H&R/Illumina w/ RSB
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 104
H&R/Illumina w/ RSB
I'm currently on Maxspeeds w/ Illuminas and I like the ride, but it's a little jarring at times. I just bought H&R's to see if they're any softer, more comfortable. Hopefully I can put them on this weekend. I've used the Tokicos at 2,3,4 settings and find 2 the most comfortable and 3 is for smooth roads. Higher settings make it very obvious that the car is on a higher profile tire. I still have more body roll than I'd like so I'm considering a RSB as well. I wondered if any of you have this setup. If so, how do you like it? I've heard some people say the RSB causes different things to happen. Personally, I want very little body roll and won't mind the oversteer, so the tradeoff may be worth it.
As a side note, I've been looking for a place to bend my rear axle. Toe is .25 L and .125 R. This is very noticeable when cornering. Another reason I thought the RSB would benefit me. This may also encourage body roll, right?
Thanks
As a side note, I've been looking for a place to bend my rear axle. Toe is .25 L and .125 R. This is very noticeable when cornering. Another reason I thought the RSB would benefit me. This may also encourage body roll, right?
Thanks
Toe settings have nothing to do with body roll.
As for reducing body roll, yes a RSB will do that, but....
If you had coilovers, you'd be fine with a RSB because the coilover kits for our cars create a huge understeer bias at the limit, which will offset the oversteer caused by the RSB (the reason people with coilovers don't complain about understeer is that they make the limit so high that people rarely ever reach it). You'd also be totally rid of body roll. Since you're on a spring-and-shock combo, though, you won't get this understeer bias, so the reduction in body roll will be accompanied by tricky handling at the limit.
So, yes a RSB will reduce body roll, but at the cost of safe handling in some cases. IMO, you'd be much better off with stiffer springs, which will reduce body roll without the ill effects of a RSB.
As for reducing body roll, yes a RSB will do that, but....
If you had coilovers, you'd be fine with a RSB because the coilover kits for our cars create a huge understeer bias at the limit, which will offset the oversteer caused by the RSB (the reason people with coilovers don't complain about understeer is that they make the limit so high that people rarely ever reach it). You'd also be totally rid of body roll. Since you're on a spring-and-shock combo, though, you won't get this understeer bias, so the reduction in body roll will be accompanied by tricky handling at the limit.
So, yes a RSB will reduce body roll, but at the cost of safe handling in some cases. IMO, you'd be much better off with stiffer springs, which will reduce body roll without the ill effects of a RSB.
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 104
Thanks for the info on the coilovers. I thought about coilovers at one time, but I'd rather wait and put them in a true sportscar someday. I know this car has a lot of potential and I finally found the balance I was looking for with the H&R's... (Stock was insane body roll, etc, and the Maxspeed's were too stiff.)
I got the H&R's in today and there seems to be a pretty big difference in spring rate. I've read that Maxpeeds are suppose to be a little stiffer but the difference was very noticeable to me. This is exactly what I was looking for as far as comfort. I'm not so particular about the drop height, but more concerned about the comfort/performance compromise. Just getting low seems to help quite a bit. With the H&R's, I probably have more body roll now, but I have very rough roads and don't like driving slow over them. I'd rather have softer springs and try out a RSB to see how it goes.
To give you an idea of what I meant by toe causing body roll... (You may have read the threads about bending the rear axle; my rear toe has always been L .25, R .125). Basically, my car always pulled to the right on stock springs. The shop guys always claimed it would drive "straight" except for one of them (later he proved to be correct). Camber is of course not adjustable w/o bolts/plates so I always had it aligned and the camber was close enough for them. This happened with several sets of tires. Well, after I put on my first set of springs, it began pulling to the left, which is what the one accurate mechanic told me it should do (on stock springs) with the extra toe in the Left Rear. After adding camber bolts and doing another alignment, it continued pulling to the left, which is what it's still doing today.
About the toe/body roll... In theory, since both wheels have toe in in the rear, they encourage understeer, right? So, when I go into a turn the rear wants to keep going straight rather than let the rear step out or create any kind of oversteer ...what we need to get the car to turn more easily (faster turn-in?). At least this is my theory. I've heard there are pretty dramatic differences when the rear to is straightened from .25 toe to "0". Bending the rear axle is something I've considered but I haven't looked really hard for someone to do it. Partly b/c there are many people who will do it, but may not do it right. My dilema... suggestions welcome.
