UDP douters beware...New best on dyno with WP non-mandrel Y-pipe and UDP!
02-11-2002, 07:33 PM
#42
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Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 1,617
Originally posted by for sHo
Well if any of you guys are really willing to get some SOLID proof once for all, just do a dyno with and without the pulley. Simple as that.. it will involve a lot of work but will clear everything up once for all.
Well if any of you guys are really willing to get some SOLID proof once for all, just do a dyno with and without the pulley. Simple as that.. it will involve a lot of work but will clear everything up once for all.
Stereodude
02-11-2002, 09:49 PM
#44
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
What other proof do you need, Stereodude? What's the 3rd variable? Honestly, I think you're making a very poor argument here. You've really got nothing to hold on to. The calibration for the Dynojet can't be off because there's nothing to calibrate. Two steel drums, an rpm pick, a computer. That's all.
If you have such a problem with all this data and "proof", then what's your opinion of timeslips? Talk about variables.
For quite a while now, there is a group of members that SWEAR the UDP makes NO POWER and actually REDUCES power, especially up top. Now we have two dynos showing the exact opposite. I'm not saying the UDP was responsible for all the added power, but I believe this is more the PROOF that the UDP does work and doesn't reduce power like many have said before. The Stillen Y-pipe has mandrel bends and my Warpspeed pipe does not. The Warpspeed's exit pipe is slightly larger than the Stillen, so roughly both pipes should be equal. Gaining 9fwhp with a non-mandrel bent Y-pipe over a mandrel bent y-pipe is a rediculous assumption.
Dave
If you have such a problem with all this data and "proof", then what's your opinion of timeslips? Talk about variables.
For quite a while now, there is a group of members that SWEAR the UDP makes NO POWER and actually REDUCES power, especially up top. Now we have two dynos showing the exact opposite. I'm not saying the UDP was responsible for all the added power, but I believe this is more the PROOF that the UDP does work and doesn't reduce power like many have said before. The Stillen Y-pipe has mandrel bends and my Warpspeed pipe does not. The Warpspeed's exit pipe is slightly larger than the Stillen, so roughly both pipes should be equal. Gaining 9fwhp with a non-mandrel bent Y-pipe over a mandrel bent y-pipe is a rediculous assumption.
Dave
02-11-2002, 10:23 PM
#45
Originally posted by Stereodude
How you figure I'm not qualified to speak about the scientific process I haven't a clue. It's simple logic that to prove something you have to use a very controlled enviroment and change only one variable at a time. Why you can't grasp this I don't know. Instead you complain about my sig (which is a whopping 240 pixels tall) and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
Stereodude
How you figure I'm not qualified to speak about the scientific process I haven't a clue. It's simple logic that to prove something you have to use a very controlled enviroment and change only one variable at a time. Why you can't grasp this I don't know. Instead you complain about my sig (which is a whopping 240 pixels tall) and tell me I don't know what I'm talking about.
Stereodude
FACT is the only variables he changed were the y-pipe and the UDP....and if a non-mandrel bent pipe can somehow produce 10 more hp than a mandrel pipe...I better call Warpspeed
The other variables were the dyno...which was the SAME...and the weather which was VERY near the same...if you know ANYTHING about how conditions effect an engine...you'll know that 4 degrees of temp...and 1 inch of mercury won't make an noticable differnce in power on a dyno, especially after it's been SAE corrected.
"DONNY, YOU'RE OUT OF YOUR ELEMENT"
BTW - your sig may only be 240 pixels tall...but it's almost 700 pixels WIDE...PLUS...how does an interior shot of an UGLY A$$ Lumina pertain to anything on a MAXIMA site.
02-12-2002, 03:44 AM
#48
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Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 1,617
Originally posted by MAX2000JP
Well since you dont have a pic of your 2k2. I am thinking you drive a sweet chevy Lumina.
Well since you dont have a pic of your 2k2. I am thinking you drive a sweet chevy Lumina.
Stereodude
02-12-2002, 06:12 AM
#49
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Ok, here's the complete low down, long winded explanation as to why his results don't prove anything.
1) Three variables were changed.
a) Y-pipe is not the same
b) UDP was added
c) 14 months of time passed by
2) The gains he describes are not in line with what one would expect from a UDP.
