I think shifting to 4th is needed in the 1/4 mile (proof)
#1
I think shifting to 4th is needed in the 1/4 mile (proof)
A few Fridays ago I went to the track and ran some decent ets (14.8-14.9) with pretty high mphs. Out of my 7 runs, 6 were at or above 95mph. One run was was only a 15.0@93mph and all I did differently was wind out 2nd and 3rd to redline with no shift to 4th. This clearly proved to me, once again, that shifting to 4th and lower shift points are needed for a 4th gen VQ. After dynoing my car earlier in the year and finding where the torque curve occured and fell off, I was able to multiply out the best shift points for a modded 4th gen VQ 5 speed (y-pipe, b-pipe, intake). This is what I found to be the best shift points:
1-2 6600 (redline)
2-3 6300
3-4 6100
It should be noted that these numbers are as indicatedd by the tachometer which is 200-400 rpms off depending on gear. I've experimented with winding out all gears, not shifting to 4th, etc, and I've found that my best ets and especially mph come when I shift to 4th with the specified shift rpms. Seeing that the 4th gen VQ doesn't breath well past 5600rpms, but makes decent low end and mid range torque, earlier shifts are needed in the upper gears. Winding out 2nd and 3rd to redline puts you well past torque peak and won't let you accelerate as strong when you enter the next car. On each shift, you want to be entering the gear right before torque peak and ride the HP powerband.
Dave
1-2 6600 (redline)
2-3 6300
3-4 6100
It should be noted that these numbers are as indicatedd by the tachometer which is 200-400 rpms off depending on gear. I've experimented with winding out all gears, not shifting to 4th, etc, and I've found that my best ets and especially mph come when I shift to 4th with the specified shift rpms. Seeing that the 4th gen VQ doesn't breath well past 5600rpms, but makes decent low end and mid range torque, earlier shifts are needed in the upper gears. Winding out 2nd and 3rd to redline puts you well past torque peak and won't let you accelerate as strong when you enter the next car. On each shift, you want to be entering the gear right before torque peak and ride the HP powerband.
Dave
#2
Re: I think shifting to 4th is needed in the 1/4 mile (proof)
Once again, thanks for your wealth of knowledge. I'm gonna definitely keep this in mind when racing 1/4 or street. I'm always looking for an advantage. At first I thought UDP was a waste of time, but more and more I'm beginning to consider it.
#3
Good info Dave. From the 4th gen dyno plots Ive seen around here, the same seems to be true.
For me (5th gen), its easy. I just wind it out until the rev limit. I noted that if I shifted around 6000 rpm instead of 6500, Id lose about 0.2 second.
For me (5th gen), its easy. I just wind it out until the rev limit. I noted that if I shifted around 6000 rpm instead of 6500, Id lose about 0.2 second.
#4
4th for me really isn't an option. I'll hit the rev-limiter in 3rd before I cross the line.
Last time I was out I tried shifting to 4th early (5800) and was .2s slower and 2mph slower. I found that taking 3rd close to the redline gave me the best results.
Last time I was out I tried shifting to 4th early (5800) and was .2s slower and 2mph slower. I found that taking 3rd close to the redline gave me the best results.
#5
This brings up an interesting question
Given the wide ratios of the automagics and the fact that their tachs are just as inaccurate. What would be the best shift points? Even though its only 2 shifts, cartest says that 1-2 should be at 6400rpm and the 2-3 at 6100rpm. Since the stock tach is off, this means 1st gear should be run close to fuel cut. While the 2-3 should happen right at 6300-6400rpm as indicated on the tach.
#6
Originally posted by ejj5875
4th for me really isn't an option. I'll hit the rev-limiter in 3rd before I cross the line.
Last time I was out I tried shifting to 4th early (5800) and was .2s slower and 2mph slower. I found that taking 3rd close to the redline gave me the best results.
4th for me really isn't an option. I'll hit the rev-limiter in 3rd before I cross the line.
Last time I was out I tried shifting to 4th early (5800) and was .2s slower and 2mph slower. I found that taking 3rd close to the redline gave me the best results.
you are probably shifting at 6300 rpms and above ...
if you are hitting 95 mph traps.. you should be shifting in 4th.. what is your shift points?
#7
an unmodded 4th gen breathes even worse above 5600 or so correct? so unmodded guys should shift a few hundred rpms sooner i'd assume. my shift points on my 14.872 run were redline, 6300, 6100. I have yet to see a dyno plot of a TOTALLY stock 4th gen, though i have seen one with just an intake.