Anyway, I like the H&R's. The Maxspeeds were a little too stiff. I can't imagine what Eibach's would feel like on my streets. Looking to do the RSB and possibly find someone to bend the rear axle. This may be what it takes to get my car going straight. Anyone have similar toe specs with a pull? I know the rear toe is factory set from .125 to .25, but they should at least be equal. I believe the rear camber is factory set at -1 degree which is ok.
Thanks.
I got the H&R's in today and there seems to be a pretty big difference in spring rate. I've read that Maxpeeds are suppose to be a little stiffer but the difference was very noticeable to me. This is exactly what I was looking for as far as comfort. I'm not so particular about the drop height, but more concerned about the comfort/performance compromise. Just getting low seems to help quite a bit. With the H&R's, I probably have more body roll now, but I have very rough roads and don't like driving slow over them. I'd rather have softer springs and try out a RSB to see how it goes.
To give you an idea of what I meant by toe causing body roll... (You may have read the threads about bending the rear axle; my rear toe has always been L .25, R .125). Basically, my car always pulled to the right on stock springs. The shop guys always claimed it would drive "straight" except for one of them (later he proved to be correct). Camber is of course not adjustable w/o bolts/plates so I always had it aligned and the camber was close enough for them. This happened with several sets of tires. Well, after I put on my first set of springs, it began pulling to the left, which is what the one accurate mechanic told me it should do (on stock springs) with the extra toe in the Left Rear. After adding camber bolts and doing another alignment, it continued pulling to the left, which is what it's still doing today.
About the toe/body roll... In theory, since both wheels have toe in in the rear, they encourage understeer, right? So, when I go into a turn the rear wants to keep going straight rather than let the rear step out or create any kind of oversteer ...what we need to get the car to turn more easily (faster turn-in?). At least this is my theory. I've heard there are pretty dramatic differences when the rear to is straightened from .25 toe to "0". Bending the rear axle is something I've considered but I haven't looked really hard for someone to do it. Partly b/c there are many people who will do it, but may not do it right. My dilema... suggestions welcome.
Anyway, I like the H&R's. The Maxspeeds were a little too stiff. I can't imagine what Eibach's would feel like on my streets. Looking to do the RSB and possibly find someone to bend the rear axle. This may be what it takes to get my car going straight. Anyone have similar toe specs with a pull? I know the rear toe is factory set from .125 to .25, but they should at least be equal. I believe the rear camber is factory set at -1 degree which is ok.
Thanks.
Good to hear that a) you got the springs and b)that you like 'em. I had a hell of a time setting up the Fedex account to ship them to you, not to mention the hassle I got from the cranky skank working at the drop center.
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 104
lol, thanks rocco. Fedex is pretty good here, but I always drop everything off. Hey, is there a place here to put feedback for transactions? I'll leave good feedback for you. Not sure what I'm gonna do with the Maxspeeds now... Maybe ebay?
Still not sure what you mean by your toe settings causing body roll. I think you're saying that they're causing understeer, which causes you to have to turn harder, which in turn would cause more body roll?
Understeer and oversteer don't cause or reduce body roll. They are simply by-products of how the suspension is set up. So you don't need to create oversteer to eliminate body roll.
Adding a RSB will reduce body roll and have less of an effect on ride quality than stiffer springs. It will also deliver more of a jolt when you run over a bump with just one wheel, and bumps will be far more likely to make your car skittish in the rear. If you're cool with that, then go ahead.
The beam isn't going to be the easiest thing in the world to bend. I wouldn't even recommend trying it. If you're still pulling to the left, it's most likely something else anyway. A toe difference of 0.125 degrees in the rear probably isn't gonna be noticed.
Understeer and oversteer don't cause or reduce body roll. They are simply by-products of how the suspension is set up. So you don't need to create oversteer to eliminate body roll.
Adding a RSB will reduce body roll and have less of an effect on ride quality than stiffer springs. It will also deliver more of a jolt when you run over a bump with just one wheel, and bumps will be far more likely to make your car skittish in the rear. If you're cool with that, then go ahead.