So lets get into each point a lot further. I've gone on and on about too many variables changing, so I'll try to keep it short here. The Y-pipe is not the same. There is no data on what kind of gains each y-pipe provides in gains. The 2nd variable is the UDP. The 3rd variable is the 14 months of time. They may not have affected the Dyno, but there's no way of knowing that the condition of Dave's engine is the same as it was 14 months ago.
Even if you say "so what" to all that other stuff lets think about a UDP and how it behaves. A UDP works via a weight reduction of a spinning pulley. It has the potential to acheive gains because of reduced rotational inertia. It puts less drag on the engine. The gains should show up from idle all the way to 6600 RPM. The gains should also change with RPM. The UDP should cause the largest gain at 6600RPM and should follow an exact mathematical function. The gains that Dave describes are nothing like what the UDP should provide. He gained a lot of power from 4800 RPM on. He doesn't mention anything about a linear gain with RPM, or that it was gradual. It does not line up with how a UDP would acheive gains.
Then we have the statements of Dave. Things like "You honestly believe the Warpspeed NON-MANDREL Y-pipe makes that much more power over a Stillen mandrel bent y-pipe?" He then says, "I'm not about to say the UDP pulley gave me all these gains because a single pulley on a 3.0 V6 won't make those kind of gains. Clearly the WP non-mandrel bent pipe was responsible for some of this and I'm most impressed." Then we get, "Gaining 9fwhp with a non-mandrel bent Y-pipe over a mandrel bent y-pipe is a rediculous assumption." So do you really think the Stillen Y frees up more power than the WSP Y or not? What else added the power Dave since you yourself said the UDP didn't make all of it? Was it the Y-pipe or not? How much of the gains do you attribute to the UDP? was it 2HP and 2TQ, or 5 of each, or what?
Stereodude
1) Three variables were changed.
a) Y-pipe is not the same
b) UDP was added
c) 14 months of time passed by
2) The gains he describes are not in line with what one would expect from a UDP.
So lets get into each point a lot further. I've gone on and on about too many variables changing, so I'll try to keep it short here. The Y-pipe is not the same. There is no data on what kind of gains each y-pipe provides in gains. The 2nd variable is the UDP. The 3rd variable is the 14 months of time. They may not have affected the Dyno, but there's no way of knowing that the condition of Dave's engine is the same as it was 14 months ago.
Even if you say "so what" to all that other stuff lets think about a UDP and how it behaves. A UDP works via a weight reduction of a spinning pulley. It has the potential to acheive gains because of reduced rotational inertia. It puts less drag on the engine. The gains should show up from idle all the way to 6600 RPM. The gains should also change with RPM. The UDP should cause the largest gain at 6600RPM and should follow an exact mathematical function. The gains that Dave describes are nothing like what the UDP should provide. He gained a lot of power from 4800 RPM on. He doesn't mention anything about a linear gain with RPM, or that it was gradual. It does not line up with how a UDP would acheive gains.
Then we have the statements of Dave. Things like "You honestly believe the Warpspeed NON-MANDREL Y-pipe makes that much more power over a Stillen mandrel bent y-pipe?" He then says, "I'm not about to say the UDP pulley gave me all these gains because a single pulley on a 3.0 V6 won't make those kind of gains. Clearly the WP non-mandrel bent pipe was responsible for some of this and I'm most impressed." Then we get, "Gaining 9fwhp with a non-mandrel bent Y-pipe over a mandrel bent y-pipe is a rediculous assumption." So do you really think the Stillen Y frees up more power than the WSP Y or not? What else added the power Dave since you yourself said the UDP didn't make all of it? Was it the Y-pipe or not? How much of the gains do you attribute to the UDP? was it 2HP and 2TQ, or 5 of each, or what?
Stereodude
02-12-2002, 06:44 AM
#50
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Join Date: Oct 2000
Posts: 1,249
let's agree to disagree or some shiet like that ok??? yes, with the ws y-pipe and udp w/ same dyno and condition there was proof of power gain...and NO it is not conclusive as to how much power the udp makes alone...this is the two basis of each side's argument...