Also, are the RPM readings on a dyno plot actual or indicated... I assume actual.
Also, are the RPM readings on a dyno plot actual or indicated... I assume actual.
#8
Originally posted by ejj5875
4th for me really isn't an option. I'll hit the rev-limiter in 3rd before I cross the line.
Last time I was out I tried shifting to 4th early (5800) and was .2s slower and 2mph slower. I found that taking 3rd close to the redline gave me the best results.
4th for me really isn't an option. I'll hit the rev-limiter in 3rd before I cross the line.
Last time I was out I tried shifting to 4th early (5800) and was .2s slower and 2mph slower. I found that taking 3rd close to the redline gave me the best results.
Dave
#11
Originally posted by SprintMax
hmm.. you are shifting too late...
you are probably shifting at 6300 rpms and above ...
if you are hitting 95 mph traps.. you should be shifting in 4th.. what is your shift points?
hmm.. you are shifting too late...
you are probably shifting at 6300 rpms and above ...
if you are hitting 95 mph traps.. you should be shifting in 4th.. what is your shift points?
I have to shift into 4th. Otherwise I will hit the limiter in 3rd way before the line.
#12
Originally posted by Dave B
Try taking 3rd to an indicated 6100rpms and then shifting. Winding out 3rd close to redline won't do much because you'll be shifting to 4th just short of the finish line. When I grab 4th, I've still got a few hundred feet. When I've held on to 3rd, the VQ is absolutely screaming at 6500rpms as I cross the line. As shown by my dyno plot in 4th, my car is only making something like 130fwhp at 6500rpms. If I hit 4th, I'm going thru the lights with about 170fwhp (~5300rpms) and still accelerating.
Dave
Try taking 3rd to an indicated 6100rpms and then shifting. Winding out 3rd close to redline won't do much because you'll be shifting to 4th just short of the finish line. When I grab 4th, I've still got a few hundred feet. When I've held on to 3rd, the VQ is absolutely screaming at 6500rpms as I cross the line. As shown by my dyno plot in 4th, my car is only making something like 130fwhp at 6500rpms. If I hit 4th, I'm going thru the lights with about 170fwhp (~5300rpms) and still accelerating.
Dave
I've tried this and seen little to no difference. Matter of fact, my best time to date was when I held 3rd to close to the redline.
Dunno...all car's are different. I haven't dynoed, so I can't compare numbers with ya'.
#13
my times always suck when I shift to 4th. but this does vary with how much gas I have in my car (low gas = need 4th or hit limiter). I respect all your charts and theory but 3th gave me a 14.5 4th only a 14.7
#14
Shifting on daily drive
How bad is it to let your car hit up around 6K or so while racing? What I mean is - is there any damage your doing to your car, clutch engine wahtever? Also where do you guy shift at during your regular daily drive? Are you lettign it rev higher or do you keep it somewhat low? Just kind of curious.
SuDZ
SuDZ
#15
Originally posted by theblue
my times always suck when I shift to 4th. but this does vary with how much gas I have in my car (low gas = need 4th or hit limiter). I respect all your charts and theory but 3th gave me a 14.5 4th only a 14.7
my times always suck when I shift to 4th. but this does vary with how much gas I have in my car (low gas = need 4th or hit limiter). I respect all your charts and theory but 3th gave me a 14.5 4th only a 14.7
#17
Originally posted by SprintMax
i dunno.. i shift to 4th at about 6100 rpms in 3rd gear.. and i still have some to go before i get to the marker
E when i asked your shift points.. i was asking what rpms do you shift at for what gears
i dunno.. i shift to 4th at about 6100 rpms in 3rd gear.. and i still have some to go before i get to the marker
E when i asked your shift points.. i was asking what rpms do you shift at for what gears
That means that I am into 4th about 100ft before the line.
This is over a course of 50ish runs this summer.
#18
Originally posted by SprintMax
i dunno.. i shift to 4th at about 6100 rpms in 3rd gear.. and i still have some to go before i get to the marker
E when i asked your shift points.. i was asking what rpms do you shift at for what gears
i dunno.. i shift to 4th at about 6100 rpms in 3rd gear.. and i still have some to go before i get to the marker
E when i asked your shift points.. i was asking what rpms do you shift at for what gears
also, i dont know how you guys are winding 3rd to redline. i redline second at 65, isnt 3rd seems to be much taller..i think i've heard its good to 110...(i havent tried, and havent paid attention to the RPM in 3rd at 65mph.).
