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Just sent this to Nissan...

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Old Dec 5, 2006 | 12:25 PM
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Just sent this to Nissan...

I sent the following letter to the dealership service manager, the dealership general manager, and Nissan North America's customer service center. I don't really expect it to get me anywhere, but it made me feel better...

I have telephoned the Service manager at Hamilton Nissan three times starting on November 24 through December 4, 2006. Having not received a response of any kind, my logical next step is to move up the ladder.

I would like to take this opportunity to bring to your attention a situation that I feel warrants attention. I have been a very loyal Nissan customer, owning 2 Nissan Maximas, an Infiniti I30t, and a Sentra SE-R SpecV. It is unfortunately my most recent vehicle, the Sentra, that has given me more problems in the last 25,000 (of 52,000 total) miles than the more than 300,000 miles on the Maximas and the Infiniti, combined.

I purchased the Sentra, a 2003 model, as a commuter car that was supposed to be fun to drive. With 28,000 miles on the odometer at the time of purchase, I knew that I had existing factory warranty for both bumper-to-bumper and powertrain coverage. Being an informed consumer, I researched recalls, reliability, overall cost of ownership, and other factors before purchasing the Sentra. Truth be told, I wanted another Maxima, but I already had one that I planned to keep, and I drove the Sentra on a whim. I liked the vehicle, despite some warnings on the internet regarding problems with the QR25DE motor that comes in the SpecV model of the Sentra. With the existing warranty, and seeing the Nissan had begun recalling vehicles exhibiting the symptoms that I had read about on the internet, I felt confident that the problems would be resolved and that I would have a fun, reliable, economical vehicle for years to come.

At the time of the purchase, the vehicle was fine, and I was largely free of problems until approximately 50,800 miles. At that time, things turned bad quickly. My engine suffered a catastrophic failure that was later attributed to a small screw that had fallen from the butterfly valve in the intake manifold and had dropped down into the combustion chamber, basically destroying the engine from the inside. At Hamilton Nissan’s service repair facility, this was fixed under the Nissan powertrain warranty.

This was unfortunately not the end of my problems with the QR25DE, nor with the service (or disservice) that I received following the replacement of the QR25DE in my Sentra. Within several hundred miles, at approximately 51,500 miles, I was experiencing intermittent but severe hesitation and loss of throttle response. I took the car into the dealership twice, and the second time (around 52,000 miles) it was determined that a crank position sensor recall would likely remedy the problem. The vehicle was dropped off on November 22, 2006. After the service was started on Nov 24, I received a call stating that the battery had died and would need to be replaced. Given the information provided over the phone, I authorized this, despite reservations, given the fact that the car had no charging or electrical problems when it was dropped off. Somehow, over the time that the dealership had the car, the battery was so completely drained that it could not be started with a jump or a charge, and the battery could not be recharged. When the vehicle went in, it was not even experiencing hard starts. Once in the hands of the dealership, it became a useless hunk of metal. In an attempt to get the vehicle back as soon as possible, I authorized the approximately $70 for the battery, and an astronomical $35 to replace the battery. (On a side note, any automotive technician who cannot replace a battery in under 5 minutes needs to look for another profession. Nissan’s labor guide in this instance is a rip-off.) I was told that to perform the recall, the charging system had to be at 100%. If not for that, I would have bought my own battery, driven it to the dealership, and installed it myself. In the end, this was a totally unnecessary step, as the recalled components was not determined (according to the dealership) to be the cause of my problems.

Replacement of the battery was not the end, however. Two hours later, I was called and informed that the car was not ready because once the battery was replaced, it was determined that the alternator had failed. This was a nearly $400 fix, including labor. Again, I had experienced no problems with the charging system in the vehicle prior to this event, and though there is a statistically small chance of spontaneous failure of a component such as an alternator, my research determined that there are four primary causes of alternator failure.

The first is a manufacturing defect. This is a simple quality control issue, usually manifesting itself early in the life of the vehicle, because after as little as a few dozen operational cycles, one of the functional components (magnets, windings, connections, or bearings) simply fails. At 52,000 miles, it is fairly safe to say that manufacturing defect is an unlikely culprit.

