xHypex

iTrader: (1)

I never contribute much to the debate on intakes, but after cleaning my throttle body I decided to buy the pipe that runs between the MAF and throttle body. I like my JWT, but it seems that the intake would sound better and gain more power by removing the resonator. I've seen a few people say they have this setup, but most people decide to go with the CAI. Can anyone comment on how this modified pop charger works/sounds? I also saw the Franken intake mentioned and since I'm not familiar with it it could be exactly what I'm talking about.
-hype

Craig Mack

your still sucking in that HOT engine air so I dont give a damn if the tube is made outta titanium, hot air is hot air.

xHypex

iTrader: (1)

I live in Texas so it's all hot air anyways :P Our cars are pretty open in the front so they ventilate better than you think. I already owned a pop charger so buying the pipe was better than spending even more money for a CAI that I don't really want.
-hype

NmexMAX

iTrader: (22)

I want to try and do that. See what the gains are.

ericdwong

Where did you buy this pipe and how much?

xHypex

iTrader: (1)

I bought it directly from Place Racing for about $80. I realize that is almost half the cost of the CAI, but I didn't want to get rid of my existing intake and the install is very simple. It made sense to me that the resonator on the intake side can't do good things for airflow.
-hype

Swafford98

hot air makes your car run harder which in turn makes more power. I WILL agree that it is not good for engine, but ever watch any kind of racing. They close up some of the air vents to make the car run harder to push more horsepower!!!!!
so, just cause you think you cold air intake is the coolest invention in the world and sounds like a Civic Si..it may not be the kind of setup everyone else wants.

DA-MAX

iTrader: (10)

I think Cheston did this setup(MAF piping only) on his Max(before the SC of course), I think after measuring temps he came to the conclusion that there was only a marginal difference from HAI to CAI. and I think the temp. measurements were pretty precise since he used his Techtom to measure them!

_DRU_

i thought those were heat shields blocking hot air from the engine bay to go back into the intake... thats the setup my friend had on his M3 and thats what he explained to me.

deezo

iTrader: (3)

I don't agree but this is just my opinion. When you drive off when your car is cold it has more HP than when it gets hot.

Example:

My track runs at Maxus in the 1/4 was no better than 16.1. The temp was over 80 degrees and the cars were just plain hot. The car didn't feel powerful at all.

My track runs at Island Dragway were much faster. My best time is in my sig. The temp was around 40 degrees and the car had much more power.

Cold ari makes a world of difference.

theblue

for anybody who thinks hot air is better than please explain to me why people use intercoolers

ejj

iTrader: (5)

I just installed this exact setup that you are asking about. I did it for the following reasons:

1. To have the PR upper piece to tap into for my soon-to-be-installed NOS.
2. So I didn't have to drill a hole in the fender.

Now, between the POP with the upper PR piece and without, I couldn't really feel any power difference. The sounds is "better". A little louder, but nothing like the CAI.

Between the POP and the CAI (I had one max with each for a while) I can't say that I notice a difference power-wise. Of course the CAI sounds better, but its not all about sound.

My opinion...go for the CAI if you want the looks and sound. But there really isn't a difference in power between the two.

ejj

iTrader: (5)

To look cool.

tbsmith

I'm going to try to make this very simple.

When you are trying to get more power out of an engine you have one goal: To burn more fuel. To burn more fuel, you need more oxygen. (From air.) So you can increase displacement, port and polish heads, use high-lift cams, supercharge, turbocharge, etc. Those modifications are solely to get more air into the engine so that you can inject more fuel. Even modifications on the exhaust side of things are meant to reach this goal. The more efficiently you remove exhaust gasses from the cylinder, the more room you are going to have for fresh air to burn the gasoline.

So tell me this: what happens when you heat air?
Answer: it gets less dense. The individual molecules get farther apart, including oxygen, so that for a given volume you actually have less air. (This is why a hot-air ballon rises. The hotter air weighs less per unit of volume than the cool air outside the envelope.) Having hot, less dense air is a bad thing because it contains less oxygen. You have to suck more hot air into an engine to have the same amount of oxygen as a lesser volume of cold air. The flip side of the coin is that if you cool down the air you will have more oxygen, and hence be able to burn more gasoline. That means more power with cold air.

This is where intercoolers and cold-air intakes come from. An intercooler works to cool down air that has been heated up by compression in a supercharger or turbocharger. That does everything from increasing power to protecting the engine from detonation. (You can run significantly more boost with an intercooler than without.)

So that's it. The post is long, but I felt like it had to be. You're kidding yourself if you think that hotter air gets you more power. Do everything you can to keep it cool.

Tim

Dave B

With the same intake charge, a POP style intake intake should always outperform the CAI. On the track, the POP should always be a little quicker due to it's shorter intake path. The CAI makes for a longer intake path therefore increasing laminar flow, but not extending the VQs ability to breath up top. The POP style intake is 25% the length of a CAI, therefore it's a more direct intake path, therefore extending the VQs ability to breath in the topend. The POP has always refered to as the "Hot Air Intake" which is true. However, after a few simple and cheap modifications, you'll get the best of both worlds (cooler intake charge and a shorter intake path).

