with the AP caliper/bracket.
I know my 13.1" 2-piece rotors with 6061-T6 hats weigh a bit less than the stockers, but I still haven't gotten a scale to know exactly how much. BTW, still working on getting the parts we discussed.
03-01-2005, 12:54 PM
#24
They'll sell them, but they want $350 each for them, and that's just the rotors..
I talked to them several years ago before making my kits.
This should give you an indication on the weight of the rotors...
This is the box my 13" discs came in.. 34lb.
http://mattblehm.com/pics/car/brakes...s/IM000344.JPG
subtract 3lb for the cardboard (there was a lot!), and then add back in 1lb each for the hats and you're at 16.5lb per rotor.
Last set of 2k4 rotors I shipped out, it was around 54lb in the box.
I'll take my 2-pc rotors off tomorrow and weigh them or something... maybe if I get done with other stuff today.
I talked to them several years ago before making my kits.
This should give you an indication on the weight of the rotors...
This is the box my 13" discs came in.. 34lb.
http://mattblehm.com/pics/car/brakes...s/IM000344.JPG
subtract 3lb for the cardboard (there was a lot!), and then add back in 1lb each for the hats and you're at 16.5lb per rotor.
Last set of 2k4 rotors I shipped out, it was around 54lb in the box.
I'll take my 2-pc rotors off tomorrow and weigh them or something... maybe if I get done with other stuff today.
03-05-2005, 03:15 PM
#27
Finally got around to weighing my rotors.
13" x 1.25" 2-pc rotors. 17.30lb each.
the 13" rotor itself weighs 15.5lb.
hat with mounting bolts weighs 1.81lb
Doing a bit of math (assuming the Inner diameter of the disc section stays the same, the weight of the 12.6" x 1.1 rotor will be roughly 12.5lb.
That puts a 2-pc copy of the '04 Max rotor at about 14.1lb each
Remember, this is just a bit of simple math based on the rotor I have here and chopping material off until it fits- the actual number should be close, but I'm not going to guarantee those results to the gram or anything.
13" x 1.25" 2-pc rotors. 17.30lb each.
the 13" rotor itself weighs 15.5lb.
hat with mounting bolts weighs 1.81lb
Doing a bit of math (assuming the Inner diameter of the disc section stays the same, the weight of the 12.6" x 1.1 rotor will be roughly 12.5lb.
That puts a 2-pc copy of the '04 Max rotor at about 14.1lb each
Remember, this is just a bit of simple math based on the rotor I have here and chopping material off until it fits- the actual number should be close, but I'm not going to guarantee those results to the gram or anything.
03-05-2005, 03:21 PM
#28
03-05-2005, 07:58 PM
#29
Originally Posted by Matt93SE
They'll sell them, but they want $350 each for them, and that's just the rotors..
The genuine AP rotors we use weigh 13.208 lbs. The hat and hardware can't weigh more than 1.75 lbs, which puts total weight around 14.95 lbs or less.
Originally Posted by DeusExMaxima
What BBKs can I get for my 2k5 Max? I want lighter weight and better calipers? Any suggestions?
In order to reduce weight, 2-piece rotors are a must, avoid large 1-piece rotors like the plague. Most aftermarket calipers will stop better than the stock ones, but they need to be aluminum to be lighter. Do you want better pedal feel? Better fade resistance? Better looks? Few calipers will offer all of that.
I won't recommend any specific brake system, as I may be just a little biased. But look at my sig.
03-07-2005, 01:20 AM
#30
I was thinking about 1500. Id like lighter rotors and claipers. My lighter rims make a HUGE difference in acceleration. zI took off abt 10 lbs per corner. I loved the feel of my Brembos on my Spec V. I want my 05 Maxima brakes to feel like that. How much and when will they be available?
03-07-2005, 01:50 AM
#32
Originally Posted by DeusExMaxima
What are the 2 pieces to a two piece rotor and why do they weigh less?
Here's a pic of some old rotors taken apart for maintenance:
03-07-2005, 09:25 AM
#33
Originally Posted by Larrio
The actual outer part is the rotor, the inner part is a lightweight aluminum hub. This eliminates the heavy iron center section found on one-piece rotors, and reduces heat transfer from braking going into the wheels and bearings.
Here's a pic of some old rotors taken apart for maintenance:
Here's a pic of some old rotors taken apart for maintenance:
03-11-2005, 08:47 PM
#39
I'm sure with the amount of mods you've done on your car, you realize just how much work that would be (just to give you an idea, I've had requests now for 4,5,5.5,6 gen Maxima, and B14 & B15 rotors)..
unless I can see some sort of payback from it, I don't see much need to fork out several thousand $ out of my own pocket and dozens of hours of design, phone calls, shipping samples and chasing parts, etc etc etc. If you want 100% custom, I can handle that as well, but the costs are going to be pretty high- around $1000 for a single pair, and that's IF the rotors can be made in a 2-pc version and still fit in the space required... I'm not trying to get rich on this by any means, but I'm also not in business to lose money by spending my time on a product and making half a dozen sets and end up selling only one or two.
I lost my shirt on the Z32 rear brake setup.. 15 people told me they were in it when I started. I sold a tiny fraction of that.. I could have bought a Z32 with the amount of money I have sitting in boxes in the shop right now. I don't plan on doing that again...... Just to put things in my perspective so you understand why I'm saying what I'm saying.
unless I can see some sort of payback from it, I don't see much need to fork out several thousand $ out of my own pocket and dozens of hours of design, phone calls, shipping samples and chasing parts, etc etc etc. If you want 100% custom, I can handle that as well, but the costs are going to be pretty high- around $1000 for a single pair, and that's IF the rotors can be made in a 2-pc version and still fit in the space required... I'm not trying to get rich on this by any means, but I'm also not in business to lose money by spending my time on a product and making half a dozen sets and end up selling only one or two.
I lost my shirt on the Z32 rear brake setup.. 15 people told me they were in it when I started. I sold a tiny fraction of that.. I could have bought a Z32 with the amount of money I have sitting in boxes in the shop right now. I don't plan on doing that again...... Just to put things in my perspective so you understand why I'm saying what I'm saying.