Hey all

Synthetics Question... a friend of mine is a die hard Mobil 1 fan. He had found out today that mobil 1 will no longer be using the same formula. Instead of being synthetic. It will have regular oil, but superpurified. With some additives. He was saying that he's probably not going to bother using mobil1 anymore.

I plan on switching over to another brand also. One that is pure synthetic.

Question: what brand would you recommend switching to?
(if this is in the sticky i will hit myself )

I'm considering amsoil... but i need to find a dealer in my area that would sell it...

anywho.... just curious what brand to goto next hehe

 

It still says synthetic right here... http://www.mobil1.com/products/trisynth/index.jsp
Legally they cannot advertise it as synthetic if it is not.

 

Mobil is still a synthetic even though the formulation changed. Now, similar to Castrol Syntec, their oils are made by chemical reactions (insert really big words here) using a petroleum base stock. Amsoil and Redline use chemically created base stocks, and Amsoil has a superior additive package as well.

If you would like Amsoil you can order through me and it can be shipped directly to you. Amsoil has distribution centers throughout the country and a few in Canada. Your order would probably be processed through the one in Toronto.

The link to my website is below if you decide to go that route.

 

Yes they can. Mobil sued Castrol for their bogus Syntec. Mobil lost. Now, since Castrol can get away with making a "synthetic" oil for less cost than making the original Mobil 1, what do you think Mobil's going to have to do to stay in business?? Can't beat 'em, join 'em. Mobil was the good guy and he got burnt. Nice guys finish last.

DW

 

i always thought synthetic oils takes regular oil (used maybe?) and add additives and etc in it to preform better than regular oil.

and then of course the amsoil/redline where that stuff is all made in a lab somewhere.

 

From the descriptions of the process on the Mobil website it appears that Mobil 1 is still a true synthetic, not a re-refined crude oil. Apparently the tri-synthetic name is because of the addition of another type of base stock to enhance some of the desirable characteristics. Since Porsche, Aston Martin, BMW, AMG, GM etc. are still convinced I certainly see no reason to change, given the price difference for Redline and Amsoil (which are the only ones that might be superior).

Dave

 

this is what i've been hearing... they basically are going to start using regular oil... refine the hell out of it... add the that tri-
mixture... and then sell it cheaper. I think i might go with amsoil or somethnig at that point.

 

Great...when ya find something that is good and you will actually put in your machine...they change it...ugg. Looks like I will be going to Amsoil. Just hate having to have liquid shipped. Expensive.

 

curious but if i order it through the web site... will they find the closest location to ship it to me from? ie they will dispatch the order to a TO location to be shipped to montreal. Making it cheaper on shipping?

 

Yes, the shipping with Amsoil is based on the weight shipped. They do not figure out the distance or anything like that. It's only a flat rate based on weight. They will ship from the closest distribution center to your location. If you order 5 quarts and 1 oil filter, it will cost anybody here $5.55 if you live in the continental U.S. I'm going to double check the actual costs involved for your particular case since your in Canada, but I don't expect a significant difference due to the fact there is a distribution center in Toronto.

 

Processed crude oil contains molecules of varying weight and density. Synthetic oil is made from a synthetic base where all the molecules are exactly the same, which is why it can perform better. Imagine an oil where all the molecules are the same size ball bearings, vs. one where they vary from ball bearings to basketballs. It's just better science.

 

Amsoil uses a polyalphaolefin base stock which is created by combining ethylene molecules into hydrocarbon chains of uniform size and shape.

Redline is a polyolester base synthesized from a chemical reaction between an alcohol and an acid.

Castrol Syntec is made from a hydroisomerized and hydrocracked PETROLEUM DISTALLATE. Basically, they create a synthetic from a non-synthetic.

Now, for Mobil 1 it's a little more involved. They use three different main compounds, hence the tri-synthetic label. Similar to Amsoil, one component is a polyalphaolefin, the second is a synthetic ester and the third is an alkylated aromatic fluid. It's the third compound that is interesting. An aromatic is a component of petroleum oil, and in fact is one of the compounds in dino oil that promotes seal swelling (the other synthetics use additives for this same issue to remain more pure). Notice I said PETROLEUM oil. This is where the new formulation comes in. Mobil claims this is in there oil in order to make it fully compatible with conventional oils, yet Amsoil and Redline manage to do this in other ways, which actually cost more money, but in my opinion, produce a better oil.