I've got the HKS POP style intake. The part of stock intake I removed was the upper intake box. The HKS unit lays in the stock lower box where it's feed with the stock intake snorkel. The resonator between the MAF and throttle body and the resonator that connects into the stock intake snorkel (located under the battery) have been removed or disconnected. On the far drivers side portion of the stock lower intake box, I've installed a 2.5" shopvac hose that runs directly behind the headlight and pulls cooler air from behind the headlight and from the bumper area. I've got another piece of shopvac hose that plumbs into intake snorkel where the old resonator was plumbed in. This piece of hose runs from the intake snorkel to the drivers side foglight area and it pointed forward. My foglight holes are open. Most importantly, I made a heatshield that protects the intake from the radient heat of the motor and keeps the cooler intake air funneled around the filter. I've been running this intake setup since April and I've noticed no significant heat issues. On a 80+ degree day after driving around in stop in go traffic, the intake is barely warm to the touch. Here's a pic:

http://home.earthlink.net/~thunderlt...ges/intake.jpg


Dave

Craig Mack

Everyone has their own opinion. You guys can have your little theories and whatnot, but until you switch from your POP's to CAI's you can't talk. And granted some of you didn't notice a difference, some people are just more sensitive to these kind of things. And about hot air being better for speed, what the hell ? When did that idea pop up ? One word: Thermodynamics.

When I am alone I can REALLY feel the difference. The lag is gone and it feels great.

It school my car sits out in the sun, and I can notice a decrease in performance verse if it's been ridden for a while moving around (circulating air), or when I go to school in the mourning. The lag effect is magnified when it sits in the sun. And a black car heats up fast. Both intakes lagged under that circumstance, the pop moreso. Other circumstances the CAI has no lag.

You guys can say whatever you want but I did notice an increase in off the line power, and a pretty significant increase in mid-end power.

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (1)

Craig Mack

RedMax95

hey hype bring it down here and let me have a look at it

Craig Mack

Traitor

RedMax95

how d'ya get that? im getting my cai, but i know hype, i just wanna see his setup

dmbmaxima2k2

iTrader: (1)

damn i'm gonna be selling my middle section without a filter for way cheaper then that. oh well.

Dave B

Craig-

Dyno results have never shown the "loss" in lowend with the POP style intake. However, we should note that these runs were with 5 speeds. I use to have the Poorman's CAI or OSCAI and I currently have the HKS intake. Both intakes have been dynoed (the HKS didn't have the modifications it does now). On the dyno, the HKS didn't give any tq or hp from the run start of 2200rpms. It actually made 2fwtq more than the OSCAI from 2200-4400rpms. From 4400-5000rpms, the HKS intake showed a slight increase in power over the OSCAI. From 5000-6200rpms, the HKS intake produced, at times, more than 8fwhp and tq than the OSCAI. What's all this prove? It shows that the POP didn't give up anything in lowend tq. It also shows the POPs ability to breath over 5000rpms vs a modified stock airbox.

The POP doesn't have to be a hot air intake if people make a couple modifications. In the topend, I firmly believe the POP will outperform the CAI in a simple 2nd gear roll-on race assuming both cars have the same mods, trannies, decent drivers.


Dave

theMax

$80 thats a lot.

Go to HD and get a pipe with the same diameter (3" I think) and cut it to length, along with 2 pipe clamps with rubber.

Done for about $20. Paint it if you like

Greg's2kGLE

What about the hoses that go into the existing resonator? I know the upper intake tube has little tubes for the rubber hoses to clamp onto.

Craig Mack

And I am auto. I belive that makes a world of difference. My friend who has a '95 SE 5spd has a popcharger, and can't feel the loss.

Craig Mack

I just got back from the gas station. I can absolutely FEEL the freakn difference!!! It takes off faster and accelerates faster. Yes alot louder but FASTER as well. I had my old pop for about 5 months so I do know what it feels like, and it wasn't like this !

To any automatic who is contimplating getting the CAI (especially if you have a pop), I want you to know you WILL be happy. If you aren't you arent human and have no sense of feeling.

RussMaxManiac

Dave, sorry to be rude here, but the DYNO means jack **** comparing it to a CAI.

Reasons:

1) Hood is open, fan blowing on front of car. Why need a CAI when the filter isn't being exposed to the heat of the engine with the hood open.

2) CAI on a dyno won't prove any more as well, due to the fact its sitting still. On the street with the hood closed and normal driving the CAI will show the difference between a HOT intake and a CAI.

3) Also the CAI will suck in colder air if your on the freeway since it blows right in behind the filter. Unlike the POP, no blowing air.

Track runs have proven the CAI out performs the regular pops.

ejj

iTrader: (5)

[Russ's Style]
No. Wrong. There is no way that could be.
[/Russ's Style]

The CAI does not out perform regular pops. I've had both, but if you'd like more proof...

theblue and I both go to the same track at the same time (most of the time). Some days his was faster, some days mine was (almost identical mods). I had a CAI he had a POP.

Bottom line? I am convinced there is NO noticable power difference. Both do a good job. The CAI is for show and sound compared to a POP intake, although of course both do great compared to stock.

