After I read the not so objective review of the 2K2 Maxima, I wrote them a letter, to which they responded, both of which are below:

http://www.forbes.com/lifestyle/vehi.../1112test.html


-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, November 16, 2001 8:13 PM
To: Frank, Michael
Subject: You messed up

I just read your review of the 2002 Maxima in Forbes, and I am more than a little disappointed. Several times you provided inaccurate or misleading statements about the Maxima and the competition. NO, I am not a Maxima die-hard, and NO, I do not own one. But I have been shopping in the $30,000 price range and found many of your statements ill-founded.
YES, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. But the facts are facts, and you should present those as objectively as possible. Little mistakes I can let pass, such as the GLE having 50 series tires (nope) and griping about the steering and suspension, but testing the GLE, not the Sporty SE model. But your statement about the A4 is VERY misleading. You state that the A4 bases at $24,900 (TRUE) but you also, in the same sentence, talk about how it can "hang" with the Maxima with it's new 221 HP engine. BOGUS. The model with that 3 liter engine bases at $31,390. The HIDs ($500) and Sport package ($750) increase it further. Plus, we know that the Audi can't be had for much less than MSRP, while the Maxima can be had for well under the MSRP figures.
Even if you take a base A4 and add $1500 for HIDs and Sport
Package, there is still a MAJOR inconsistency. To put it into
perspective, please think about it like this: The Maxima will weigh
less and HAVE 50% MORE HP AND TORQUE !!! That's 50% MORE!!! The
German Audi may be a little more sporting than even the Maxima SE around the twisties, but still. Not a very objective comparison, and worse yet, misleading.

As I say to my Rottweiller (but not very often): "BAD journalist. BAD, BAD journalist."


Subject: RE: You messed up
Date: Mon, 19 Nov 2001 12:47:56 -0500
From: "Frank, Michael" <mfrank@forbes.net>


We tested more than one Maxima as we said in our review; some cars come with 50 series tires (SE), some with 55s. We never said that we were talking specifically about the GLE having 50s and we're sorry if for some reason you come away with that impression. As for our gripes about the steering (especially) hold true across all Maximas. We tested the SE (this was a preproduction car, like the GLE) as well and it is a bit more stable at speed and in corners but still not firm enough, and the extra rubber helps but doesn't overcome the body flex of this chassis, something you just won't find in the Altima (Nissan engineers will tell you happily how much stiffer the new Altima is vs. the Maxima).

But the general problem with the Maxima is that it's a front driver with a lot of torque that needs an electronic leash or it feels like most turbocharged Saabs--too much power to be easily driven hard. As for a comparo with the A4, we believe that buyers are looking for the whole package, not just raw hp, and that buyers should drive everything they can within a $5K range of their target to make sure they didn't save but then not get the car they actually would love.

Although the Maxima has as you say in large print with many exclamation points (we thank you for withholding four-letter words; you should see what people write when we say hurtful things about their precious Mustangs) 50% more hp, that doesn't all by itself make it more fun to drive. An underpowered Miata is a blast to drive on a twisty stretch of California highway because it's perfectly poised for that kind of driving. The new A4 in our opinion, even with the 1.8T and fwd, is a more enjoyable car at this point. However, take the Altima with about the same displacement vs. that A4 and now you have a real disparity--save about $5K on the Altima even with all the goodies.
Anyway, thanks for the feedback. We'll keep working at getting it right for everyone, although we know that you can't please them all.

Michael Frank
Forbes.com

 

I'm with you all the way bro, the Maxima can't even be compared to such rubbish, overpriced cars anymore.. They are absolutely nuts, there's no way that the overpriced S4 can hang with that 255 horsepower monster in the starights. As for cornering, maybe, but then again, it handles good enough for me with a FSTB and RSB

 

Actually, the S4 will toast a maxima pretty handidly. Try racing one.

 

umm....no...a new 2K2 6-speed max weighs less than an S4 and has more horsepower....maybe the S4 would get it out of the hole...but form a roll...my money is on the max...

 

I disagree. Because Nissan seems to use shetland ponies when calibrating their dynos, the 2k2 Max only makes about 240hp at the crank. The Audi S4 is rated at 250. Tests bear this out; the S4 not only has better et's (where it's awd traction is a major advantage), but it has better trap speeds, which is a function of power/weight.

