Cap'n Carl

Back when the new 222hp Max came out, I was disappointed in the times most road tests got from them. I put it down to cars that hadn't been broken in well yet. Then the same thing happened with the new Q45. HP can be calculated with pretty good accuracy by using the test weight and trap speed thru the quarter mile. For instance, I punched the numbers for the new Camry tested in C & D. It was making 192.7hp; Toyota claims 192hp. BMW claims 333hp for the M3, the calculator estimated within 2% of that. That's pretty accurate.

So I used my hp calculator to see if Nissan was maybe fudging things a bit. When I did the numbers for the new Altima, I got 223hp. With the new I35, I got 238hp. That sucks. Not that an Altima with 223hp is bad; it's great, but Nissan should call it 220 or 225 hp, which is more than the competition gets from their cars.

This kind of corporate dishonesty makes me think less of Nissan. Ford overclaimed hp for its Mustang Cobra, and ended up doing a very expensive recall.

Newman

iTrader: (3)

thats at the wheels. im sure it puts out somewhat close to 240 at the crank. although i think you're right. i could care less what it puts at the crank. the wheels are what matter. (to me)

Cap'n Carl

No, the calculation results in crank hp, which should be very close to Nissan's advertised net hp at the crank. They're BS-ing us.

Newman

iTrader: (3)

somethings up then. they cant (and wouldnt) just make up numbers. hard core lawsuits would result if they just made them up without concrete evidence.

vmax8

Also, don't forget that Nissan was originally
marketing 260HP for the 2k2 Maxima. They then
changed it to 255HP.

I guess I shouldn't be surprised if the actually
HP rating should be 238HP for the 2k2 Max?

Doesn't Nissan's corporate lawyers warn their
bigwigs about potential lawsuits, or perhaps
the warnings are falling upon deaf ears because
the bigwigs actually believe that they can get
away with false advertisement?

VeeTec

IMO 190 h.p. for the 4th Gen seems a bit conservative when my car runs a 14.715 completely stock. I think that 210 or so at the crank would be more accurate.

MaxDriver98

VeeTec

If you do the math it just doesn't add up.

My car is supposed to weigh around 3,100 lbs, then add my weight, 155 lbs.

Then figure that I am turning a 14.715, it just doesn't add up. Th h.p. calculator suggest 202 wheel h.p. and a ridiculous flywheel h.p. I won't even mention. I know its not that high, but I think Nissan way underestimated the 4th gen h.p.

2k2se6spd

And what would be that calculation? Thanks.

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (1)

it's not really a valid calculation AT ALL....timed tests have SO many variables that you cannot accurately predict horsepower from them. Different drivers can post different times in the SAME CAR.....Max7 let Nealoc187 drive his car at the track last week because the best that Szymon (Max7) could get out of his car was 14.65...and the Neal on his first run runs a 14.51....was the car making more HP suddenly...I don't think so....

plus one of the 5th gen guys got his new 2K2 max dynoed and though he got 240hp at the crank but actually (if you do the math right) he got 251 hp at the crank in the WRONG GEAR on the dyno...I don't think nissan is BSing the numbers...if this was true then the new altima with only "223" hp wouldn't be any faster than a 2K or 2K1 max.....

VeeTec

There is a lot to consider, weight, gearing, conditions, but still 190 is underrated.

Just do a search on h.p. calculators.

I am just going to get my car dynoed and find out for myself!

BTW, here is one calculator http://www.geocities.com/realstreetpower

I am sure the calculators are off to some degree.

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

Look at the dyno figures of stock 4th gens though. We put down about 160-165 stock (5 speed). I calculated for 162 whp vs 190 crank HP, and came up with a 14.8% tranny loss, which is right on the money for most manual vehicles. It's usually between 13 and 18%. I think having a really sweet powerband and torque curve has alot to do with the great times some have turned in their "only 190 hp" Maximas. I think it's safe to say that the magazines don't pull 2.09 60' every day like you did

I know for a fact that my 1988 626 turbo was WAYYYY underrated. Mazda rated the car at 145 hp and 190 tq. Well dynos show the car putting down about 150-155 to the WHEELS in stock form. Obviously 145 hp is BS. I ran a 15.07 in mine stock. The car weighed about 2800 lbs.

