Not really, just a picture of what i did last weekend in case you're bored. Probably the last really good cleaning my cars will see until the spring (bastards shut my hose off).

http://max2ksprung.tripod.com/pics/MaxVsSi.JPG

Kinda funny but I like driving the Si around more than the Max and we paid $7k less for it!! But I'll never tell the wife that or she'll want to drive my Max more often. Of course the Max is much better for any trip longer than an hour though.

 

Well that's not that suprising... when I get bored, I pick up keys to the crx, not the maxima. They are simple more enjoyable to drive. And I think you know what I mean.

-Shing

 

I thought you crept up to Capitol Raceway or somethin'... It's great you have an option.. The Max is like a Sunday car like an S500 for poor FTE's like us whereas the civic is like your little z3 to have fun in with the top down..

 

hehe Shing, I knew you'd be one of the first to reply. Yes I do know what you mean, it's like driving a go-cart vs a riding mower LOL! Well not quite that extreme, the Max truley is a nicer car just not suited as well for high spirited driving. The two really do offer me the best of both worlds, for the money I couldn't have picked a better combination of vehicles. If I could squeeze the qualities of both cars into one I think I'd end up with an M5!

Here's 2 more:
http://max2ksprung.tripod.com/pics/MaxSi.JPG
http://max2ksprung.tripod.com/pics/MaxSi2.JPG

 

Yeah I wish...S500 and Z3, I've got a real poor mans version of that scenario, but you work with what you've got right.

I did take the Si up there a few weeks ago, I managed a 16.1 without getting too roudy on the cars driveline.

[Edited by sprung on 11-16-2000 at 09:29 PM]

 

You should put 'Max vs. SI' in the FAQ, Shing.lol

 

Sprung-

How many miles you have on the Si? My buddy just bought a EBP 2000 Si this week and I took it out for a "hard" spin because my buddy forced me I couldn't feel any of this "hitting the VTEC" as the Honda guys describe. I wound it up to 8000 in 1st and 2nd and I was pretty unimpressed with the car's performance compared to my Max. His Si has 7500 miles on it and I was left thinking that maybe the motor is still too "new" to really perform. It sure didn't feel like a 15 second car. Honestly, it felt about as quick as my old 90 CRX Si. The overall handling, braking, and feel of the Si was very good. The shifter felt crisp and very light (I don't know if I like it or not), but the clutch was way too light for my tastes. What is your take on this?

Dave

 

Not really sure about the B16A, but I think the cam profiles aren't that agressive. So you don't feel the kick as much as on, maybe an ITR. You get a better idea from watching the tach than feeling it with the seat of your pants. An intake will help you hear the switch over. Possibly feel it more too. With intake.. the sound goes from.. a buzz to a pissed off sound. Who begs another person to beat on their cars anyways? =P Wacko.. hehe

ZuM

 

Is your friend's car stock? One the B16 the VTEC is more heard than felt.

I've said this before and I'll say it again, torque lies... makes you think you car is faster than it is. If you drive a honda expecting it to pin you in your seat you will be disappointed. When a car has torque, it feels faster than it really is. Plus if you take a honda down a drag strip and try to enjoy it that way, you won't be happy. Civics/Tegs are to be enjoyed on twisty roads and road courses. BTW believe me, it's faster than your 90 CRX Si, those thing run 17second stock. I know, mine used to, 17.1 to be exact.

There is an exception to all of what I said above. In my CRX, you definately know when VTEC kicks in. One, you are going to be gently pushed back ont he seats and two if you look at the tack, it simply rushes to redline very fast.

BTW as a reference... I was running the car hard a few days ago... testing things out... doing a shake down. Launched at 3000rpm, slipped the clutch a little... tire spin all the way till about 6500, shifted at 8000rpm, hit second, didn't chirp, but spung the tires for a good 2 seconds.


-Shing

 

I should stop reading this thread... it makes me want to buy a Honda with DOHC VTEC.. hehe

 

Come drive my car... promise you will want one. Everyone that's ever driven the CRX... especially at the autox course, FIRST thing out of the car "MAN! I WANT one of these!"... my good buddy Jesse actually went and bought one 2 weeks later. hahaha

-Shin

 

Hmmmm...only a 17.1 out of your Si? Yikes!!! Mine ran a 16.4@86mph with a muffler back in 94.