 

The fastest 0-60 time i've seen for a stock S4 is about 5.5 seconds. That will toast the max by about 3 car lengths. Also if it begins to get a little curvy, the S4 will absolutely dominate ANY max.

 

240 at the crank? Has this been proven, if so could you provide a link to the dyno? I've read a lot of threads talking about the maxima making below it rated hp. I just don't think Nissan would take that kind of risk. Ford and Mazda have both been caught for doing this. I don't think Nissan's legal dept is going to let them do something so stupid knowing the repurcussions. I think a more logical explanation is that the Altima is underrated in its HP numbers and makes the same hp as the maxima, that would suck, but you can't sue them for it. This does not get anyone in trouble as no one will complain that they got more ponies than they expected. Until we see concrete proof that Nissan has overated the maxima's hp this is BS


Kenneth

 

The S4 will smoke a Maxima.... simple as that

nooowwww in response to Forbes review... they are a bunch of crackheads rich ***gots who have no idea about money... has anyone even tried to fit int he fckin rear seat of the A4? its not a fckin 4dr! its a freakin Extd cab or some shiet... Its a nice car but the Max has alot more grunt and I duno, the A4 is a nice car to drive but it does cost ALOT more...

 

2k2se6spd brings up some great points...enough for them to reevaluate their comparison, but I have to agree with the Michael Frank's point of :"As for a comparo with the A4, we believe that buyers are looking for the whole package, not just raw hp, and that buyers should drive everything they can within a $5K range of their target to make sure they didn't save but then not get the car they actually would love."

Remember, LS1/f-bodies and 'stangs may have more power than most cars, but that doesn't make them better. Same case with the Maxima.

 

I think Briguy is agreeing with you..he said that the S4 will take the Max off the line and beat it in the 1/4 mile, etc with its launch, but while rolling, the AWD gives no advantage, and a screaming DOHC should win.

 

Another consideration is a S4 weighs approx 3800 lbs while a Maxima weighs 3200 lbs.

 

I agree, a 02 6spd max would definatly beat a S4 from a role. Even out of the hole it would be pretty close with equal drivers. A 02 6spd max is good for 0-60 in about 6 seconds flat, .05 is not exactly 3 car lengths..

Hey Cap'n Carl, were are you getting your times for the 02 6spd max? Hmm.. A stock 02 auto max allready ran a 14.7 on a full tank of gas, just amagine what a 6spd would do if properly driven. I suspect we will see some 14.1-14.2's in the 1/4 with 97mph trapspeeds for the 6spd. Mark my words .

 

You don't think Nissan would overrate hp? Well, they have done so, and admitted it; when the downrated the I35 and Max. Sure, they only cut the rating by 5hp. But if the difference was only 5hp, who would care? I think the preliminary dyno numbers for the engine were 260, but by the time it passed all Nissan's emission/durability/driveability tests it made about 240. (that's how the Miata and Cobra got overrated; there was no malicious act involved, just oversight). Either no one told the advertising crew or they didn't want to hear the smaller number. They put out 260 in the ads. Then word got around that it wasn't all that strong, but the pr people wisely said that Nissan would look like fools if they dropped the rating by 15 or 20hp, so they only dropped it 5.

And you're right, only an SAE certified crank dyno test would constitute proof. If someone would dyno their bone-stock-from-air-filter-to-exhaust-tip 2k2 Max that would be nearly as good as proof; it should do ~205 with an auto and 215 with a manual. I'm only basing this on a system I've been applying to cars for 15 years or more. It's showing a trend in Nissan cars (2k Q45, 2k Max, 2k2Altima, 2k2I35), where the results, based on 1/4 mile trap speeds, show lower hp numbers than advertised. I hope I'm wrong.

 

Who are you to make accustations on nissan? A 2000 5th gen put down over 200 FWHP when it was stock. No one has done a proper dyno on a 02 max yet, so why jump to conclsusions? Either way, my new 6spd max has TON's of power on tap.