On a related note, the 01 M3 puts down only 250 hp and 206 ft lb of torque according to AA, one of the premier BMW turbo tuners. Its rated at 333hp crank. The 01 M Coupe, which is rated slightly lower at 315 hp crank, put down 259 hp and 238 torque. So either they found a MAJOR factory freak M coupe, or a really weak M3, or the numbers are BS. I'm betting its that the numbers they published weren't very accurate.

emax02

iTrader: (1)

Your calculation sytem can not be accurate. It all depends on the whole power band, HP rating's are just the "peak" HP #. Heres a exmple, say you had two car's, one car makes 900 HP between 5800-6000 RPM but it only has 200 HP through out the rest of the power band. Now say you have another car{same weight etc.} that makes 350 HP throughout the whole power band{500-7000RPM}, the "350 HP" car would whoop the advertised "900 HP car". Get my point? How could your calculator system possibly prove anything about HP #'s? If you want proof theres only one way you can do it and that's to strap it down on a dyno!


BTW the above example was just a exagerated one to help prove my point.

Ohh yeah, Torque is a HUGE factor too!

VeeTec

You may be right, but I am going to get my car dynoed once and for all and see what its doing stock. I need a baseline dyno anyway. I'll get back to you guys on the results.

BTW, Hondas 200 h.p. Preludes are putting down the same or less h.p. stock on the dynos, with the base model, and it is well known that the previous 4th Generation has been putting down the same figures, which meant that Honda was underating the H22A for several years. They were orginally listed at 190 h.p. But I have talked to Honda Reps who say that 200 h.p. was the figure that it was "secretly" making. In 97 they rated the H22A at 195, and then 200 h.p. in the last 3 years, attributed to some intake side valve changes supposedly. Honda simply underated the output 10 h.p. Why, I am not prevvy to that info.

Cap'n Carl

I got the hp calculator tables from an old Mopar race manual, but I'm sure there's ones on the web. I've compared results from this calculator to manuf. hp ratings on new cars, classics, fwd, rwd, awd, and it is pretty accurate, as I said. I've probably applied the tables to over 300 cars. And all the variables (traction, track, etc) don't affect results much because it's based on TRAP SPEED, not e.t. Trap speed is pretty consistent compared to e.t's. And even if the calculator wasn't worth a damn, why would it give worse results for Nissan's current products than it does for other manufacturers cars?

Veetec, do you have the following info for your car? I can run the numbers.
Weight, AS RACED (including spare/no spare, qty of gas, weight of passengers, etc).
Trap speed.
Trans type, auto or manual.

emax02

iTrader: (1)

You can do my car if you want . I dynoed my car a while back and it put down 173.1 HP and 178 TQ. I know my car makes at least 10-15 more HP now, but thats the only real #'s I have. Also my 5spd max weighs about 2950 lb's.

Cap'n Carl

Check out last month's Car and Driver. They do a dyno test of several cars to see how octane affects hp. The M3 turned in crappy numbers, so they called BMW. It turns out the M3's ecu won't allow full power if the front wheels are going alot slower than the back ones. On a dyno, they're not moving at all. Also, do you think the M3 could do 13.3 second quarters with 250hp?

VeeTec

Hmmmm..I was going on Nissans weight for my car, if its about 3,100, plus me, 155 lbs. My best trap was 93 m.p.h., headwind..grrr..that is a variable that will affect the results. Best e.t was a 14.715.

Its a 5 speed.

If that weight is not correct i will need to weigh my car to see, but I was basing it on about 3,100 lbs.

Cap'n Carl

Using a weight estimate of 3255, and a 93mph trap speed, I got 201 hp.

VeeTec

Ok...well..there is no headwind at the dyno so we'll see how close I come to that figure. Thanks.

emax02

iTrader: (1)

Your car is probably a bit lighter then 3100 lb's. A 95 5spd SE weighs 3018 lb's, I know I lost at least 60+ lb's with my mods.

Seraphim

Well, the impression I get is that advertised HP doesn't matter a whole lot... look at Japan.. how many cars do you see there that have MORE than 280 hp? Supposedly that is..

RussMaxManiac

Okay, lets do this:

222 hp Maxima X 15% for 5spd

188.7 hp at the wheels

That is basically what the Maxima does STOCK. Mine did 184 stock, I have seen many do 182-195 stock.

The 240hp Altima should be 204 at the wheels

255hp Maxima 216 hp at the wheels.

And let me remind you that Nissans seem to be harder to lanch compared to other cars. We have a lot of good low end grunt and fwd don't mix well. BMW is RWD, and Toyotas are autos so they are easier to lanch. Now if youi figure the % for a auto, for Nissan it would be pretty damn close.

RussMaxManiac

Your calculations are flawed.

max'n out

Don't forget that cars like the m3, porche,ferrari,lambo etc rate power at the wheels and low end cars like nissan, honda, toyota rate it at the crank so it can be missleading.

crusher84

I don't have any points to add to this discussion, other than my numbers. I ran them on the online calculator that someone mentioned before. I used Nissan's wieght for my car (4167) + my weight (200) and a e.t. of 16 seconds (at worst) I may have used the wrong wieght for the car, because there were two shown, so I took the larger. It gave me 211 HP @ the wheels and 274 @ the crank! This is for a 160 HP (advertised) 3rd gen! That calculator has got to be WAAAAY off! Also, can someone if anyone knows the stats of Honda's 2k2 S2000, I'd like to run those numbers. They advertise 240, but who knows what it is for real. I personally don't have a problem with Nissan saying we have less horsepower than we really have, if that's the case. Having 210, even at the wheels, would be a vast improvement, and a nice secret, over what I currently (think) I have.

max'n out

Your car weight is way off.