Torque doesn't necessarily lie. It does give the feel of better acceleration because the car is accelerating harder at that moment. It is a more seat of the pants feel, but my buddies Si is not that quick. Torque is just a factor of hp. Honda's are all hp and no torque. That's why I instantly put lots of distance on Hondas and Acuras off the line. With the mods on my Max, it actually feels as if my car has a VTEC or a turbo. I can feel a substainal jump and quick jump in power from 3000-4000. Many 95/96 Max owners feel this after they do mods. This sensation in acceleration is what I was expecting to feel in the Si.

Dave

 

17.1 bone stock with a 60lb speaker box.

I think it all depends... I know for a fact taht you probably do put a lot of distance on the hondas races.. but if the guy knows how to launch the car, it won't be that far off...

I think the VQ natually has a power peak at 3000rpm... it is definately more noticeable with mods.

-Shing

[/I][/QUOTE]


[/I][/QUOTE]

 

Oh no!! look what I started...another "why Honda rules" session with Shing, LOL!! j/k bud.

First off I want to retract the statment I made earlier comparing the Max to a lawn tractor, that was just to stress how different the cars are. The Max is by no means anything like a riding mower, BUT the Si really is like a go cart! Straight line accel. is not the best part of this Honda, tossing it side to side on a back road or offramps at unheard of speeds is what it's all about. The Si has enough power to make this more fun than the straight line #'s would lead you to believe.

To comment on the "when VTEC kicked in" misconception, DaveB you're impression was right on, you can't feel the VTEC change-over but you can certainly hear it. And it's kind of a magical moment, it marks the point where most cars must shift b/c their motor is out of breath and the B16 KEEPS PULLING all the way to 8k rpm. Compared to the Max it's not much competion in stock form, but it IS deceptively quick.
A short story about my friend w/ a 5spd 92 Accord EX, he drove the Si and had pretty much the same response you did...he was convinced his Accord would run with and probably beat the little civic that could. Until he egged me on enough to go to the track, where he redlighted me and took a 1-2 car lead off the line, and he held that lead until I got past the magic 5,500 rpm in 1st, then I began to gain, and gain, and gain, until I had a good 2 car lead on him by the end! When we got the timeslips it ended up like this Si: 16.1@87mph vs 92 Accord EX: 17.2@82mph. I clearly smoked him and put an end to his doubtful attitude towards the Si Muhahaha!

But overall the two cars have a very different feel, the Max is more of a fine touring car with it's taut suspension and powerful VQ, it handles well and pulls exceptionally. While the Si is a true sport compact, it's suspension is firm and well controlled, while it's motor is responsive and eager to rev, The handling is exceptional and instills complete confidence while it has enough power to shame some motors with twice its displacement.

Sorry for the long report, just trying to be as clear as possible. My Max and the Si are both fantastic cars, I like them both equally and don't regret buying either one at all. Over a year w/ the Max and almost a year w/ the Civic I'm convinced I couldn't have got a better combo to meet my needs and for the money we could spend.

 

Wow... a VERY objective post. I like that! Didn't know you had it in ya ;-). just messing with ya.

You know... when I got my swap working... the first time I hit VTEC, I smiled. Everytime I hit VTEC I smile. I also smile when I look down on my rpms and it says 8000.

A Stock B16 can only really be heard instead of felt. A modified one can be felt for sure. IT's interesting cause in my car, you can feel it more than you can hear it. The pitch changes.

About being deceptive... it's true. It's interesting... after I swapped, I noticed that the crx would gain speed so much faster than before that I thought my speedo was wrong. Thing is, it made the same amount of noise, you know intake exhaust, as before... but the speed is higher at that same sound. I often find myself passing, look down, and am doing 80 on a 45mph road. *shrug*

Hondas aren't for everyone. If you like NASCAR, you'll hate Hondas. If you like F1s high revving type of motor, you'll love honda. I started to be impressed with Hondas when I first had a civic and I literally tried to break it so I could get a new car. It wouldn't break. Then I learned about them and their engines.... hooked for life.