02-12-2002, 07:37 AM
#51
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Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,151
Originally posted by Stereodude
Wow you're a quick one. Get back to me on Thursday after I take delivery of my 2k2 and then'll we'll talk about what I drive.
Stereodude
Wow you're a quick one. Get back to me on Thursday after I take delivery of my 2k2 and then'll we'll talk about what I drive.
Stereodude
So let me get this straight. You DONT own a MAXIMA, but you know so much about them to give DAVE B a hard time.
02-12-2002, 07:47 AM
#52
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Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 1,617
Originally posted by MAX2000JP
So let me get this straight. You DONT own a MAXIMA, but you know so much about them to give DAVE B a hard time.
So let me get this straight. You DONT own a MAXIMA, but you know so much about them to give DAVE B a hard time.
Stereodude
02-12-2002, 08:16 AM
#53
Well, that all depends on what side of the fence you're on. The UDP supporters will see that as a vindication of their argument, and proof. The UDP doubters will see it as not possible. It's all in how you look at it. To you, he changed 3 variables, the y-pipe, time, and udp. To them, the y-pipe change has no effect, the 14 months have no effect, so only 1 variable was essentially changed. Two different points of view, and I don't think any amount of arguing is going to sway either side.
Originally posted by Stereodude
2) The gains he describes are not in line with what one would expect from a UDP.
Stereodude
2) The gains he describes are not in line with what one would expect from a UDP.
Stereodude
02-12-2002, 08:31 AM
#54
Supporting Maxima.org Member
Join Date: Oct 2000
Location: Rochester, NY
Posts: 3,150
Originally posted by Shadow
Well, that all depends on what side of the fence you're on. The UDP supporters will see that as a vindication of their argument, and proof. The UDP doubters will see it as not possible. It's all in how you look at it. To you, he changed 3 variables, the y-pipe, time, and udp. To them, the y-pipe change has no effect, the 14 months have no effect, so only 1 variable was essentially changed. Two different points of view, and I don't think any amount of arguing is going to sway either side.
Well, that all depends on what side of the fence you're on. The UDP supporters will see that as a vindication of their argument, and proof. The UDP doubters will see it as not possible. It's all in how you look at it. To you, he changed 3 variables, the y-pipe, time, and udp. To them, the y-pipe change has no effect, the 14 months have no effect, so only 1 variable was essentially changed. Two different points of view, and I don't think any amount of arguing is going to sway either side.
02-12-2002, 08:34 AM
#55
Originally posted by Stereodude
Ok, here's the complete low down, long winded explanation as to why his results don't prove anything.
1) Three variables were changed.
a) Y-pipe is not the same
b) UDP was added
c) 14 months of time passed by
2) The gains he describes are not in line with what one would expect from a UDP.
So lets get into each point a lot further. I've gone on and on about too many variables changing, so I'll try to keep it short here. The Y-pipe is not the same. There is no data on what kind of gains each y-pipe provides in gains. The 2nd variable is the UDP. The 3rd variable is the 14 months of time. They may not have affected the Dyno, but there's no way of knowing that the condition of Dave's engine is the same as it was 14 months ago.
Even if you say "so what" to all that other stuff lets think about a UDP and how it behaves. A UDP works via a weight reduction of a spinning pulley. It has the potential to acheive gains because of reduced rotational inertia. It puts less drag on the engine. The gains should show up from idle all the way to 6600 RPM. The gains should also change with RPM. The UDP should cause the largest gain at 6600RPM and should follow an exact mathematical function. The gains that Dave describes are nothing like what the UDP should provide. He gained a lot of power from 4800 RPM on. He doesn't mention anything about a linear gain with RPM, or that it was gradual. It does not line up with how a UDP would acheive gains.
Then we have the statements of Dave. Things like "You honestly believe the Warpspeed NON-MANDREL Y-pipe makes that much more power over a Stillen mandrel bent y-pipe?" He then says, "I'm not about to say the UDP pulley gave me all these gains because a single pulley on a 3.0 V6 won't make those kind of gains. Clearly the WP non-mandrel bent pipe was responsible for some of this and I'm most impressed." Then we get, "Gaining 9fwhp with a non-mandrel bent Y-pipe over a mandrel bent y-pipe is a rediculous assumption." So do you really think the Stillen Y frees up more power than the WSP Y or not? What else added the power Dave since you yourself said the UDP didn't make all of it? Was it the Y-pipe or not? How much of the gains do you attribute to the UDP? was it 2HP and 2TQ, or 5 of each, or what?