RussMaxManiac

Different car, different drivers. Sorry but it has been proven that the CAI produces about 2-4 more hp than the POP across the powerband, especially low end. People who have ran at the track with a pop then a cai have proven this.

And this is not Russ style, this is the truth. So if you can't face the facts, then go about your business. We don't need your useless no proof arguements.

ejj

iTrader: (5)

Useless no proof arguments? Russ, wake up. I have two of the same car, with almost identical mods, one with a POP and one with a CAI. I'm telling you, there isn't a power difference.

I don't have the dynos, but Cheston and Nabli (sp?) dynoed at the same time and the SI had more top end. The CAI has more down low, true. But for racing , I think a POP will give you more power over 5k RPMS.

Oh...BTW, how's it been proven that a CAI gives 2-4 more hp when CAI dyno's mean jack?

Craig Mack

For the first time in history I agree with Russ

That post makes PERFECT sense russ. When the hood is open and a fan is blowing, the POP isnt sucking in engine heat like it is in REAL driving.

Great points.

Craig Mack

Exactly. Just cause you have the same mods (except pop/cai) as someone doesn't mean your times will be identical. Does driving skill not matter

RussMaxManiac

There are runs out there with the SAME CAR, with the pop swapped out for the CAI. Every car has differences in manufacturing. Sorry but everyone knows the CAI gives more power, that is the way it works.

ejj

iTrader: (5)

I forgot that everything on your car is automatically the best product out there. Sorry about that.

Bottom line, there really isn't a difference in power. Its not like I have a problem with the CAI, I own one and very well may put it back on my new car someday. It just wouldn't be to gain more power, because I don't think you do.

Yes, you gain more down low, I'm not debating that. But many people on this board know that the POP systems breath better on the top end. There have been dynos and track times to prove this.

For city driving and off the line power, the CAI may be better. But for people who race (track) and need the top end, I think the POP is a better way to go.

I'm done with this thread.

ru4real

iTrader: (3)

Given that a CAI improves low-end torque and a pop improves high-end breathing, then wouldn't a pop give higher trap speeds than CAI?
Can anyone prove this?

Dave B

Yes!! With my POP intake, I see about an average 1mph gain over the OSCAI intake. Like I've said, my dynos have shown NO decrease in low rpm torque with the POP vs the OSCAI. And according to my dyno (same correction factors of 0.99), there are GAINS in torque from 2200-4400rpms with the POP. I know we are debating the POP vs CAI, but my dyno clearly indicates there is no drop in low rpm torque as people suggest and the POP holds on to more power straight to redline. Since most of us are talking about 4th gens with a non-variable length runner system we have to consider something. The 4th gen uses a long intake runner design which makes for great low to mid range torque, but it doesn't make much power past 5500rpms because the long runners become turbulent. When you add a POP intake, you shorten the intake path. It's almost like shortening the intake runners to a degree. Therefore, you increase the motors ability to breath up top without a loss in low rpm torque. With a CAI, you lengthen the intake path by a good 18" over the POP. In the low end, the CAI has a long and smooth air draw which will make for solid low rpm torque (more than the OSCAI and POP). But once 4000rpms hits, that flow becomes more turbulent as the air trys to cram into the intake manifold. The more the rpms rise, the more the turbulence. With my 5 speed Max, I'm coming off the line at around 3100-3200rpms (4000rpm launch). In n more than a second (probably a lot less) does it take my car to get to go from 3000 to 4000rpms. There's where the only advantage of the CAI would be and the advantage would be extremely minmal seeing that 1st winds out so fast. On every gear change, I'm landing at 4300-4400rpms, which puts me well above the CAI advantage.

I have NEVER seen any dyno proof showing the CAI outperforming the POP. I want to see a dyno scan of the same car running both intakes with no other mods added in between runs. The runs don't even have to be on the same day, just the same machine and car.

Let me ask you guys this. How many street race and drag cars do you see that have long intake tube hooked to their intake manifolds? None. The filter is sitting right on top of the throttle body or carb. They want to be able to cram as much air into the motor therefore extending useable rpms.

If you increase useable rpms past stock, you will be faster because you are accelerating longer in each gear. It's as simple as that.


Dave

BriGuyMax

iTrader: (1)

Russ...you are so full of it.

your logic makes absolutely no sense at all. By what your saying...the fan will blow air on the pop but not on the CAI....riiight.

Also, it has been PROVEN by cheston that once the car is moving 30mph there is only a TWO DEGREE difference in intake temp from CAI to pop. the difference at idle is only 15 degrees....so once the car is moving, the popcharger will get more cold air than the fan on the dyno could ever give it.

About the track runs....who made these track runs and dynos of both intakes....I'd really like to see the results since there has NEVER been a post about them.

HondaKiller718

I love my JWT pop. So what if it likes to fart after 4000rpm.

theMax

For the 5th gen there are 3 hoses. One is the breather so you can get the little K&N for it (see in the frankencar sig)

as for the 2 other vaccume hoses i'm not sure but i'm sure there is a solution because I do not think the SC'ed cars have a hookup for these hoses. What did the frankencar do?