Well, its finally happened, Amsoil has changed its base stock formulation on its XL-7500 series oils! I just received the June issue of Amsoil Action News and the title of the article is "Amsoil changes XL-7500 Formula to enhance oils, stay competitive." Sounds remarkably similar to Mobil's literature about its new Super-Syn version. The details go on to say that the change was in response to the ruling in 99 that Group III base oils are "synthetic" even though they are made from crude oil base components. Since Castrol, Mobil and others use Group III base stocks and promote them as full synthetics, Amsoil says that in order to remain cost competitive, they had to follow suit! I was about to order some XL-7500 for my next oil change....looks like I'm hitting Walmart at lunch looking for the last few quarts of Mobil Tri-synthetic...Oh what a sad, sad day...

 

It's all Castrol's fault, and also we, the people, b/c we let the courts rule that Calling Castrol Syntec "Full Synthetic" was OK. Mobil and Amsoil are innocent victims.

DW

 

Is Redline a true synthetic? If it is, I'll just have to move to them. It may be more expensive, but I think its worth it.

 

Don't forget that the 25K and 35K formulations of Amsoil's oils are currently still fully synthetic PAO (Group IV) base stocks. Redlines formulations are fully synthetic ester base stocks (Group V). Both will outperform anything else on the market. Its just sad to see that Amsoil has succumbed to the pressure....

 

So is Amsoil going to be cheaper

 

Amsoil still makes a full synthetic oil. As srbanes4ever stated amsoil is changing the XL-7500 line of oil. The XL-7500 is marketed a step below the full synthetic oil amsoil makes. XL-7500 oil is supposed to be changed every 7,500 miles. The full synthetic oil amsoil makes can be changed yearly as long as you change filters at a specified interval.

 

There's no need to get all bent outta shape. The XL-7500 series of Amsoil has always been their "cheap" oil, actually used to compete against the mainstream oils. However, it's unfortunate they have had to cave in on this.

Just don't buy XL-7500 Amsoil and it won't matter.......and I have never recommended this series because it was marketed as a "mainstream" oil and I thought they would have to do this garbage to remain competetive....


All who all of a sudden want to switch are knee-jerk reacting to an oil that isn't even recommended here.......There is a difference between regular Amsoil full synthetic and the XL-7500 oil.

 

Bill I agree with your knee-jerk reaction statement, but I have always understood that the XL-7500, while being their 'mainstream' oil, was fully synthetic with Group IV base stocks but with a tad bit lower additives to meet API certification requirements. Thus, if someone wanted to change oil every 7500k miles, then this oil would function only a small step below the top 2 oils in that regard. Was I wrong. I never used it, but in fact I was going to use it until I get to the bottom of this bearing wear crap I'm dealing with...now I'm stuck with Mobil or some other possibly Group III stocked shiieet masquerading as a full synthetic! Anyway, you're right, for most of us, keep using either of the top 2 versions and you'll be OK for many miles to come.

 

You're correct. At first, I thought about using it because it would be virtually the same as the regular Amsoil synthetic. Then, after the lawsuits, etc. I figured Amsoil would have to cave in and go the route of Castrol for that oil.

The day they change their other oils to Group III base stocks is the day I go on a campaign to seriously hurt their business.....I doubt that will happen based on how those oils are currently marketed....

 

I don't get it. If you are having some bearing wear concerns, step up to Amsoil's better stuff. 2000 series or similar.

 

I've been using their 25k/yr stuff for the last 3 changes Jeff. The rationale behind the switch is I want to be fully inside the constraints of the Nissan manual with regards to oil usage, so I'll be performing a couple of changes at 3750 miles with fully API certified oils. Amsoil's good stuff isn't API certified and neither is it worth the money to change it every 3750....but once I confirm where my problem is with respect to bearing wear, I want to be able to show Nissan Blackstone analyses depicting oil types that fit their recommendation. Then I'll switch back if this is all a fluke.

 

Phew! ...no knee jerk reaction...just waited for the word...figured it would come soon enough.

 

Question. How exactly do you think Nissan would know what oil you put in unless you told them?? You can do receipts for anything. Plus Amsoil has a section for dealing w/ oil related factory warranty refusals.

 

You're right, but here's my thought process. Worst case is that for the next 3 oil changes that I get analyzed they all show excessive bearing wear as my initial one did. I'd like to be able to go to or write to Nissan and show them the failing analysis results which do indicate the type of oil used and for them to not give me any **** at all about oil types. That's really the only rationale I have for this. I think I'll be up against it with them anyway because the car isn't acting defective so I don't want any small piece of info for them to start gnawing at to prolong things. Maybe I'm thinking about this incorrectly though so let me know your thoughts and opinions.

 

now everything is syntec-ed....should we have shorter drainer duration now for amsoil?

 

maybe and no.

