Nismo87SE

Since my SE-R has 2 fuel injectors that are boarderline bad (read about 10.0-9.9 on my ohm scale). I made a trip to the local dealer to price them, never the less I'm looking else where. But I did have him reference the intake manifold to cylinder head gaskets for both 99 and 00 maxima's. The intake manifold gaskets are the exact same part number, which means they are interchangeable. So if anyone really wants to be hardcore go get a 00+ intake manifold. Of course you would probably need some kind of rpm activated switch to open up the intake runners (MSD for example). As for power gains it has been said that 90% of the power gain from 4th to 5th gen is due to the new intake manifold design. Judging by other 5th gen dyno charts a realistic gain of about 10-25hp would happen over 5000rpm. Combine that with bolt ons, JWT ECU, a 5spd 4th gen *should* (if driven right) trap around 95-98mph in 1/4. With traction its possible to see low 14's with nothing but bolt ons . Hell maybe someone could get nice headers and custom cams, which *might* give the potential to hit 13's NA. Just another set of idea's for anyone wanting more NA power, but don't/can't get a supercharger. BTW with a JWT ECU and the 60hp nitrous program, you'd have the potential to run low 13's at the flip of a switch. Or if one was to run 370cc injectors, 104+ octane, larger fuel pump a 100hp shot of nitrous could be used. From what I seen the 100hp JWT nitrous kit produced times in the 13.2-13.6 with 102-105mph traps in various SE-R's. So no reason for a maxima to hit 12's consistantly with enough traction. That is assuming you don't break any gears (3rd gear is known to be break on high torque SR20DE's).

Slickismax

iTrader: (4)

Here's what I want to know....I ran a 14.71 with a y-pipe, highflow intake, aluminum flywheel, and a stage III clutch. If I add a CAI, UDP, HF cat, catback, and the UPRD ECU, is it possible to run 14 flat?

NickStam

iTrader: (3)

Hmm...that's a good idea, but i'm that hardcore. Maybe some day!

Nismo87SE

You may have ran a 14.7 but what was your trap? Given the fact that our cars are FWD, you would need at least a 96-99mph trap to hit 14.0-14.3's. This is assuming you pull off a short time of less than 2.1. I don't believe a catback is neccessary, Dave B was able to run the same times with just a b-pipe. But if you like the sound that more power to ya, I couldn't handle the sound of a 4th gen with Y pipe and stillen muffler. One thing is for sure if you can pull off consistant 94-95mph trapspeeds, given a great launch (2.1 60ft or less) your car should net 14.5's all day long. The ECU should probably add about 1-2mph to your trap and reduce ET by like 1-3 tenths.

Dave B

Well, I would love to be able to fit the 5th gen manifold to the 4th gen. If I knew for sure that it worked, I'd get it ASAP. The intake butterflies could easily be wired into a rpm switch and everything else can be "fabbed" to fit the 5th gen. Bolting it on to the 4th gen block is still slightly uncertain. I think the 4th gen could stand to gain about 15 fwhp with 5th gen intake with a much deeper powerband (the VQ powerbands are already deep). I don't think the 4th gen will make as much power as the 5th gen VQ because I believe the 5th gen has some slightly deeper breathing cams. If I could make power to 6400 (600 rpms than I'm at now), I'd be VERY happy. 15fwhp more with 150lbs less weight, a 4th gen with the 5th gen intake manifold could be a deadly combo. I am VERY sure a modded 4th gen like this could nail very low 14s at near 98-99mph with a traction and weather.


Dave

Nismo87SE

A long time ago Loren did some research and found that the 00+ VQ30DE cams are [b]milder[b/b] than the 95-99 VQ30DE cams. Its probably not a very big difference but there should be better performance with the older cams. The manifold *should* bolt on without much trouble, the hard part comes from in with emission sensor connections. It would be nice to get a FSM scan of the intake manifold for both cars. Also the VQ30DE with the new runners will need a higher rev limiter. Based on several 2k maxima torque curves the power would level off around 6400-6700rpm then drop a few hp by 7000rpm. One of the reasons the 5th gens aren't as fast as we expected (minus several hardcore drivers ) is that it doesn't stay in the powerband as much. Nissan basically shifted the entire powerband about 600-800rpm sooner. I'm willing to bet that with a 7k rpm rev limiter (which the JWT ECU provides) the power from 6000-7000 would look just like the 5000-6000rpm power from the 4th gen. I also agree that a 4th gen with this swap would haul so much ****. I'd do it in a heartbeat assuming someone give me a VQ to test with hehe.

Nismo87SE

What is wrong with the MEVI .?