Stereodude
Ok, here's the complete low down, long winded explanation as to why his results don't prove anything.
1) Three variables were changed.
a) Y-pipe is not the same
b) UDP was added
c) 14 months of time passed by
2) The gains he describes are not in line with what one would expect from a UDP.
So lets get into each point a lot further. I've gone on and on about too many variables changing, so I'll try to keep it short here. The Y-pipe is not the same. There is no data on what kind of gains each y-pipe provides in gains. The 2nd variable is the UDP. The 3rd variable is the 14 months of time. They may not have affected the Dyno, but there's no way of knowing that the condition of Dave's engine is the same as it was 14 months ago.
Even if you say "so what" to all that other stuff lets think about a UDP and how it behaves. A UDP works via a weight reduction of a spinning pulley. It has the potential to acheive gains because of reduced rotational inertia. It puts less drag on the engine. The gains should show up from idle all the way to 6600 RPM. The gains should also change with RPM. The UDP should cause the largest gain at 6600RPM and should follow an exact mathematical function. The gains that Dave describes are nothing like what the UDP should provide. He gained a lot of power from 4800 RPM on. He doesn't mention anything about a linear gain with RPM, or that it was gradual. It does not line up with how a UDP would acheive gains.
Then we have the statements of Dave. Things like "You honestly believe the Warpspeed NON-MANDREL Y-pipe makes that much more power over a Stillen mandrel bent y-pipe?" He then says, "I'm not about to say the UDP pulley gave me all these gains because a single pulley on a 3.0 V6 won't make those kind of gains. Clearly the WP non-mandrel bent pipe was responsible for some of this and I'm most impressed." Then we get, "Gaining 9fwhp with a non-mandrel bent Y-pipe over a mandrel bent y-pipe is a rediculous assumption." So do you really think the Stillen Y frees up more power than the WSP Y or not? What else added the power Dave since you yourself said the UDP didn't make all of it? Was it the Y-pipe or not? How much of the gains do you attribute to the UDP? was it 2HP and 2TQ, or 5 of each, or what?
Stereodude
HE DID GAIN POWER...that's the basic truth...and the UDP was responsible for some if not all of it...that's all I'm arguing here...that the UDP DOES do something for a maxima....nothing more. You have WAY too much time on your hands. Why don't you come back when you actually have a maxima and have EXPERIENCE on the subject...
02-12-2002, 09:07 AM
#56
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Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 1,617
Originally posted by theblue
I do think that looking at how the shape of the dyno curve changed will help a little because if it is very obvious that the curve changed then that is all the proof I will need to see. If all we see is a general change in HP and the same shape curve then who is to say that it only a HP increase because of the y-pipe.
I do think that looking at how the shape of the dyno curve changed will help a little because if it is very obvious that the curve changed then that is all the proof I will need to see. If all we see is a general change in HP and the same shape curve then who is to say that it only a HP increase because of the y-pipe.
Stereodude
02-12-2002, 09:19 AM
#57
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Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 1,617
Originally posted by BriGuyMax
I still don't see how the 11 monthes of time is a variable in this...but whatever. Fact is...you personally have not experience with UDPs and we don't have any dyno numbers around for a maxima to prove that it DOESN'T make these gains.
HE DID GAIN POWER...that's the basic truth...and the UDP was responsible for some if not all of it...that's all I'm arguing here...that the UDP DOES do something for a maxima....nothing more. You have WAY too much time on your hands. Why don't you come back when you actually have a maxima and have EXPERIENCE on the subject...
I still don't see how the 11 monthes of time is a variable in this...but whatever. Fact is...you personally have not experience with UDPs and we don't have any dyno numbers around for a maxima to prove that it DOESN'T make these gains.
HE DID GAIN POWER...that's the basic truth...and the UDP was responsible for some if not all of it...that's all I'm arguing here...that the UDP DOES do something for a maxima....nothing more. You have WAY too much time on your hands. Why don't you come back when you actually have a maxima and have EXPERIENCE on the subject...