-Shing

 

i could relate to that "sporty car" feeling. my father drives a new '01 subaru impreza 2.5 RS. i know for a fact that the maxima can smoke it on the straightline. however, the impreza's seats fit me way better especially during hard cornering. there is little body roll (much better cornering with AWD). the pedals are perfect for heel and toe shifting. the shift linkage is tighter. all in all its so much fun! the flat brassy sounding four gives me an adrenaline rush sometimes. nice low end torque too. wish i can put a stage 2 turbo on it so it can put out around 300hp. hmm, nice to dream sometimes, but we'll see!

 

I love the duality of the engines. I just wish they had a bit more torque. Did anyone know the almighty NSX only makes 230lb-ft? A 5th gen makes 228 or something, doesn't it?:/ Well I'm sure Honda will fix it with the V8 powerd NSX that's coming up.

 

224 lb-ft @ 5500 RPM
290 hp @ 7100 RPM
3069lbs

tons faster than a Maxima. So to me it doesn't matter that it makes "only" 224 lb-ft

-Shing

 

I wasn't comparing outright speed of the NSX to the Max. It's no contest. I was just wondering why it makes so little torque. Not slammin' 'em or anything. I want one, remember?
Imagine how fast it'd be if it made as much torque as most cars do in proportion to their hp output. Most cars make just a little more or a little less torque than they do hp. The NSX-and the other Hondas for that matter-would be even faster if they could do that.

 

Acutally honda motors make more hp than other's... go look at the GSR, makes about the same torque as any 1.8 liter.

-Shing

 

I'm pretty sure the 5th gen peaks out at about 217lb/ft, I know that mine puts down about 190 to the pavement. But an NSX will smoke me unfortunately..and w/ only 200 more cc's. That's what impresses me about Honda engineering...no boost, just engineering. Okay, okay now i'm starting to sound like Shing (Lord have mercy) hehe.

The most important thing to keep in mind when you think about the Si it's that it only displaces 1.6 liters, just a little under 1,600cc, heck BIKES have bigger motors! Sure they aren't torque monsters but tell that to a 929RR and he'll laugh.

The funny thing about fast vehicles is that there's always gonna be something faster. The Max is fast and all but something that happened put everything in perspective for me. I was visiting my parents one weekend, hanging out with my Bro and an old friend and I took my buddy for his first ride in a 5th gen. Long sraight road I'm familiar with and I just opened it up, not going all out but pushing pretty hard got up to about 120 and I look in the rearview...before I can say "check this ou...t" a ZX-9R(Ninja) goes by me like I'm doing 75. We get up to a light together eventually and my passanger rolls down the window so we can show our respect and he says to me "You were hauling a$$ back there", hehe. All I could say was "I WAS?"

Not sure where I'm going with this (getting late), I say just appreciate what you have and don't let what anyone else has bother you, if you don't, try it and you'll see things in a much better light.

[Edited by sprung on 11-16-2000 at 11:38 PM]

 

I agree with Dave B. I feel almost a turbo like boost right after 3000RRPM and no VTEC. Is this something just in 95-96 Maximas? I know these are the lightest years.

Not to start flames, but I think VTEC is slightly over rated. I know of plenty of cars that have the same concept, some back to the late 80's and don't slap the fancy term on a finder and have an army of followers that swear to it, and those that don't even have it will slap it on as its the coolest thing sense sliced cheese.

[Edited by TexMaximum on 11-17-2000 at 01:28 AM]

 

The 92-94 SE maximas have VTC.. which is almost similar to VTEC. I don't have variable control timing or anything like that on my max.. I just have a 12-valve, SOHC 160hp, 182ft-lb torque.. VG30E engine.

 

It's called peaky power curve.

And Honda has had VTEC for aLONG time... since mid 80s. It was first introduced in 90 I think with the NSX.. but in japan, they've had it for a long itme. It's only over-rated in the sense that everyone knows what it is. If you look at the technology it is VERY impressive. VTEC really isn't a "fancy" name, it's just sort for what it does Variable Valve Timing and Lift Control... check out this site for more info. http://www.g-speed.com/pbh/ae-honda-tech.html

-Shing

 

The Max has variable timing, not variable timing and lift right?