 

I haven't gotten my latest issue of Action News yet, so I'll reserve some comments for now and call Tech Services first. I will say that while it MAY be the case that Amsoil got competitive with the XL-7500, I highly doubt they will drop the Group IV basestocks from their regular line. To do so would greatly weaken their marketing power and probably drive them out of business. Just looking at their lastest oil, the Series 2000 0W-30, with the increase in drain intervals from 25k to 35k, I would say that this is the direction they will be taking their top tier oils in the future. The XL-7500 has always been the bottom feeder of the line and was designed to be marketed towards the quick lube crowd whose customers will hardly care if it's a Group III or IV basestock. Like Bill said, if they did go in this direction with the XL-7500 it really shouldn't be surprising.

 

I just got of the phone with Tech Services and they confirmed that the XL-7500 has gone to a Group III basestock. In order to be competitive and meet the the SL rating, it was more cost effective to go this route and further seperate the XL-7500 from the other products.

Tech services also confirmed that the XL-7500 is the ONLY series that was affected by this change. All the other oils continue to use Group IV PAO basestocks and nothing has changed in regards to recommended uses and drain intervals regarding these oils, so everyone can breathe a little easier now.

 

Amsoil only markets a 5w20 oil in the XL-7500 series. I presume that means the 20wt is now a grooup III too, and not PAO based ???

 

It's probably true that their 5w20 is switched over also.

But please don't run 5w20 anyhow! The increased wear on the engine will eliminate any gas mileage advantages.

 

Be careful here! Amsoil has reportedly refused to back people who have the Toyota sludge problem, calling it an engine design deficiency.

 

Maybe they are right. Don't see why they would have to be responsible for someone else's problems. Especially when Lexus has extended their warranty for engine sludge related problems. I assume Toyota did the same(both use the same engine). So I assume Amsoil is in the right here.

 

I don't know if Amsoil said anything about engine design when they stated their oil guarantee. I just looked on the Amsoil website and I couldn't seem to find the guarantee wording.

If you had an engine oil related problem, you could easily get into an agrument about whether the problem was engine design or an oil related problem. I believe the incident I described, happened before Toyota took responsibility, so the car owner was left out in the cold for a while.

 

Here's a link to the warranty page:
Amsoil Warranty

That sucks about switching the XL's over... I have been setting up all my family's cars with that oil... My wife's Honda uses 5W20, but at least I have a full case - maybe by next year they will have one in the other series...

 

The entire XL-7500 has been switched. Needless to say, what I emailed you about the differences is now obsolete.

 

I never received your email that I requested. Sorry.

 

Huh, that's odd, I sent it the same day you first contacted me. I'll send the info over again right now.

 

Correction- Mobil 1 does not use Group III. It's still PAO based. The new ingredient-SuperSyn is not Group III, it is a new type of PAO. Sinceit is a heavier viscosity the pour point is higher. It is a wear enhancing additive. I know the Mobil 1 15W-50 now contains moly. The other grades may as well. I have nothing against Amsoil-in fact I used to sell the stuff. Its a fine product. But it does appear many Amsoil dealers/users are unusually ready to bash Mobil 1.

 

That's nice to hear for Mobil users; I thought I read somewhere that the Super syn formulation has a mixture of PAO and crude base stocks but that must be wrong if your info is correct. Wonder if someone can confirm it either way....

 

Highlander,

You really shouldn't be using 5W/20 anyway. 20 weight is just too significant of a viscosity difference on engines designed around 30 weight viscosity at temperature. You can see in the spreadsheet those who use 5W/20 have much lower sustained viscosity levels, which is why they tend not to hold up to long drain intervals and why Amsoil hasn't produced a 5W/20 for extended drain use......

Ford and Honda should be dope slapped for recommending/forcing an oil that their engines weren't designed to use.....

 

Now the rest of the story,little tidbit on viscosity and how and the reasons why Ford and Honda went to these oils. From an article I read :

"Thinner motor oils such as 5W-20 or even 0W-20 are becoming more popular these days and are even specified by some OEM's (FORD & HONDA) on new 2001 cars.

Although these oils are promoted as "energy conserving" they generally trade a gain of less than 0.1 MPG in Corporate Average Fuel Economy (CAFE) for shorter useful engine life.

FORD which has previously designed cars to have 10 year or 150,000 miles life has reduced the mileage life expectation to "beyond 100,000 miles" on vehicles that are operated on SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil.

HONDA only claims "useful life" as 7-years or 70,000 miles in EPA certifications for their CIVIC which uses SAE 5W-20 Motor Oil, while the previous model that utilized SAE 5W-30 Motor Oil was certified for 10 year or 100,000 mile durability.

Since both HONDA and FORD Warranty their NEW cars for ONLY 3-years or 36,000-miles the reduction in engine life expectancy is not a factor.

By contrast Mercedes-Benz recommends use of ONLY Synthetic Motor Oil that is at least SAE 5W-40! This is a recent increase in recommended viscosity from SAE 5W-30. Apparently customer research indicated that engine longevity is more important to typical MB customer than fuel economy.