The fact that I won't have my Maxima for 2 more days and the fact that I haven't put a UDP on my car (that I don't have yet) is completely irrelevant to the argument. I don't intend to put a UDP on my Maxima as I'd like the alternator to make as much power at low RPM's as possible.
Stereodude
02-12-2002, 09:57 AM
#58
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Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 2,151
Originally posted by Stereodude
I've never contested that he gained power. I've never even claimed that the UDP didn't add some power. What I've claimed and I keep claiming is that Dave B has provided evidence, not proof. I have plenty of experience in the scientific process and in doing experiments. I am fully qualified (not that I needed to be) in order to make comments on the scientific process.
The fact that I won't have my Maxima for 2 more days and the fact that I haven't put a UDP on my car (that I don't have yet) is completely irrelevant to the argument. I don't intend to put a UDP on my Maxima as I'd like the alternator to make as much power at low RPM's as possible.
Stereodude
I've never contested that he gained power. I've never even claimed that the UDP didn't add some power. What I've claimed and I keep claiming is that Dave B has provided evidence, not proof. I have plenty of experience in the scientific process and in doing experiments. I am fully qualified (not that I needed to be) in order to make comments on the scientific process.
The fact that I won't have my Maxima for 2 more days and the fact that I haven't put a UDP on my car (that I don't have yet) is completely irrelevant to the argument. I don't intend to put a UDP on my Maxima as I'd like the alternator to make as much power at low RPM's as possible.
Stereodude
02-12-2002, 11:52 AM
#59
Originally posted by Stereodude
I've never contested that he gained power. I've never even claimed that the UDP didn't add some power. What I've claimed and I keep claiming is that Dave B has provided evidence, not proof. I have plenty of experience in the scientific process and in doing experiments. I am fully qualified (not that I needed to be) in order to make comments on the scientific process.
The fact that I won't have my Maxima for 2 more days and the fact that I haven't put a UDP on my car (that I don't have yet) is completely irrelevant to the argument. I don't intend to put a UDP on my Maxima as I'd like the alternator to make as much power at low RPM's as possible.
Stereodude
I've never contested that he gained power. I've never even claimed that the UDP didn't add some power. What I've claimed and I keep claiming is that Dave B has provided evidence, not proof. I have plenty of experience in the scientific process and in doing experiments. I am fully qualified (not that I needed to be) in order to make comments on the scientific process.
The fact that I won't have my Maxima for 2 more days and the fact that I haven't put a UDP on my car (that I don't have yet) is completely irrelevant to the argument. I don't intend to put a UDP on my Maxima as I'd like the alternator to make as much power at low RPM's as possible.
Stereodude
02-12-2002, 11:56 AM
#60
Originally posted by BriGuyMax
I really don't care what you are "qualified" to do or say. Get your maxima...get some experience and come back here and chat...until then you are officially on my ignore list, per your waste of space posts and sig.
I really don't care what you are "qualified" to do or say. Get your maxima...get some experience and come back here and chat...until then you are officially on my ignore list, per your waste of space posts and sig.
Bottom line, this is more than enough evidance to quite the haters of the UDP. The thing works and you really can't dispute that anymore. This is the 2nd dyno that shows the same results.
02-12-2002, 12:17 PM
#61
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2001
Posts: 112
You guys argue a lot. The fact that completely pedantic posts regarding the car you drive can get you in a tissie, Stereodude, might be grounds establishing the fact that your compensating for something with your car.
PS engineers have small pee pees.
(Lighten up)
DBTH - BJ
(Oh to contribute..... I'll never get a UDP my lights fade when the bass hits right now. I don't need to exacerbate the situation by lowering the speed of my accesory belt).
We could take it down to math though. Explain to me how a UDP wouln't add the gains spoken of. The proof is in the object. The real question is do you doubt that his gains were caused by the UDP, or are you just nitpicking in an effort to zing Dave? Sure we can't give a perfect power number that the UDP provides...... but who gives a rats ***. Dave's post was informative. He gave us facts from tests, some nice dyno number and most of all the beginning of another fun thread that devolves into meaningless flames regarding ***** size.