The second is simple wear and tear. This is just the aging of the component due to repeated use. While this COULD be a factor in the failure of my alternator, if Nissan uses alternators with a duty cycle of only 52,000 miles, please rest assured that this will be my LAST Nissan. Like I said, my last 3 Nissans, all VQ30DE-equipped Maxima/I30 vehicles, had over 300,000 miles on them, all with original alternators. Prior to that, I had 3 Jeep Cherokees, with over 250,000 miles on them. NEVER have I had an alternator fail.

This takes us to a third cause of failure, excessive draw on an alternator. When called upon to operate in excess of rated capacity, the windings can fail. Since ALL electrical and charging components of the Sentra were 100% stock, this was not a factor. Many alternators are installed in vehicles with a rating that is 10-25% in EXCESS of the estimated maximum draw for that vehicle. In all of my Jeeps, additional components created increased load, all without failure of the OEM alternator. Given the stock nature of the Sentra, that means that the alternator was either inadequate for the vehicle (unlikely), or that this was NOT the cause of my premature failure.

The final cause of premature alternator failure is a faulty connection. Arcing (caused by a short-circuit or by irregular connections) can cause literally thousands of operational cycles in mere seconds, causing a buildup of heat and/or irregular current draws, which are a primary cause of a premature failure of the functional components. One very common cause of this is improper wiring, loose connections to the battery, and loose ground connections. Since Hamilton Nissan was the last entity to touch my alternator (re-installing it following the replacement of my long-block) this would place them in a position of fault. Prior to the replacement of the long block, I had no problems. After the replacement, a problem that is very likely to have been caused by mis-installation, surfaced. I have explained why the other 3 likely causes of failure are unlikely, given the circumstances. Logically, installation error is the likely cause of the premature failure of the alternator, and the untimely demise of the battery. While I can accept that a 3-year-old battery would be a maintenance issue, possibly requiring replacement in the near future, paying $35 for labor to do so is borderline fraud. Charging for 30 minutes of labor when it clearly took less time than that is unconscionable, in my opinion.

On top of that, to REFUSE to consider that installer error could have caused the alternator error, and then to say that that installer error would not be a part of the 12,000, 12 month warranty on parts and labor related to the long block replacement, is ridiculous. Hamilton was the last entity to touch my alternator, and within several hundred miles a component that was last touched by a Hamilton technician failed, taking with it a third component (the battery). The approximately 700 miles that it operated seem like a reasonable amount of time for one of the connections to work loose, particularly given that the first 500 miles were driven gingerly during the motor’s break-in period. On top of the fact that the car was last serviced at Hamilton, the car miraculously drove into the dealership, drove around to the service garage, and started up for the tech to do the recall. It just so happened to die- a complete and total failure- just as the idle relearn was to be performed. I don’t know how such a coincidence occurs, but I am not at all pleased with the totality of the circumstances surrounding this situation. If you warranty your work, then honor that warranty on workmanship- because alternators don’t just die at 52,000 on an entirely stock electrical system. If you refuse to honor the workmanship warranty, I will have no other course of action but to pursue further avenues to address my concerns.

I don’t want to imply that I think that anyone at Hamilton intentionally sabotaged my vehicle. I do wish to explicitly state that I believe that the cause of my alternator failure, and the subsequent battery drain, were caused by improper installation of the alternator by a Hamilton Nissan worker during the reassembly of my QR25DE during warranty work. It was not the only mistake made during re-assembly, but I will save those details for later correspondence, if necessary. My frustration is that there was absolutely NO consideration given to the fact that the most likely cause of the failures was installer error. In my mind, the coincidence between Hamilton service work and subsequent component failure is too much to accept.
To the Nissan corp rep ONLY, I also included the following (just for fun):
What is odd about this situation is that my VIN was not affected by the voluntary recall in place at the time of the incident, nor has it been included in any subsequent recall expansions, despite the fact that this is clearly a problem in vehicles not in the recall range. Nissan has, to date, chosen not to expand the VIN range for the recall, despite the fact that there are documented reports that vehicles outside of the recalled range are impacted by this flaw. Equally alarming, there is a second recall for a failure of the emissions pre-cat in many QR25DE-equipped Sentras and Altimas, but despite similar reports of vehicles outside of the recall being affected, no expansion has been done to address these concerns. Between the pre-cat failure issue and the butterfly screw issue, many QR25DE-equipped vehicles that are out of warranty are basically failures waiting to happen.
Old Dec 5, 2006 | 12:44 PM
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What is the purpose of your letter- by writing this you had hoped for a certain result.