#19
you are actually making less power up at redline.. but if it works for you .. it works for you..
i usually do 6400 rpm in 1st
6200 rpm 2nd gear
6100 rpm 3rd gear
i usually do 6400 rpm in 1st
6200 rpm 2nd gear
6100 rpm 3rd gear
Originally posted by ejj5875
Redline for each gear. I've tried lower with different gears, and its never given me better times.
That means that I am into 4th about 100ft before the line.
This is over a course of 50ish runs this summer.
Redline for each gear. I've tried lower with different gears, and its never given me better times.
That means that I am into 4th about 100ft before the line.
This is over a course of 50ish runs this summer.
#20
Originally posted by SprintMax
you are actually making less power up at redline.. but if it works for you .. it works for you..
i usually do 6400 rpm in 1st
6200 rpm 2nd gear
6100 rpm 3rd gear
you are actually making less power up at redline.. but if it works for you .. it works for you..
i usually do 6400 rpm in 1st
6200 rpm 2nd gear
6100 rpm 3rd gear
#22
I've got well over 150 runs this year and I have a couple 14.5s that say my car is better in third and shifted at the redline... get a better time and I'll be thrilled to hear your science... but for now...... 3rd it is...
#23
Originally posted by theblue
I've got well over 150 runs this year and I have a couple 14.5s that say my car is better in third and shifted at the redline... get a better time and I'll be thrilled to hear your science... but for now...... 3rd it is...
I've got well over 150 runs this year and I have a couple 14.5s that say my car is better in third and shifted at the redline... get a better time and I'll be thrilled to hear your science... but for now...... 3rd it is...
#24
Originally posted by theblue
I've got well over 150 runs this year and I have a couple 14.5s that say my car is better in third and shifted at the redline... get a better time and I'll be thrilled to hear your science... but for now...... 3rd it is...
I've got well over 150 runs this year and I have a couple 14.5s that say my car is better in third and shifted at the redline... get a better time and I'll be thrilled to hear your science... but for now...... 3rd it is...
#26
Originally posted by theblue
my times always suck when I shift to 4th. but this does vary with how much gas I have in my car (low gas = need 4th or hit limiter). I respect all your charts and theory but 3th gave me a 14.5 4th only a 14.7
my times always suck when I shift to 4th. but this does vary with how much gas I have in my car (low gas = need 4th or hit limiter). I respect all your charts and theory but 3th gave me a 14.5 4th only a 14.7
#27
I come pretty darn close to powershifting on every gear change. A 3-4 shift is a simple flick of the wrist. According to my dyno plot, here are my power numbers from 5000 to 6500 rpms:
4400 162hp/194tq
4600 167/192
4800 171/187
5000 172/181
5200 175/177
5400 174/170
5600 171/160
5800 166/151
6000 158/139
6200 150/127
6400 138/111
6500 130/105
As you can see, there's hardly any power to be found after 6000rpms. It's pretty simple math to see that when you shift, you want to be riding the hp curve. Pretty much you want to be entering each gear at around 4800-4900rpms to ride the power. By over-extending the rpms to redline in 2nd and 3rd, you are entering the power curve too high and you don't get to ride it as long as you could.
You guys are right, it largely depends on the driver's ability to shift quickly. I've had over 30 runs this year with most being shifts into 4th. When I've shifted to 4th, I've hit lots of 14.7s/14.8s@94-95mph. Staying in 3rd always has netted me slower ets and lower mphs.
It's hard to compare our timeslips (theBlue, ejj5875) because you guys live in the northwest and I'm in the midwest. We're so close in et (within .15 seconds) I have no doubt our cars are pretty much equal. My trap speeds are also equal, if not higher than you trap speeds on average.
Dave
4400 162hp/194tq
4600 167/192
4800 171/187
5000 172/181
5200 175/177
5400 174/170
5600 171/160
5800 166/151
6000 158/139
6200 150/127
6400 138/111
6500 130/105
As you can see, there's hardly any power to be found after 6000rpms. It's pretty simple math to see that when you shift, you want to be riding the hp curve. Pretty much you want to be entering each gear at around 4800-4900rpms to ride the power. By over-extending the rpms to redline in 2nd and 3rd, you are entering the power curve too high and you don't get to ride it as long as you could.