True synthetic oils have far fewer impurities in them, allowing them to offer superior protection. True, Mobil 1 and Castrol Syntec is still better than a conventional oil, and in fact I have used Mobil in the past with excellent results, but Amsoil and Redline take things to the next level. Now that I know a little more about oils, ror the small price difference involved, I want the best in my engine because I work it VERY hard and want it to last.

 

I'm glad you took the opportunity to explain it as I was not willing to make the effort.


Technically, Redline's polyol process is better in the extremes than Amsoil's PAO process. Mobile 1's old proces was PAO similar to Amsoil, but in the interests of making money through having more cars from the factory equipped with its product, Mobile 1 changed their process to make it more "compatible" with out of the factory products and also changed their additives to reduce the risk of premature exhaust system failure (i.e. reducing life of catalytic converter and thus posing possible warranty issues for a manufacturer a few years down the road)......

 

As a senior majoring in chemical engineering, I find this an interesting topic. Now, I'm sure I don't know as much about oil as the "oil fanatics" on this board, but I do know a decent deal about chemical processes. Even if Mobil is just going to "refine the hell" out of regular oil, I wouldn't be too alarmed. Even when you start with a base molecule, the reaction to produce that molecule produces many side products which are unwanted and need to removed. In truth, 90% of the petroleum business is seperations -- getting what you want from a mess of molecules that you don't. It might just be that it is now cheaper for Mobil to purify their forumlation from a cut of crude, rather than buying monomer, reacting it and purifying it. My $0.02.

 

I just read some info. Mobil is using super refined Petro based oil. Apparently is 50% than PAO bases(synthetics that Amsoil, Redline etc uses). I think Bill(as ususal) has a point. One other point is that Mobil 1 apparently lost some type of lawsuit against Castrol over what makers can truely call "synthetic". Courts ruled that if you use super refined petro-oil, you can still use the name "synthetic". So to keep price competitive, they introduced Tri-Synthetic that has less PAOs and more Petros. One result that one person noted is the higher cold pour point of the Tri-synthetic. Further proof that the addition of Petro based stocks made the performance if this oil worse.

The sad thing about the lawsuit is that now even us informed consumers are going to have to be chemical engineers to tell what oils on the market are truely synthetic or not.

It's a good thing we have some oil fanatics here to keep us on top of things. Good job to Russ, Bill, and you other guys.

 

i just think that in you mind your know your buying a synthetic oil product. Yet in reality it's not pure anymore like they said it is.

Amsoil is truly synthetic. You want synthetic, you get it. Unlike Mobil1 which is actually nolonger 100% synth.

My knowledge for oil was not very strong, but within the past day, it's increased dramatically hehe

on the upside, the will be able to sell mobil1 synth for a lower price

i like oil topics... they keep you ontop of the oil industry

 

Jayy --- clubrsx forums
-----------------------------

I just got off the phone with a Mobil 1 technical representative and I asked him about the changes. First, he verified for me that the new specs, particularly the new pour point specs were accurate. (I thought that they might be a misprint because the pumpability spec is a colder temp than the pour point! I still think there's something wrong with that.) Then he told me that the changes were made to incorporate additives for better wear protection. So essentially he said that some of the low and high temperature performance of certain grades was sacrificed for better wear protection.

As far as traditional synthetic versus hydrocracked petroleum synthetic goes, I don't care so much about the process as the end result. The representative told me that the basestock formulation hasn't changed, just that there are fewer of them (basestocks) to make room for the wear protection additives.

The problem with his explanation is that we have to take Mobil1's word that the wear protection of the new formulation is better than the old. That feature doesn't show up in any published spec, but the other sacrificed properties sure show up in the specs!

So Mobil 1 has an image problem now at the very least.

 

Sounds like a list of half or 2/3 truths to cover up what they are really doing.....making the product more palatable for automakers to use as factory fill, thus increasing their volume and sales. Nothing wrong with that, but it's not readily admitted to. Personally, I would play the "blame game" and say it is API and the automakers "nudging" me to adjust their formulas so that I can still have the stupid label and be standard factory fill on 'Vettes, Porsches, etc...