Bottom line is that a UDP adds power. There's no way it couldn't. Same way that lighter rims lower rotating mass thereby increasing acceleration. It may be miniscule but it's there..... and after reading this thread..... the same could probably be true about other things as well..... Have a Nice day.
PS engineers have small pee pees.
(Lighten up)
DBTH - BJ
(Oh to contribute..... I'll never get a UDP my lights fade when the bass hits right now. I don't need to exacerbate the situation by lowering the speed of my accesory belt).
We could take it down to math though. Explain to me how a UDP wouln't add the gains spoken of. The proof is in the object. The real question is do you doubt that his gains were caused by the UDP, or are you just nitpicking in an effort to zing Dave? Sure we can't give a perfect power number that the UDP provides...... but who gives a rats ***. Dave's post was informative. He gave us facts from tests, some nice dyno number and most of all the beginning of another fun thread that devolves into meaningless flames regarding ***** size.
Bottom line is that a UDP adds power. There's no way it couldn't. Same way that lighter rims lower rotating mass thereby increasing acceleration. It may be miniscule but it's there..... and after reading this thread..... the same could probably be true about other things as well..... Have a Nice day.
02-12-2002, 05:47 PM
#63
Not DAVEB the parts guy
Thread Starter
Join Date: Aug 2000
Posts: 8,555
Well, I've been getting rocked at work and I didn't have time to use the scanner in the office because I'm doing oversite for a field job; however I took a digital pic of my dyno graph. Unfortunately, my camera is junk and you can't read the numbers, but you can clearly see the increase in power in the curves, especially after 4800rpms. The HP axis (left) starts at 60 and goes up in 10 increments. The RPM axis (bottom) starts at 2000 and ends at 6500 with 500 increments. The TQ axis (right) starts at 110 and goes up in 10 increments. My old dyno is shown in the green. The new dyno is shown in the red and blue. As you will see, my car was incredibly consistent on back to back runs within 5 minutes. The horizontal line is roughly where peak power occurs. Everyone should note that this plot looks pretty dramatic, but remember all the axis' start at different numbers which will skew the plot a bit. I wish the shop would use the same axis numbers on both sides.
Couple of corrections:
It appears the old combo made slightly more power (1-2hp and 1-2tq) from 2100 to 3300rpms at certain increments. After 3300, the new combo takes hold. It didn't notice this until my wife pointed it out to me. I'm a bit color-blind and have a hard time seeing some greens.
Stereodude will be unhappy to note that there is roughly a linear increase in power. As for variables, let us also throw in that my car has 15000 more miles, different oil, different gas (same company - 91 octane), very dirty air filter, and different oil with 4000 miles.
Hopefully this pic will answer the question:
http://home.earthlink.net/~thunderlt...ctures0002.jpg
Dave
Couple of corrections:
It appears the old combo made slightly more power (1-2hp and 1-2tq) from 2100 to 3300rpms at certain increments. After 3300, the new combo takes hold. It didn't notice this until my wife pointed it out to me. I'm a bit color-blind and have a hard time seeing some greens.
Stereodude will be unhappy to note that there is roughly a linear increase in power. As for variables, let us also throw in that my car has 15000 more miles, different oil, different gas (same company - 91 octane), very dirty air filter, and different oil with 4000 miles.
Hopefully this pic will answer the question:
http://home.earthlink.net/~thunderlt...ctures0002.jpg
Dave
02-12-2002, 07:02 PM
#64
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Join Date: Sep 2001
Location: Detroit Metro Area
Posts: 1,617
Originally posted by Dave B
Stereodude will be unhappy to note that there is roughly linear increase in power. As for varibles, let us also throw in that my car has 15000 more miles, different oil, different gas (same company - 91 octane), very dirty air filter, and different oil with 4000 miles.
Hopefully this pic will answer the question:
http://home.earthlink.net/~thunderlt...ctures0002.jpg
Dave
Stereodude will be unhappy to note that there is roughly linear increase in power. As for varibles, let us also throw in that my car has 15000 more miles, different oil, different gas (same company - 91 octane), very dirty air filter, and different oil with 4000 miles.
Hopefully this pic will answer the question:
http://home.earthlink.net/~thunderlt...ctures0002.jpg
Dave
Stereodude
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