Looks like you took the car in for a throttle response issue, and the dealership took you in for a ride and made you pay for a new battery and alternator... I'd say bring the car back to running state and get rid of it.
Old Dec 5, 2006 | 12:51 PM
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Although we probably all know the outcome to this, good luck anyway.

The first step is to always write a letter outlining your concerns and action you would like taken to address them. Hopefully they at least take the time to write you back, regardless of what their response is.
Old Dec 5, 2006 | 01:06 PM
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You may be surprised what being persistent and calm with nissan reps can get you. It took me about 2 months and plenty of headache but Nissan eventually authorized the repainting of my entire 2k1 AE (minus ae bodykit) at no cost. Paint still looked great 4 years later and did not hurt trade in value to the dealer.
Old Dec 5, 2006 | 01:24 PM
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Jeep! Jeep!
Old Dec 5, 2006 | 01:26 PM
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Originally Posted by Y2KMaxGXE-R
What is the purpose of your letter- by writing this you had hoped for a certain result.

Looks like you took the car in for a throttle response issue, and the dealership took you in for a ride and made you pay for a new battery and alternator... I'd say bring the car back to running state and get rid of it.
What I want is a refund for the work that was done for things that were NOT wrong when the car went into the dealership. They claim that the hesitation/throttle issue was due to a faulty alternator. I say it was due to the alternator- but due to misinstallation- not a "bad" alternator.

We'll see how they respond.
Old Dec 5, 2006 | 01:27 PM
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Originally Posted by MacGarnicle
Although we probably all know the outcome to this, good luck anyway.

The first step is to always write a letter outlining your concerns and action you would like taken to address them. Hopefully they at least take the time to write you back, regardless of what their response is.
Of course we do- they will tell me "thanks for buying 4 Nissans- we hope you like your next car."
Old Dec 5, 2006 | 01:29 PM
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Originally Posted by MrGone
Jeep! Jeep!
LOL...3 Cherokees was enough. I need better MPG. I borrowed a Grand Cherokee (WJ) for a few weeks after the birth of my daughter, and my wife chose a Pilot to replace her Maxima. We just bought it last week.

I'd trade in the spec NOW but I am too far upside down on it...
Old Dec 5, 2006 | 01:46 PM
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Call nissan Corporate Customer service.
Old Dec 5, 2006 | 02:50 PM
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i found a typo if you haven't sent it yet, you used "the" instead of the word "that" in the 3rd paragraph. otherwise, good luck you!
Old Dec 5, 2006 | 04:52 PM
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Well, this was unexpected. I got a call tonight at home at 7:30 from the dealership service manager, who was told by the general manager to call me right then. He was very professional, and after asking for some clarification, offered to refund the labor charges. I feel that this is fair- whether they were needed or not, I got new parts. I can accept those prices, because they were actually reasonable. His offer to refund the labor (all of it) was unexpected. I accepted it, and agreed to consider the issue to be "resolved" if contacted in a follow-up call or correspondence.
Old Dec 5, 2006 | 05:07 PM
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Wow,i would never thought this to be the outcome...

Consider yourself lucky i guess..
Old Dec 5, 2006 | 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by phenryiv1
Well, this was unexpected. I got a call tonight at home at 7:30 from the dealership service manager, who was told by the general manager to call me right then. He was very professional, and after asking for some clarification, offered to refund the labor charges. I feel that this is fair- whether they were needed or not, I got new parts. I can accept those prices, because they were actually reasonable. His offer to refund the labor (all of it) was unexpected. I accepted it, and agreed to consider the issue to be "resolved" if contacted in a follow-up call or correspondence.
[borat]NICE![/borat]





.
Old Dec 5, 2006 | 08:32 PM
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Nice, I never even knew that you were having problems with your SE-R?!