I still don't have a problem recommending Mobile 1, but I don't think anyone should go over 10k with 5k filter changes on it.......Russ's old Max and TimW's Maxima in the spreadsheet really cause an area of concern over going more than 5k on it given certain driving conditions....


The threads the past couple of days have got to be some of the more intelligent ones we have ever had on this topic.....I'm fairly confused as to why.....

 

I was talking to a friend about Amsoil and he wanted to switch, but he has a brand new Cadillac and he gets free dealer servicing for 100k, so I don't think that'll happen. Then he thought of using it for his wife's Jeep, but that has 140k on it with conventional oil, so I don't think it's a good bet for a changeover to synthetic now.

That's funny! Maybe brain cells waking up for Spring Break?

 

I was considering going over 5k for oil changes using mobil 1, but this is causing me concern now... I'm going to try amsoil next oil change and see how that performs. I should really try getting my oil analysed

I agree, it's great hehe

 

As long as the Jeep isn't burning oil and operates normally, there should be no harm going to a synthetic. On my 94: at 36k I went to synthetic, then at 76k I went back to dino, then at 96k I went back to synthetic. I have still yet to burn a drop of oil.

The Caddy needs all the help it can get, although if an oil change is a PITA, then I would have the dealer do it as well....



I'm old school, I thought Spring Break was for LOSING brain cells!?!

 

Well, I think 10k changes with 5k filter changes on Mobile 1 would be fine, but it is best to have your vehicle analyzed first and then go from their recommendations as such intervals should be dictated on your specific intervals rather than whatever I grab out of my butt (even if it is based on some degree of data from the spreadsheet).

If you want a Blackstone sample kit and need to do this immediately, let me know and I can send one to you.....

 

It's nice to see an actual productive thread on oil for a change instead of the usual BS turning into a catfight.

 

My friend is going to ask the dealer if he can bring his own oil in when he gets it done. He isn't a DIY kinda guy.

Me too on spring break. I guess it's the hormones that wake up, not the brain cells. Must've lost too many myself

 

How much is it for the kit? I noticed a free sample kit and one for
18$ Plus another 10$ for the TBN. Should i get that also?

So far my car is at 85,000 miles and i'm about 3k from changing my oil

what would you recommend i get? My assumption would be a free sample kit, plus a TBN, since this is my first time getting my oil checked...

Edit: I am a bit slow today... after finishing to read the sticky on the blackstone stuff. i noticed you said, get the free sample kit and (in my case) order a TBN

you mention you can send one to me?

 

Yeah, the "free" sample kit is just a plastic container and bottle for storage, along with an invoice where you give details about your car, etc. It's on that sheet that you say you want a TBN analysis done for an extra $10 on top of the $18 analysis charge.

I was just offering to send you one if you are going to change your oil soon, as Blackstone takes a few weeks to get you one after you have requested it.......if you need it quickly, just shoot me an e-mail.....

 

oh ok cool. I still have like 2k left before an oil change. I'll probably order it off blackstone directly. I'm in no hurry for now.

Thanks a bunch though

 

Can you really go for over 30k miles on one oil change of Amsoil synthetic oil? I don't know if I'd be that comfortable running for that long w/o an oil change.

 

Personally i'd be willing to try amsoil and go for like 15,000 miles before an oil change... not the whole 25k though, i'm not ready for that yet

 

You can go that long depending on your driving conditions and when you change the filter. However, you shouldn't just go from a normal change interval to 30K. You should do it in incremental steps and use an oil analysis program that will help you determine the safe interval for your particular engine based on your particular driving conditions. The oil itself can be capable of going for that long, but not in every case because everyone operates their engines differently. If you start adding by-pass filters into the equation you can get ridicuosly long intervals out of the oil, but that's a whole other can of worms.

To get a general idea of how long you might be able to go with your driving conditions, check out the many different real world examples in Bill's spreadsheet.

