Frezny

I've been doing alittle engine research these past few weeks. (I'm getting a new house with space enough for a "project" VQ engine to build on the side). In search for some aggressive cam techniques, I came accross and explination of the honda Vtec and Ferrari's method for cam optimization. .:Gears in Brain start churning:. If the honda can get and extra 30 HP out of their 145 base HP GS engines, than what could our VQ get? Has anybody reasearched a method for doing this? Keep in mind, this is a very early concept and I'm sure that I may have overlooked some basic priciples. Guys running boost would really benifit from this, no?

SithMax

I heard a rumor that Stillen was going to be releasing some cams for the VQ this fall, but we'll see....

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

A set of cams to replace your current ones is possible. But none are available yet and I doubt you will gain 30hp.

Now, if you are inferring that you want to somehow make a backyard VTEC,VTC,VVTI etc... forget it. Not only does is require the proper cams but more importantly, it requires the proper valvetrain to actuate/regulate these mechanisms. Plus a ecu to control everything. This type of work is beyond this maxima club by about a factor of 10.

Frezny

I've hear about some becoming available, but I'm looking for bigger gains.

From just a more agressive profile for the cam, yes, you are right. 30 HP is quite impossible alone. Aftermarket cams are only really ideal for one rpm level, and then they lose their efficiency at other RPM levels.

That's kinda what I'm getting to. Not necessarily a backyard version, but has anyone thought to develop a manufactured and tested "Vtec" mod for engines other than Honda's. I'm sure there are certain pattent's that one must be sure no to infringe upon.


Needs adjustable cams, (I'm not sure the necessity of a valvetrain), calculations to give optimum HP at each RPM, and I'm sure we could bypass the ECU and create and alternative controlling device.

I know that Ferrari's don't adjust the shape of the lobes, but rather they use a 3D lobe with different profiles along the lobes depth. The entire cam shaft moves laterally to change the lobe shape with each moment.

1. I really think the toughest part is calculating what the "Optimal" HP profile is.
2. I have a friend who's father is a machinest, he can build the shaft for me without any problem.
3. Developing an on-board computer or mechanism that moves the shaft with the RPMs is last on the list.

I'll give it all a level 7 out of ten, but still difficult nontheless.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

I think you misunderstand what's needed to do this. I'm sorry but you are glossing over some of the most important and expensive items needed to do this. The cams and ecu are piddly squat compared to what is needed to fit cam altering profile or timing devices into heads that were not originally designed for it. Without going into detail, the most you could ever hope to gain would be about 30hp. But the cost of this would probably exceed $30,000. It's more like $40,000. I would rather spend $3,600 and supercharge my 4th or 5th gen.

Here is a simple example. Nismo developed a set of dohc heads for the old L24-28 Datsun Z inline 6 block. 20 years ago, the cost $10,000. This was dohc only, no fancy cam altering devices, no ecu tweaks, etc....

Note: How much do you think it would cost just to re-engineer the timing chain assembly and the associated hardware to accomodate the 100% custom cam altering valvetrain that you just spend $10,000 to get billet cnc machined?

Frezny

Fitting DOHC on and original SOHC is a far more intensive task than what I am proposing.

I'm not understanding why the timing chain assembly would have to be changed, or the heads for that matter. Like I said, I don't fully understand. I'm not well versed in engine mechanics or that of the VQ for that matter, so I'm here trying to get a grasp on an issue that could be benificial. Does everyone else think it's too costly a venture for too little a gain?

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

No not really. Fitting dohc heads in this case is child's play relative to this.

Frenzy, take a look at this link. It explains all the different ways of cam profile and timing assemblies from all the makers. It's a super great link. It added to my knowledge.

Take a look how this stuff is actuated.
http://www.fortunecity.com/silversto...tech_index.htm

maxdrvr847

iTrader: (1)

yeah wasnt stealin suppose to release cams last fall

Frezny

NICE link! I'll repost once I read up a little more.

-Frez

LoveSick

Jeff92e is the pro!

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Yup, just wait until I get my VTEC controller for my VTC Nissan. Watch out!

Hey, that's not a bad idea. lol

LoveSick

you mean air/fuel controller right?