Dave B

What's wrong with the MEVI? You know better than to ask this question

Look at the graphs of the MEVI vs that of the 2k-2k1. You'll see that the 2k-2k1 manifold makes peak power at 6400-6500rpms where as the MEVI makes peak power at 6000rpms. The short runners of the 2k-2k1 manifold simply flow better than the resonance tuned MEVI. My VIM only netted me a peak gain of ~6fwhp. My orginal post was before we knew anything about the MEVI. Also, we didn't know that the MEVI would loose the VQ torque from 2500-4800rpms. This is a slight problem because of the stock fuel cut of 6500rpms which forces us to shift early therefore we have to accelerate with less power on the early portions of 2nd and some of 3rd. With a raised rev limter, we will be able to get out of this less powerful portion of the rpms.

That's my excuse



Dave

njmaxseltd

iTrader: (19)

I wanna see where this threads leads.....

DA-MAX

iTrader: (10)

Return of the Mad Archiver!!

MaxWolf

iTrader: (1)

ooh, very interesting. I hope someone gets it and writes a how-to. This would be one heck of a mod. The rerouting of sensors would seem discouraging, but totally possible.

Ramius83

So, basically, the 5th gen manifold will bolt on to 4th Gen engine and make better numbers than a MEVI? I am so confused lol. Is the set-up of the 5th Gen manifold similar to that of the MEVI, with there being an actuator, vacuum canister, solenoid, etc? I have a spare 5th Gen manifold sitting in the closet right now.....

Ramius83

If you got a junkyard manifold it would have all the sensors in the manifold. All you would have to do is just wire those sensors into your existing wires on your car going to your old sensors.......granted that the sensors are very similar in resistance, polarity, etc.......

hacim105

iTrader: (6)

I hope some one does this because it will be incredible!!!

Dave B

The 2K-2K1 manifold won't fit the 4th gen because the manifold is too big. It's too tall and wide to clear the hood and the firewall. There are also issues with 5th gen throttle body and the overall orientation of the throttle body in relation to the 4th gen. Also, the wiring and overall design of the 2k-2k1 manifold is far more complicated than the MEVI.


Dave

MaxWolf

iTrader: (1)

I don't need my hood.

nismo2020

iTrader: (1)

bags tried this some years ago. i think the problem he ran it to was actuating the valves. read->ecu

emax02

iTrader: (1)

Rumor has it that JWT put a 2000 manifold on a 4th gen a long time ago. Also I don't see why the orientation of the 5th gen TB would matter? If the throttle cable is what's worrying you, you could simply replace it with a 2000 one. Also the intake manifold is not to tall either, seeing that a 4th gen FSTB fits onto a 5th gen If it was to tall the bar would simply not fit.



Someone should rent a 2001 max and just swap everything over, no would ever notice, lol.

Dave B

When Russ had his 2K1 Max, we took measurements and the 2k-2k1 manifold would hit the firewall on the 4th gen and the height was ~.5" too tall. On the 4th gen, the FSTB sits behind most of the manifold and sits pretty low. The issue with 2k-2k1 manifold is forward of the FSTB.


Dave

dwapenyi

iTrader: (3)

Even if it was possible, given all the headaches, I know it would be better, but would it be that much better than an MEVI?? I see the 5th gen manifold keeping the torque up in the mid-range better than the MEVI, and maybe a little bit more top end. But that's about it.

DW

emax02

iTrader: (1)

Hmm, sounds like Russ screwed up his measurements Heres why.. The engine compartment is the EXACT same on a 4th gen and 5th gen. The motor is mounted at the same points too, so its position in the engine compartmeent is unchanged. This means only one thing, the fire wall in relationship to the intake manifold is indentical. I can't see how it could possbibly be differnt. It can't be.. Only way it could be is if the engine compartment was different or if the motor was mounted differnt, neither of which is true.

As for the motor being to tall.. I will have to look at how a FSTB lines up on a 2000-2001 max. Seeing that JWT made this work I find it unlikely that hood clearance would be an issue.

iansw

iTrader: (7)

You only gained 6hp peak, but I bet you gained +35-40hp at 6000RPM.

People don't understand it's not aobut the peak, but about the curve.

A car with 200hp all the way to redline is going to beat a car that's 100hp all the way to 5k, then goes to 300hp peak.

Which is why NA Maxes smoke NAWSED Civics at the track daily.

IanS

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

Whoa old thread.

I actually lost peak power with my MEVI (dyno'd on different machines however) but my car is still faster

Nismo87SE

The 5th gen IM doesn't lose any torque between 3300-6500 over the stock IM or mevi. Matter of fact a 5th gen IM would make 7-13whp more than a MEVI from 3000-7000rpm. As Dave B pointed out good luck getting it to fit.

RussMaxManiac

Emax, Dave did the measurements in Kansas City when I was there. He is right. It really does not look like it will clear the hood on the front of a 4th gen. The 5th gen hood is a bit taller in the middle.

The front of the Intake manifold will touch the hood.

Dave B

Thanks Russ.