Congrats on the outcome!
Old Dec 5, 2006 | 09:41 PM
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Well that was fast. Glad to see it worked itself out for the most part.
Old Dec 5, 2006 | 11:20 PM
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lucky you.. but my theory still exists... nissan service in north america is scandelous... they'll try to scam every single person that brings their car into their service department....
that's why i do EVERYTHING myself

you should check your parts; the alternator and battery to make sure its brand new
if i were to guess at it, they just said your battery died, and then your alternator as well..
they probably already put it in when they changed out the block and called afterward to make you pay for it
Old Dec 6, 2006 | 05:06 AM
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Originally Posted by getbigtony
lucky you.. but my theory still exists... nissan service in north america is scandelous... they'll try to scam every single person that brings their car into their service department....
that's why i do EVERYTHING myself

you should check your parts; the alternator and battery to make sure its brand new
if i were to guess at it, they just said your battery died, and then your alternator as well..
they probably already put it in when they changed out the block and called afterward to make you pay for it
No, the block was changed out about a month before the hesitation problem came up. Both are new components, with the alternator being NEW, as opposed to a reman.

In the end, at least they stepped up. Part of it, I think, was due to how I covered all of my bases. I am sure that they figured me to be one of those customers who won't just go away, so they decided to appease me now rather than dragging this out.

Legally, I would be SOL if I tried to take it to court to PROVE it was their fault, so this is a victory for me.
Old Dec 6, 2006 | 05:23 AM
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my nissan dealer is a complete ripoff... but then again the techs at my dealer always do the job right.. price is just unbelievable
Old Dec 6, 2006 | 07:28 AM
  #19  
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had a similar experience with a dealer, i emailed them and the district manager had them call me up as soon as he saw the email, problem fixed.

remember...the squeaky wheel gets the oil.
Old Dec 6, 2006 | 09:10 AM
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wow nice, I can't believe you won this and that nissan stepped up
Old Dec 6, 2006 | 10:44 AM
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Congrats, who knew Nissan could be understanding.
Old Dec 6, 2006 | 11:04 AM
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as someone who works for a dealership and has helped so many .org and nycmaximas.org members, it was poor diagnosis of your concern.
I'm glad you had your issues resolved, and your dealership is assisting you with reimbursement.
Old Dec 9, 2006 | 07:25 AM
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This line kills me.
I authorized the approximately $70 for the battery, and an astronomical $35 to replace the battery. (On a side note, any automotive technician who cannot replace a battery in under 5 minutes needs to look for another profession. Nissan’s labor guide in this instance is a rip-off.)
$105 for a new battery installed is a very fair deal. Don't ever come into my shop for petty work like that. Your out of your mind for mentioning that. "astronomical $35

However I do think something is fishy about the dead battery and the alty issue. But perhaps, just maybe your loss of throttle response was actually the alty's fault? A surging or unstable electrical system can cause lots of issues. Including cooking a relatively good battery in a very short time. Did you even give that a thought? Components do fail from time to time and it was only a alty, plus Nissan was very good to you with the engine issue. I think you should have given that letter idea another thought before you mailed it.
Old Dec 9, 2006 | 08:26 AM
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how about them EERS
Old Dec 9, 2006 | 02:16 PM
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Originally Posted by njmaxseltd
This line kills me.


$105 for a new battery installed is a very fair deal. Don't ever come into my shop for petty work like that. Your out of your mind for mentioning that. "astronomical $35

However I do think something is fishy about the dead battery and the alty issue. But perhaps, just maybe your loss of throttle response was actually the alty's fault? A surging or unstable electrical system can cause lots of issues. Including cooking a relatively good battery in a very short time. Did you even give that a thought? Components do fail from time to time and it was only a alty, plus Nissan was very good to you with the engine issue. I think you should have given that letter idea another thought before you mailed it.
Tom, you know that I respect you a lot, so holefully you do't take this wrong,but $35 DOES seem high to me to just replace a battery. 4 bolts (including the tie-down) is 5 minutes, tops. I JUST did it inthe Maxima the previous weekend. On top of that, like I said, it was FINE before it went in, not even having hard starts. I would never, EVER go to a shop for a battery install. THe point was, it was NOT bad going in, so it should not have been necessary, and if I had even thought that it was bad, I wuld have done it myself. $70 was the battery was a pretty fair price. Charging 30 minutes for a 5-minute job was my issue.

I did give thought to things spontaneously failing, but the coincidence of it happening 700 miles after an engine replacement was suspictious, especially given the fact that I found several things that were loose (hoses/clamps) and one that was tight (oil filter was so tight that I had to hammer a screwdriver through it- and I have NEVER had to do that before in 14 years of changing my own oil). Given the other "attachment" or "assembly" related misques, I think that it is more likely than not that he alternator cable(s) were loose, which probably led to arcing and failure.