 

I saw in an earlier post that you were willing to ship amsoil through it's national distributors. do they have a local distributor here in hawaii...honolulu to be exact?
Also, as far as how far i can go between oil changes...
currently my 97 5 speed has about 36k miles. I have had the car for only a few months, but have done 2 oil changes at about 3k miles or so. I believe that the previous driver also took good care of this car because it seems to run very well. I do drive my car fairly hard as i love to hear the engine growl at wot. i'm not out racing ricers, but do like to spin the tires once in a while. i am seriousely considering either a supercharger or turbo upgrade. under these driving conditions, what kind of oil change interval do you think would be reasonable to expect from a change over to amsoil?
You also said to get an oil analysis done to check my quality. what kind of places do this kind of service?
I am really glad this topic came up. i have about 2k more miles to my next change and i was considering switching to synthetics anyway. perfect timing.
Aloha,
Kanaka

 

everyone keeps talking about amsoil; i know they r one of, if not, the best, but i thought that redline was a better performing oil? or have i been mislead?

 

Amsoil invented synthetic motor oil. Anything else need to be said

For a while I thought it was Mobil who invented synth

DW

 

This is a very informational thread especially in light of all the results from the oil spreadsheel Bill if I may direct some questions in your direction:
I am able to get redline locally at a decent price, but I considered Amsoil just because I can order a case and get the Amsoil filters. Do you think it's worth it to buy Redline over Amsoil and go for an extended drain interval of 15k or so? If I did go with Redline what filter should I use? I've also used synthetic Royal Purple in the past and it was just as highly reccomended as the Redline, but no one ever seems to mention it.
I plan on submitting my Mobil1 oil at ~5k soon and I'll get my oil analyzed with my TBN. I drive almost totally highway between Dallas and Austin (220 miles door to door) 2 times a weekend every other weekend. I also have 4 track runs on this oil so it should be an interesting addition to the spreadsheet.

On a final note, when I emailed Blackstone about a test kit they got it to me within a week and a half which I thought was fairly quickly.
-hype

 

Both Amsoil and Redline are premium oils, but Amsoil's data indicates better performance on the wear test. Plus, if you are a preferred customer or dealer with Amsoil, it's cheaper than buying Redline at retail.

 

I am not sure what TBN is?! What does that test do, and why and how often should we do it? I am still waiting for my new blackstone bottles, but they just emailed me today saying they are out right now and expect some coming in. So, they recommend me using any container to put it in as long as its clean, and transfer it to theirs once I get them in.

 

Shipping to Hawaii is possible, but I'll have to look into the exact costs involved.

I imagine you end up doing lots of stop and go driving with short trips in Hawaii, which are pretty severe conditions for the oil. If you were to use Amsoil and their filter I wouldn't want to go anymore than 5K if I were you. Oil analysis can help you determine what you could safely extend out to, but I would use 5K as the absolute maximum figure without the analysis. The oil analysis can be done at several different labs throughout the country. Oil Analyzer's, which is affiliated with Amsoil, and Blackstone Labs are two that come to mind. I actually prefer Blackstone even though it would be cheaper for me to use Oil Analyzers. Blackstone is a little more personal in their reports and I think they are easier to interpret. They will also send you a free kit to take the sample with. For a little more detailed info on this and for several examples, please see Bill's spreadsheet.

 

TBN is total base number, which is an indication of how much of the additive package has been used and how much usefull life the oil has.

 

Redline performs better in terms of outright performance if we are measuring power, but from a longevity standpoint Amsoil has the better additive package. If you want that extra 1/4hp, use Redline, but if you want tp protect your engines as best as you can and still be able to rip around at full throttle, I prefer Amsoil. They are both excellent oils, it depends where your priorities are. I'll gladly give up that extra tiny amount of power for better protection when I'm running my car flat out on the road course.

 

iwannabmw is right. Based upon what little data we have and what I have gathered privately, Redline is not the best oil for extended drain intervals. Their advertising is more focused around outright performance than extended drain intervals, which strikes me as their target audience rather than someone like myself.

In an update to the spreadsheet due soon, it is interesting to see the TBN values of Amsoil vehicles after many thousands of miles. It's quite astonishing. The only Redline vehicle we have in the line up had a TBN value MUCH lower after several thousand miles.