 

As a matter of fact Mr. Frank wrote quite a professional response given the fact that multiple shots were taken. The one thing he said that makes sense is that you have to drive each car and then decide. No matter how you slice it BMW and Audi are benchmarks, and unless you drive those cars you will never know how well they drive. No doubt HP comes at a stiff premium from Germany.

Steering has been an issue for Nissan back to 1995. They slightly improved it for 1997, but it still leaves much to be desired. The car company can't improve anything if you merely rubber-stamp everything they put out. 2000 3-Series owners didn't when the steering got softened for 2000, and BMW listened by restoring the old steering going forward and retrofitting as well. Big diff between Audi FWD and AWD--again, drive and see. There's only so much one can do with FWD, whether it's Japanese or German.

 

First, it has been noted that the original rating was 260 HP in the prototypes, but due to a manufacturing change in the exhaust system, the output came to only 255 by the time they got around to production.

If it wasn't such a big deal, why worry about an only 5 HP downgrade?

Also, it has been noted that Nissan auto trannies seem to be less efficient than others (so I've heard), and may accunt for a bigger loss in power - not an issue with the 6 speed.

You must also understand that the gearing of the transmission is an important part of the equation, and to try to generate HP numbers from 1/4 mile info is a losing proposition in terms of accuracy. There are so many other different variables to consider such as drag, FWD/AWD/RWD, stock tires, powerband, etc...

 

Carl, try your calcualtor on these #'s. These are real track #'s from a member here. 2K2 Auto maxima= 2250lb's{Approx.}, he did a 14.7 in the 1/4 mile. What kind of FWHP #'s do you get with that? I bet there pretty good especially when your dealing with a Auto.

 

I get the feeling he thought that up. Maybe I just say that cause i'm Maxima biased though.

 

I think the most obscene point in the article (and this thread) is trying to compare a stripped A4 with a Maxima in the first place. I paid 24.2K for my 6 speed last month. I got a good looking car with tons of emerging technology (HID, drive by wire, Variable valves, brake assist, etc.) plenty of room for 4, and BLISTERING performance! The rock bottom price I can expect to pay for an A4 is a full $1000 more than what I paid for the max. Of course I'd loose 85 horses, my 6th gear, 2 cylinders, 2 inches off the wheels, HID, Nissan reliablility, and on an on. But I guess I'd look more like some lame a** yuppie wannabee in the Audi. Worth it? Not to me, but I guess we all know where the Forbes people put their priorities!

Oh, and the stuff about an S4 beating the max: If a $42,000 can beat my $24,200 SE 6-speed, should I really feel that bad?

 

Also, it has been noted that Nissan auto trannies seem to be less efficient than others (so I've heard), and may accunt for a bigger loss in power - not an issue with the 6 speed.

You may have a point here. The big discrepancies have been with auto-equipped Nissans.


You must also understand that the gearing of the transmission is an important part of the equation, and to try to generate HP numbers from 1/4 mile info is a losing proposition in terms of accuracy. There are so many other different variables to consider such as drag, FWD/AWD/RWD, stock tires, powerband, etc... [/B][/QUOTE]

You'd be surprised how little those factors affect trap speed. I'm not saying this hp table is perfect, but whether it's applied to sportscars, sports sedans, econoboxes, minivans, SUVs, or sport coupes, results are nearly always within 5% of the manufacturers hp rating. When the results are off by more that for whole product line, I get suspicious.


Emax95, I can't do anything with 1/4 mile times. I need best trap speed, and a close estimate of the weight, as raced. And the result is a hp estimate for the flywheel, not fwhp. Also, are you sure about the weight? 2250 pounds would make it one of the lightest Max's ever.

 

You'd be surprised how little those factors affect trap speed. I'm not saying this hp table is perfect, but whether it's applied to sportscars, sports sedans, econoboxes, minivans, SUVs, or sport coupes, results are nearly always within 5% of the manufacturers hp rating. When the results are off by more that for whole product line, I get suspicious.


Emax95, I can't do anything with 1/4 mile times. I need best trap speed, and a close estimate of the weight, as raced. And the result is a hp estimate for the flywheel, not fwhp. Also, are you sure about the weight? 2250 pounds would make it one of the lightest Max's ever. [/B][/QUOTE]

Sorry, I ment to say 3250 . I will try to find the trap speed later.