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Nope why?

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

As Jeff said, you are missing the basic idea here... you would need an entirely new custom fabricated cylinder head to do this. They say nothing's impossible, but I'm going to go out on a limb and say no one will ever, ever do this for the VQ, or any other car for that matter, that doesnt have a variable cam option from the factory. You might as well just design and machine and build you own custom engine and put it in there, there is no possibility of this ever happening unless nissan itself designs it. Its far beyond the scope of any member this ORG has or ever will have.

dmbmaxima2k2

iTrader: (1)

this project is IMPOSSIBLE. i'll wait for the stealin ones.

Turbo95Max

iTrader: (25)

ok lets forget the Variable cam/cam gear setup.

There are companies that will custom make cams for the VQ, Problem i think is finding the right combination of power/driveability. I dont know for supercharged cars, but a Turbo cams is completely different from an NA cams. Turbo cams idle smooth too, try getting a mild to wild NA cams to idle smooth! hehe

SithMax

Hey, how's that motor coming along?

Frezny

(little being the understatement of the century) But I'm not giving up hope yet

Turbo95Max

iTrader: (25)

Motor is coming along ok. Couldnt get head gaskets made cause of lack of interest from VQ peoples. We decided to go with stock head gasket and O-ringed block. Hopefully this combination along with detonation free tuning will work out ok. Its been 1 year already..

Black VQ

I just wanted to say that if you really want some variable cams that bad, even swapping a CL or TL-S engine into your Max should be easier.

gLok

Crower can make custom cams cant they? You would just have to research which specs work best with your current mods.

wrecked

Time to suspend what you know for a moment and think impossibilities.

Lets asssume for the sake of argument, that some form of variable timing could be developed for the Maxima. Lets also assume that it could be made available to the enthusiast for near or under $2k, depending of course on the engine model. Would this be something that you all would seriously support, or be willing to invest in?

wrecked

The reason I ask is, we are in fact developing a form of variable timing for a european spec car. It is going to take some time to do the work, but if we can successfully do it, its not unreasonable to see it happen for the Maxima.

SithMax

I think the answer to your question depends completely on the gains so there really IS no answer until you have at least some modest projections and even then no guarentees.

wrecked

I think the answer to your question depends completely on the gains so there really IS no answer until you have at least some modest projections and even then no guarentees. [/B][/QUOTE]

Fair enough, we're still moving foward in any case. And just exactly what gains would you need in order to support such a thing? Granted, we do not have any hard numbers, but we do believe that the gains could be quite good. Conservatively, we believe the vvt conversion could reap gains of about 7-10% increase in hp, and 10-15% increase in torque on the 89-94, and even more on the 94 1/2-99 models.
And you are correct, there are no guarantees. If folks are not going to show any interest, then there is obviously no value in persuing it from our stanpoint. That is why I posted the question.

dmbmaxima2k2

iTrader: (1)

Fair enough, we're still moving foward in any case. And just exactly what gains would you need in order to support such a thing? Granted, we do not have any hard numbers, but we do believe that the gains could be quite good. Conservatively, we believe the vvt conversion could reap gains of about 7-10% increase in hp, and 10-15% increase in torque on the 89-94, and even more on the 94 1/2-99 models.
And you are correct, there are no guarantees. If folks are not going to show any interest, then there is obviously no value in persuing it from our stanpoint. That is why I posted the question. [/B][/QUOTE]

how much money are these gonna cost, way too much for 10% more hp. i got 25%more from 800bucks worth of nos and that's with accesories.

Frezny

VVT is worth it for the people who are racing their cars. For the average Joe working to quicken up his Max, it's not economical, unless you have cash flow, but then again.... why would you spend it on a Max? Guys/Girls (gotta be PC now-days ) who race their civics for serious money don't mind spending two grand on a Mod that will give then 5%-10% power because they have already exhasuted all other options till then. Also, their cars are dirt cheap to begin with so it's money well spent. Don't forget the fact that all ricers are born with a Honda emblem in their mouth's, thus creating a larger demand market and causing aftermarket pricing to drop lower than we could ever hope for our Max's.