Ethan, Russ wasn't the one that took measurements, I was. The issue with the firewall is that the rear of the manifold will only give you ~1/4" of clearance. With how much the VQ torques in it's mounts, the manifold will constantly be hitting firewall.

From what I remember, the 5th gen is based on the 4th gen platform, but it's been extended. The 5th gen has a longer wheelbase and more interior room (in some areas). The hood is indeed taller on the 5th gen. We simply measured parts of the fenders in relation to hood and compared them to the 4th gen.


Dave

infinitiblast

iTrader: (2)

Hmmm as far as the wiring problems I have a 99 sel....now from what I understand my ecu and wiring harness are the same as a 2k-2k1. I've looked at both engine bays and seem to have the same plugs. My ecu is also one of those no self diagnostic ones, I have to plug into it with an obd 2 scanner. In anycase the point I am making here is I wonder if the 99.5 sel would take this modification easier than the 98 and belows. I dont know maybe .....but if I can find an intake manifold off a 2k or 2k1 cheap I would give it a shot.

DAREN

iTrader: (3)

i have a 5th gen (fed spec) intake manifold @ my house for the last few weeks. when i compared it to the spare 4t gen vq motor in my garage i noticed the obviouse difference in the throttle body,egr pipe,iacv system. the only problem i see with this retrofit aside from already stated clearance issues is the iacv system. the 5IM has a power valve and it operates the same way the VE30DE or MEVI system works. if can ever get my hands on a diagram for the VQ-K iacv system it would be a great help. as far as the egr is concearned i would just get one from 5th gen and use that as well as the trottle body.

infinitiblast

iTrader: (2)

So you notice the clearance issue too ehh?? wont fit are you sure?

emax02

iTrader: (1)

You did the measurements? Even worse

The 5th gen platform was made a little longer by cutting and extending the rear of the car. To my knowledge the under hood peramaters are identical(from right/left and forward/back). As for the hood clearance, I will take your word on the 5th gen hood being higher. I still question the fact that the hood clearance would be an issue. If only JWT would talk, or was "them doing it" just BS?

SWEETSOUND2001

iTrader: (30)

So if this works, you get the best of both worlds? VQ30DE cams, VQ30DE-K manifold and ME power delivery?

krismax

iTrader: (15)

no room at firewall use a hammer,cut the hood.they do this stuff with swaps in hondas.

Sprint

iTrader: (10)

i am really not a virgin.. seriously

dwapenyi

iTrader: (3)

It would be better than the MEVI b/c the MEVI is a pseudo variable intake. Not a true one. The MEVI uses engineering cleverness (and it is quite clever) to act like it has long runners and short runners. As with every compromise, it ain't perfect.
The VE-K motor in the 5th gen has a true dual intake, a set of short runners, and a set of long ones.

DW

mzmtg

iTrader: (11)

You obviously dont know how either one works. It doesnt matter if you use two seperate sets of runners or not. As long as the resonance tuning is achieved, you get the power.

dwapenyi

iTrader: (3)

Well then, since you do know, why don't you explain it, rather than resorting to the simple childish act of shooting me down, Mr. Moderator Extremis? That resonance tuning is a start. Finish it.

DW

emax02

iTrader: (1)

This is one of your more informitive posts.

mzmtg

iTrader: (11)

When the intake valve closes, it sends a shockwave of energy back up the intake runner. When this wave gets to the open volume of the intake plenum, it bounces back down the runner. If the intake valve opens again, right when this shockwave arrives, more air gets "rammed" into the port.

This shock wave takes time to bounce up and down the intake runner, obviously. When the engine is turning at lower RPM the time between the intake valve opening events is relatively long. This means that the shockwave needs to take a long time to bounce back and forth. This is why longer intake runners make power at lower RPM.

At high RPM the intake valves are opening more frequently. This means you want the shockwave to travel back and forth more quickly. This is why shorter runners make more power at higher RPM.

The 5th gen uses two complete sets of intake runners to do this. At the switchover point, it closes off the long runners completely and opens the short runners.

The 4th gen VI uses an additional plenum volume that is mounted much closer to the intake ports. When it switches over, it does not close off the long runners. It open valves that allow the shock waves to bounce off of the additional plenum volume located more closely.

Either way, the showckwaves gets bounced back sooner for more high-RPM power. One is not inherently better than the other. They are just different system that can be used depending on cost, complexity, serviceability, etc...

Dreizehn

iTrader: (4)

Good explination...

Dave B

True, but more energy is lost and the truth is the MEVI is not as good as the 2K-2K1 manifold. By simply looking at the HP and TQ curves you'll see why those short runners are more effective. The 2K-2K1 manifold makes more power (peak) and takes that power straight to 6500rpms. The MEVI only peaks at 6000 and falls slowly after that. There is an advantage to a dual stage runner design.


Dave