Even more important is the High-Shear High-Temperature MINIMUM specification in SAE J300. In tables below you will notice that there are "two" SAE 40 specifications, one with minimum HSHT value of 2.9 cP for Automotive Oils (SAE 0W-40; 5W-40; 10W-40) and the other for Heavy Duty Oils (HDO) (SAE 15W-40; 20W-40; 25W-40; 40).

This double specification is at insistence of heavy duty engine manufacturers who have required HSHT viscosity limits consistent with good engine durability in high-load, severe service operation. HSHT value of 3.7 cP or 27% more viscous oil at 150ºC (300ºF).

Yes, a 27% increase in viscosity makes a difference between Automotive engine that lasts 100,000 miles and Truck engine that lasts 1,000,000 miles!

When you consider that most Automotive Motor Oils are ONLY 3 cP,"

 

Some major points that also factor into the equation with heavy-duty diesels going 1,000,000 is that they are designed for a much longer life than passenger cars and they also operate in an entirely different environment. It's not just the "thick" oil.

Your point is well taken on the 5W-20 and what Honda and Ford is doing.

 

The German manufactures specify a thicker oil than the Japanese or American manufacturers. I think the Germans may be correct.

Under high shear conditions, such as when you accelerate suddenly at a traffic light, you actually squeeze the oil out of the bearings. Its under these conditions that a thicker oil will provide greater protection because it takes more force to squeeze it from the bearing surfaces. If you feather the gas, or drive on the highway you won't notice any difference in bearing wear with a thicker oil. In fact you will pay a penalty in gas mileage because the thick oil will be harder to pump therefore loading the engine a bit more.

To get the best cold weather performance you can select a wide range synthetic oil like 5w-40. With wide range oils it is very important to use a synthetic oil as conventional oils require too much Viscosity additives (polymer goo/sludge producing chemicals) to acheive wide ranges.

 

I would bet 5W/40 or 10W/40 or 15W/50 would be recommended more here if we had 100+ MPH speed limits and some decent roads.....30W is fine for here in the states, unless you drive like Russ.

 

I guess I'm a 10W40 man running 10W30 then

DW

 

Not always the case. I just checked the manual again for a 1998 BMW 528i. For conventional oil, anything below 60 degrees, a 5W-30 is recommended and for everything above 60, a 15W-40 is preferred. The interesting thing is that there is another column that encompasses the whole temperature range that says for "special" oils. All three BMW dealers in the Boston area confirmed this is really synthetic oil. 5W-30 and 10W-30 are the preferred weights and new BMW's like the 325, 330, 525, 530 and 540 come from the factory with 5W-30. The M cars are the exception to the rule. For those engines, which are more oriented towards racing in terms of technology and build, the thicker oils are recommended due to the stress these motors can exert on their internal parts.

 

The BIG question is, IMO, If the US government wasn't pushing CAFE standards so hard on automakers, how strongly would 5W30 be recommended by them?
I strongly beleive that 5W30 is recommended simply b/c it will provide that extra 0.5 mpgs out of a car. To me, that's the wrong thinking, if you want feul economy, buy a smaller engine. Sheesh, that's why I have a V6 instead of a V8 or SUV that can't even break 20 mpg if it begged and tried. A friend of mine has an expedition. He spends $60/week on gas. He's starting to get really sick of it. At least he's running 5W30

DW

 

Hence the push by Ford and Honda to eek out another .1 or .2 MPG on the CAFE average by going to 5W/20. Effects probably wouldn't be seen until the powertrain warranties are expired, which is 36,000 miles by both makers......

 

Bill, and others..
The reason I have the 5W20 for the wife's Honda is because they not only recommend it, they "sort of" require it. The owner's manual specifically says to use 5W20, and nothing more... Of course, at the time I read that, and ordered the oil, I thought it was odd, but I said to myself "Hey, it's Honda, they should know what they're doing, right?".. I assumed that the reason for the 5W20 was due to some slight improvements in gas mileage, but I didn't follow through with the thoughts on engine life... I should have said to myself instead, "How the heck would they know if I used 5W20 or 5W30". Even worse, they recommend changing oil every 7500 miles - even on dino oil!!! I can get her till next year on the 5W20 I have, then go to 5W30 next year... Unless, uhhh, anyone wants to buy some 5W20, cheap...

Thanks for the input...

 

Since there are so many Amsoil people here I thought I'd ask. Is the 0-30 series 2k really that much better than the 5-30? If so, please explain. I noticed that the 5-30 has less weight loss in the Noack test. I live in VA. Can anyone sell me Amsoil cheaper than the stores with delivery. I think many local stores are selling the 5-30 for $5.75 and the 0-30 for $7.75 or $8. If it can be matched or beat, I'd rather give the business to you rather than the store.