SithMax

Hey! I take offense to that... I'm a ricer and I HATE Hon-duhs. Well, I'm a wanna-be ricer, with my red dash and LCD screen. I'd have more non-sensical crap, but I can't afford it...

Frezny

wrecked

As I mentioned before, we are looking at something in the range of about 2k, or there abouts. The performance numbers are deliberately conservative, because we have not done any hard testing as of yet.

For perspective, the technology has been applied to a DSM 2.0L non turbo, 2 valve per cylinder engine. In the testing, the engine gained aprox 19 additional hp, but almost 30% in torque. Because of the design of the vvt conversions we are working on, we believe that we can see relatively close, if not better gains on a multivalve motor that breathes significantly better.

I understand the concern about pricing, but it does cost money to develop test and manufacture products, and we are footing the bill on the whole thing. I simply wanted to get a consensus of interest before we considered to do a conversion for the Maxima.

SithMax

Honestly, it looks like you guys are developing a great product for racers with an okay price tag in my book. But I don't race and can't afford to race. I honestly don't know how many Max's there are on the race tracks out there competing pro or semi-pro or even amatuer. I think that's where you need to do your marketing research. This is the type of product that seems outside the range of the everyday driver. Race cams are just way too aggressive.

Jeff92se

iTrader: (82)

Wrecked.

Boy I would LOVE to see some pictures of the varible cam tech your making for the DSM. Or at least a really good description

wrecked

This isn't being designed as a race application, although it is definitely doable. It is specifically for the daily driven vehicle. What we hope to accomplish with the vvt conversion is to reduce emmisions, reduce egt's, and improve gas mileage on a variety of cars. The significant side benefit will be improved power and torque in the parts of the rpm band that most folks use most, as well a beyond. If we were to implement the conversion onto a high revving motor, we believe it could help recoup some lost bottom end power, while enhancing mid and top end power as well. In fact, because the conversion is so different from conventional wisdom, we believe that the technology could be applied to a Honda VTEC motor, and still reap significant gains in power and torque. The motivation was to get productive feedback from folks for which variable timing has not been made available, and see if doing an application was worth pursuing.

SithMax

Hmm... Interesting. I'm definately curious. Now I wish I knew more about cams and how they worked so you could tell me more and I'd have some notion of what you were talking aboot.

wrecked

Once we have completed the prelimiary stuff (licensing,
teating, and hopefully the CARB certification) I expect to
have a rundown of what is being done. Right now however, we can't really discuss much about the setup until the lawyers have had their way with the contracts, patents, and so forth. Personally, I am very interested in the kind of affect this will have on a turbocharged DSM motor. but that will come soon enough, hopefully.

Frezny

Sith, check this out http://www.howstuffworks.com/camshaft.htm

Frezny

http://www.fortunecity.com/silverst.../tech_index.htm

Frezny

wrecked, I think all of us here are interested. That goes without saying. Most everybody here is looking for ways to keep their car running well, or they're searching for ways to make it run better. I'd be willing, in the not too recent future, to purchase some vvt for the Max. Hell, I started the damn thread! Just because we're balking at the cost now, doesn't mean that we wouldn't like it. Tell me this... Where are you located? & Where does your technical knowlege of VVT design, prototyping and manufacturing come from?

-Frez

wrecked

My company is located in NY, and the knowledge concerning vvt is based on research, similar to what was posted above. I am by no means a scholar in the area of this technology, but I have made an effort to study the various types of vvt design, and the virtues of each.

Frezny

Great. Be sure to keep the .org posted of your progress if you choose to take on a VQ30DE VVT project. Look at it this way. Most people here believe that $4,000 for a V2 SC is way out of their price range. Even when it only gives you about 60 HP initially, people want it, and most will find a way to get it. A stock NA engine will easily see 30-40 HP gains from a VVT system, and that's only for your estimated $2000 price tag. People with more efficient exhaust and intake systems, not to mention any means of forced induction, will reap even greater performance. Now my numbers may be a little off, but when compared to the numbers of a S/C, it's not that unreasonable a cost. Not to forget that until now, nothing like this has been available for us... OK, enough for now. BTW, where in NY. I'm a Mid-Hudson Valley native.