You guys are right, it largely depends on the driver's ability to shift quickly. I've had over 30 runs this year with most being shifts into 4th. When I've shifted to 4th, I've hit lots of 14.7s/14.8s@94-95mph. Staying in 3rd always has netted me slower ets and lower mphs.
It's hard to compare our timeslips (theBlue, ejj5875) because you guys live in the northwest and I'm in the midwest. We're so close in et (within .15 seconds) I have no doubt our cars are pretty much equal. My trap speeds are also equal, if not higher than you trap speeds on average.
Dave
#29
I think alot of it has to do with the person's ability to shift quickly. I attribute my relatively good times to a good launch and the fact that I can shift incredibly quickly. I know that sounds weird, but people that ride with me have even commented on it. Maybe the guys like theblue and ejj that are getting better times without shifting to 4th can't make that 3-4 gear change as quickly, but they are great at the 1-2 and 2-3. Thats the only thing I can think of to explain it, because I'd think all of the maximas with basic bolt ons are making pretty much the same power and have the same shape hp and tq curve. Who knows. Just go with what works for you, and its all good.
#30
Originally posted by Nealoc187
I think alot of it has to do with the person's ability to shift quickly. I attribute my relatively good times to a good launch and the fact that I can shift incredibly quickly. I know that sounds weird, but people that ride with me have even commented on it. Maybe the guys like theblue and ejj that are getting better times without shifting to 4th can't make that 3-4 gear change as quickly, but they are great at the 1-2 and 2-3. Thats the only thing I can think of to explain it, because I'd think all of the maximas with basic bolt ons are making pretty much the same power and have the same shape hp and tq curve. Who knows. Just go with what works for you, and its all good.
I think alot of it has to do with the person's ability to shift quickly. I attribute my relatively good times to a good launch and the fact that I can shift incredibly quickly. I know that sounds weird, but people that ride with me have even commented on it. Maybe the guys like theblue and ejj that are getting better times without shifting to 4th can't make that 3-4 gear change as quickly, but they are great at the 1-2 and 2-3. Thats the only thing I can think of to explain it, because I'd think all of the maximas with basic bolt ons are making pretty much the same power and have the same shape hp and tq curve. Who knows. Just go with what works for you, and its all good.
The strange thing about my times is that I get better times if I leave it in 3rd as long as I can, opposed to Dave, who shifts a lot earlier.
#31
I would think you have to have similar 60'times to accurately compare the 3-4 shift theory. I will closely examine my timeslips AND shiftpoints during my next track visit. So far my best time and trap speed was done in THIRD gear but it was also my best 60' too (2.23).
Terry
__________________________________________________ __________________
98 SE/ 5 speed/ CAI/ UDP/ Stillen Y pipe/ RT cat/ Courtesy B pipe/ Stock muffler
FSTB/RSB/ Clear front bumper lenses/ Clear tails
14.73 @94.1
Terry
__________________________________________________ __________________
98 SE/ 5 speed/ CAI/ UDP/ Stillen Y pipe/ RT cat/ Courtesy B pipe/ Stock muffler
FSTB/RSB/ Clear front bumper lenses/ Clear tails
14.73 @94.1
#32
well i do have a short throw shifter
Originally posted by Nealoc187
I think alot of it has to do with the person's ability to shift quickly. I attribute my relatively good times to a good launch and the fact that I can shift incredibly quickly. I know that sounds weird, but people that ride with me have even commented on it. Maybe the guys like theblue and ejj that are getting better times without shifting to 4th can't make that 3-4 gear change as quickly, but they are great at the 1-2 and 2-3. Thats the only thing I can think of to explain it, because I'd think all of the maximas with basic bolt ons are making pretty much the same power and have the same shape hp and tq curve. Who knows. Just go with what works for you, and its all good.
I think alot of it has to do with the person's ability to shift quickly. I attribute my relatively good times to a good launch and the fact that I can shift incredibly quickly. I know that sounds weird, but people that ride with me have even commented on it. Maybe the guys like theblue and ejj that are getting better times without shifting to 4th can't make that 3-4 gear change as quickly, but they are great at the 1-2 and 2-3. Thats the only thing I can think of to explain it, because I'd think all of the maximas with basic bolt ons are making pretty much the same power and have the same shape hp and tq curve. Who knows. Just go with what works for you, and its all good.