RussMaxManiac

Never heard of such BS in my life.

RussMaxManiac

So your car weighs as much as a Impala SS!!! YEA!!!

No Maxima weighs more than 3250lb period.

4th gens top out at 3100, 5th 3250~

ohboiya

iTrader: (3)

nissan is a little too aggressive with their figures ... Sport Compact Car highly doubts the authenticity of the new Sentra V-Spec ... they came just short of calling Nissan liars ... whatever .. I still like my car

crusher84

That must be the case...There were two numbers there, and it was dark when I looked at them. I'll run it again later. Thanks for telling me that, otherwise I probably would have made a fool of myself bragging to my friends!

Cap'n Carl

I wouldn't trust any hp calculator that works from e.t. E.T. is too inconsistent from run to run, driver to driver, track to track, etc. If you can't get the car dyno'd, the next best thing is to estimate it using trap speed, not e.t.

Black VQ

Do you any of you guys think it might be the 6sp tranny itself? Some of the guys here drove a 2K2 5sp Altima and 2K2 6sp Maxima back to back, and said that the Altima felt faster. There's no reason that the Maxima should be slower. It weighs less, and has a 6sp that should be(in theory) faster. And now SCC says that the SE-R Spec V equipped with the same 6sp didn't make very much power(only 141 fwhp) and wasn't much faster than the original SE-R.
The mind boggles...

Nealoc187

iTrader: (23)

I can understand what you are saying about the ECU not allowing full power, its probably a traction control type of thing. And NO, I don't think they can run 13.3 second 1/4 miles with 250... we are talkin about wheel hp here not crank horsepower... even only 250 wheel horsepower translates into 290 crank HP.

And to the person who said this...

You are wrong. They do NOT list wheel hp instead of crank horsepower. Check your facts. I doubt there is a car manufacturer in the world who would list wheel horsepower instead of crank hp, it makes the car seem less powerful to the uneducated masses who don't know the difference between wheel hp and crank hp.

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (1)

the maxima's 6-speed is NOT the same gearbox as the Spec V's 6-speed...they are both 6-speed manuals and that's as far as the similarities go.

max95q

iTrader: (10)

I was spking to a nissan rep. about the nissan altimas. they I believe are fast and lots of horsepower for the weight and car. I sat in the car as he drove it around the block so I could test it. He burned the tires from a dead stop on that thing continuasly not a chirp a line in an Auto!!! Im beginning to like those cars just abit more!! Oh the rep. was telling me that the est. hp of 175 for the spec v was at the wheels, I started laughin!! I told him if it is 175 its at the crank most likely. He tried to disagree but I was like whatever, I told him false advertising!! He got red. So I got in my 88 and dipped, laughing my a** off!!!

Dave B

That calculator is flawed. My car weighs 3120lbs with me in it (175lbs). I've shed ~85 lbs off my car in mods. My best trap speed is 95.5mph with many of my trap speeds in the upper 94 to 95mph range. My mods are a y-pipe, b-pipe, UDP, and intake. My best 1/4 is a 14.73@93.93mph with a 2.28 60'. My best trap was a 14.81@95.5mph with a 2.29 60'. My dynoed power is 176fwhp (~206hp at the fly) and 194fwtq (~228 ft/tq at the fly). My dyno pulls were done without the UDP. According to the calculator, my car is making well over 200hp to the wheels. I am pretty certain the UDP didn't give me 25hp+ the wheels.

As for European cars rating their hp and tq at the wheels...that's false. However, German ponies are always more powerful than Domestic/Japanese ponies. BMW loss thru the powertrain is typically in the 10% range where as everyone else looses about 15% thru the drivetrain.


Dave

Nismo87SE

Damn your car is light. So basically your car is around 2950lbs without the driver ? I guess the light VQ motor + lightweight minima = higher mph/lower ETs than 3rd gen VEs.

Black VQ

Says who? SCC mentioned earlier this year in an article on the SE-R that the Spec V would have a version of a 6-speed that would be used in a high-powered version of the Maxima. Why would Nissan spend the time, energy and money in making two separate 6-speed trannies? Keep in mind that this is a company in recovery that doesn't have much money to throw around.

Sprint

iTrader: (10)

my car weighs 2830lbs