Just my opinion.

About sending the letter, I did that ONLY after FOUR calls to the dealership over 2 weeks went unreturned.

Originally Posted by njmaxseltd
Nissan was very good to you with the engine issue.
That was pure warranty. They recalled thousands of engines that had the same problem (but not mine) and mine was still under warranty. They did not have a lot of wiggle room there. They did it fast and w/o arguing, but if they had bucked me on the issue, I'd have just started at the courthouse in the morning.
Old Dec 9, 2006 | 03:05 PM
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Yeah $35 to unscrew some bolts and lift a battery (and it's not a marine battery so it's not like it's even that heavy) is ridiculous. It takes no skill at all, a child could do it.

edit - Just wanted to elaborate on the ridiculousness of this.

Let's assume that labor costs is $100 per hour (which is most likely an overestimate)

Then let's assume that the worker is slow and/or retarded, and it takes 10 minutes to replace a battery.

Total price, at $100/hour for 10 minutes of work is approx $16.70.

Hell, let's assume a chimpanzee is doing it and it takes a whole 20 minutes to replace.

Again, at $100/hour for 20 minutes of work, it is $33.40, STILL under the price he paid.

Astronomical is an understatement.
Old Dec 9, 2006 | 10:44 PM
  #27  
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let's pretend i work for nissan and i just read this, by some miracle, i read it all and didn't have the secretary throw it away and file it under "received"

i got very bored and confused reading this. so i have a few questions for you:

1. why are you writing? to complain? to educate me? to tell me how much you know? to tell me a car story?
2. what do you want?
3. who do you blame?
4. what exactly do you blame?

if you sent this to them, i doubt it will produce much
Old Dec 9, 2006 | 10:47 PM
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Originally Posted by phenryiv1
LOL...3 Cherokees was enough. I need better MPG. I borrowed a Grand Cherokee (WJ) for a few weeks after the birth of my daughter, and my wife chose a Pilot to replace her Maxima. We just bought it last week.

I'd trade in the spec NOW but I am too far upside down on it...

mpg is overrated. for each mpg less than 20 your smile extends an additional 1" to either side of the mouth
Old Dec 9, 2006 | 10:55 PM
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cliffs?.....
Old Dec 10, 2006 | 06:08 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by † ErV †
let's pretend i work for nissan and i just read this, by some miracle, i read it all and didn't have the secretary throw it away and file it under "received"

i got very bored and confused reading this. so i have a few questions for you:

1. why are you writing? to complain? to educate me? to tell me how much you know? to tell me a car story?
2. what do you want?
3. who do you blame?
4. what exactly do you blame?

if you sent this to them, i doubt it will produce much
Did you bother to read the thread?

1. I am writing because want you to know that one of your dealerships did not return FOUR phone calls. I wanted you to know WHY I called them. I am not really complaing so much as I am informing you of how a dealership is representing your brand. And on top of that, since I ALSO sent the letter the the manager of the dealership, I want you (as the manager) that your service manager ignores phone calls.
2. I want the dealership service manager to return my call. Or the dealershipgen eral manager. In a fairyland, I want you to expand the recall on the problem that blew my engine but that did not include my VIN to actually include ALL of the affected vehicles.
3. I don't blame anyone- yet. I want to discuss the matter with the dealership service manager.
4. See above- no blame yet.

And it DID work. I got a call within 4 hours and was offered a refund of all labor charges for the service. THEIR offer, not my demand.
Originally Posted by phenryiv1
Well, this was unexpected. I got a call tonight at home at 7:30 from the dealership service manager, who was told by the general manager to call me right then. He was very professional, and after asking for some clarification, offered to refund the labor charges. I feel that this is fair- whether they were needed or not, I got new parts. I can accept those prices, because they were actually reasonable. His offer to refund the labor (all of it) was unexpected. I accepted it, and agreed to consider the issue to be "resolved" if contacted in a follow-up call or correspondence.
Old Dec 14, 2006 | 09:12 PM
  #31  
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glad things worked out for you -- a case you don't hear very often (mainly because people only post when things do not go in their favor)
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