#33
Originally posted by ejj5875
Again, let me clear something up. I always shift to 4th. With my times and trap speeds I have no other choice.
The strange thing about my times is that I get better times if I leave it in 3rd as long as I can, opposed to Dave, who shifts a lot earlier.
Again, let me clear something up. I always shift to 4th. With my times and trap speeds I have no other choice.
The strange thing about my times is that I get better times if I leave it in 3rd as long as I can, opposed to Dave, who shifts a lot earlier.
So you take 3rd to redline and then shift to 4th. Correct? Doesn't that literally put you within a 100 feet of the finish line? I've tried that too (winding out 1,2,3 then go to 4) and it seems I can do no better than 14.9s that way.
For you guys that leave it in 3rd:
Can't you feel the motor making little power 6100rpms in 3rd? Can't you feel the motor fall flat? My motor makes a lot of noise and sounds like it's going fast after 6000, but in reality it's not pulling much at all. 1st feels fine to redline and 2nd feels decent to 6300 which is a result of the lower gear ratios and good torque multiplication. When I'm shifting 4th, I'm at about 91mph.
Dave
#34
i figured it was the catback.. since they both have the same catback
Originally posted by Dave B
So you take 3rd to redline and then shift to 4th. Correct? Doesn't that literally put you within a 100 feet of the finish line? I've tried that too (winding out 1,2,3 then go to 4) and it seems I can do no better than 14.9s that way.
For you guys that leave it in 3rd:
Can't you feel the motor making little power 6100rpms in 3rd? Can't you feel the motor fall flat? My motor makes a lot of noise and sounds like it's going fast after 6000, but in reality it's not pulling much at all. 1st feels fine to redline and 2nd feels decent to 6300 which is a result of the lower gear ratios and good torque multiplication. When I'm shifting 4th, I'm at about 91mph.
Dave
So you take 3rd to redline and then shift to 4th. Correct? Doesn't that literally put you within a 100 feet of the finish line? I've tried that too (winding out 1,2,3 then go to 4) and it seems I can do no better than 14.9s that way.
For you guys that leave it in 3rd:
Can't you feel the motor making little power 6100rpms in 3rd? Can't you feel the motor fall flat? My motor makes a lot of noise and sounds like it's going fast after 6000, but in reality it's not pulling much at all. 1st feels fine to redline and 2nd feels decent to 6300 which is a result of the lower gear ratios and good torque multiplication. When I'm shifting 4th, I'm at about 91mph.
Dave
#35
Originally posted by Dave B
So you take 3rd to redline and then shift to 4th. Correct? Doesn't that literally put you within a 100 feet of the finish line? I've tried that too (winding out 1,2,3 then go to 4) and it seems I can do no better than 14.9s that way.
So you take 3rd to redline and then shift to 4th. Correct? Doesn't that literally put you within a 100 feet of the finish line? I've tried that too (winding out 1,2,3 then go to 4) and it seems I can do no better than 14.9s that way.
#36
Originally posted by SprintMax
i figured it was the catback.. since they both have the same catback
i figured it was the catback.. since they both have the same catback
So in my case, the catback has nothing to do with it.
#37
Originally posted by ejj5875
Also keep in mind that I haven't been to the track with my catback or UDP.
So in my case, the catback has nothing to do with it.
Also keep in mind that I haven't been to the track with my catback or UDP.
So in my case, the catback has nothing to do with it.
Your time slip chart only shows 14.969 as your best?
#39
Originally posted by MardiGrasMax
Why do you show 14.599 in your sig?
Your time slip chart only shows 14.969 as your best?
Why do you show 14.599 in your sig?
Your time slip chart only shows 14.969 as your best?
My Timeslip link in my sig points to a HTML file that I generated with Excel. Someday when I have "free time" I'll make a normal looking HTML page.
Anyways, across the bottom of the page you should see a bunch of dates. If you click on 08.11.01 you'll see my best times.
#40
Cool! I see it. Nice!
Originally posted by ejj5875
My Timeslip link in my sig points to a HTML file that I generated with Excel. Someday when I have "free time" I'll make a normal looking HTML page.
Anyways, across the bottom of the page you should see a bunch of dates. If you click on 08.11.01 you'll see my best times.
My Timeslip link in my sig points to a HTML file that I generated with Excel. Someday when I have "free time" I'll make a normal looking HTML page.
Anyways, across the bottom of the page you should see a bunch of dates. If you click on 08.11.01 you'll see my best times.