 

Well that is the 3.2 V6, the 3.0 V6 in the auto NSX puts 252hp @ 6600rpm/210lb-ft @ 5300rpm with a 7500rpm redline. The 5spd NSX had the 270hp/210lb-ft 3.0 V6. Here is an interesting question I have dyno charts of stock NSX's and supercharged maxima's. Now do you believe a 5spd maxima SC would equal or beat a stock 3.0/3.2 NSX? Gearing, weight, aerodynamics are about the same. Basically the only real difference is the FWD vs RWD. IMHO a supercharged maxima should hang with a NSX in a drag race. Considering both put down around the same power, but the maxima would have more useable torque though.

 

I didn't realize how more fun these small cars are to drive. Even my mom's civic was more fun to drive than my maxima was. However it comes down to the auto vs 5spd and 2280lb sedan vs my 3210lb sedan. Obvisouly the civic is alot slower and once I put my springs, FSTB, RSB my car was finnaly more fun to drive. But I should point out mod for mod the civic wins hands down. Now if I could only get KYB AGX's for my max. But KYB AGX's with eibachs are good enough for me.

 

Quote:

Well that is the 3.2 V6, the 3.0 V6 in the auto NSX puts 252hp @ 6600rpm/210lb-ft @ 5300rpm with a 7500rpm redline. The 5spd NSX had the 270hp/210lb-ft 3.0 V6. Here is an interesting question I have dyno charts of stock NSX's and supercharged maxima's. Now do you believe a 5spd maxima SC would equal or beat a stock 3.0/3.2 NSX? Gearing, weight, aerodynamics are about the same. Basically the only real difference is the FWD vs RWD. IMHO a supercharged maxima should hang with a NSX in a drag race. Considering both put down around the same power, but the maxima would have more useable torque though.

Maybe, but th NSX is more than just RWD it's a mid engine car. You may be able to make it as fast but it will never handle as well. I've seen an NSX w/ NOS and if I had to say, I think it would outrun a supercharged Max...but then again it costs $88,000 plus taxes.

 

I really do love Honda's and Acura's as long as they're not riced out. I think the Civic Si has lots of potential with just a few well choosen mods. I also think my buddies Si needs another 10000 miles of break in. Atleast it's good to know the car wasn't beat on by the prior owner. It still has a soft clutch, but it grabs hard. The tires are hardly worn and the brakes are the same. Maybe the stock performance feel of the Si is a little misleading.

Another close friend has a 89 Civic hatch with a B16 with the rare LSD, ported TB, header, no cat, full catback, and intake. This freaking thing pulls hard and I can't feel the VTEC kick over either. Even though he's only managed 15.6s@92mph in the car, after driving it I think it's faster than my car. This car is a complete sleeper. It's a baby blue DX hatch with Civic Si wheels and coil overs. He gets the rice boys picking on him and I'm sure you know the outcome. He's got about $7000 in the car and mods

Dave

 

Okay I'll slip in here. One of my brothers has a GSR Integra. It's very nice and I can definately tell when the higher cam engages. That is ONE SWEET MOTOR. It NEEDS to be reved but hey.. it likes it and does all day, every day for 100k+ miles. The sweet thing that the pull does NOT drop off, it revs AND PULLS right into the redline. Now my modded VE30DE is similar in many ways. It has more grunt down low but at 3.0 liters, it better have. The dohc heads and the VTC assemblies also make this car a rever. It can't spin like the 1.8 Vtec but it hauls *** petty good too. This engine also will rev & pull right into the redline also. But I'm modded and the GSR is 100% stock. We drive each other's cars and he's pretty suprised on how well my car handles and revs for a family hauler.

Both cars are nice, but different. The teg is a basic commuter car w/ a sweet engine and fun handling. The maxima is a 4 people hauler w/ a sweet engine and decent handling. BOTH of these cars perform dual duties very well.

 

v-tec is no fun w/o mods you need the mods so you can hear the v-tec "scream" if you stop driving it for a week or so and take it to a track or open road you might feel the v-tec kick in