The beam isn't going to be the easiest thing in the world to bend. I wouldn't even recommend trying it. If you're still pulling to the left, it's most likely something else anyway. A toe difference of 0.125 degrees in the rear probably isn't gonna be noticed.
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 104
You got it in the first line. I realize they're not directly related, toe/roll, but I'm sure they affect each other. Probably not as much as I'd like to think, but anyway... I'll consider those things when shopping for a RSB. I guess the only way to know how much I'll like it or not is to try one; like with the springs. At least a RSB will be easier to change! - I'll keep looking for things to cause a pull. Looking at my alignment specs, the rear toe is the only thing off and I've tried different tires with this setup also. The only difference was the springs before I had the left pull. Then it was probably camber differences, but now camber is equal all around and caster is close. I'll recheck for dragging brakes or something... I will bend that beam and if I can't find anything else. I know one person who can do it and knows what they're doing, but he wants me to take the beam off.
FYI, here are the beam links:
http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/.../westend.shtml
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....=1#post4335410
Read Steve's comments (I have .25 L, .125 R):
"Let me try to put this all in laymans terms for you. First, the difference this makes on your car depends on what amount of toe you have from the start. If you have 1/4 inch (like some sentra's) then the car will be so different you will be shocked. If the car only has 1/16th then it's more subtle but still noticable. I measure every car before I do anything and then we discuss your needs before we start. However, some of what was stated above is just not really accurate as far as this procedure. The amount of mods you have on the car really does not effect this process. In fact many beam cars try to compensate for a bad alignment with a huge rear bar. This does not really solve the problem. It helps but it is only part of the equation. What matters is how much toe you have in the back. Think about it this way. When you turn right the car leans over onto its left tires. It transfers most the weight of the car to that outside tire. If the outside rear tire is pointed in then the rear of the car is going to want to just follow the front of the car around and never want to step out. When it does step out it will be more likely to snap rather then progressively slide. This is snap oversteer. A car with a bunch of rear toe will do this. Now lets look at the oppisite extreme. The rear tires are pointed out. As the weight shifts that tire is naturally going to want to steer towards the outside. It is going to want to oversteer. The more weight you put on that tire the more it is going to want to oversteer. The key for a street car is to have the rear tires pointed straight ahead. This gives the most natural feel behind the wheel. It is neither snappy or too eager. It just feels right."
FYI, here are the beam links:
http://www.nissanperformancemag.com/.../westend.shtml
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread....=1#post4335410
Read Steve's comments (I have .25 L, .125 R):
"Let me try to put this all in laymans terms for you. First, the difference this makes on your car depends on what amount of toe you have from the start. If you have 1/4 inch (like some sentra's) then the car will be so different you will be shocked. If the car only has 1/16th then it's more subtle but still noticable. I measure every car before I do anything and then we discuss your needs before we start. However, some of what was stated above is just not really accurate as far as this procedure. The amount of mods you have on the car really does not effect this process. In fact many beam cars try to compensate for a bad alignment with a huge rear bar. This does not really solve the problem. It helps but it is only part of the equation. What matters is how much toe you have in the back. Think about it this way. When you turn right the car leans over onto its left tires. It transfers most the weight of the car to that outside tire. If the outside rear tire is pointed in then the rear of the car is going to want to just follow the front of the car around and never want to step out. When it does step out it will be more likely to snap rather then progressively slide. This is snap oversteer. A car with a bunch of rear toe will do this. Now lets look at the oppisite extreme. The rear tires are pointed out. As the weight shifts that tire is naturally going to want to steer towards the outside. It is going to want to oversteer. The more weight you put on that tire the more it is going to want to oversteer. The key for a street car is to have the rear tires pointed straight ahead. This gives the most natural feel behind the wheel. It is neither snappy or too eager. It just feels right."
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 104
About toe/body roll and for handling T-Shooting in general:
http://www.wtrscca.org/tech.htm
Notice in the tire section...
"Inside edges too hot - Too much body roll:
Too much negative camber or too much toe-out."
"Outside edges too hot - Too much body roll:
Too little negative camber, too little toe-out or too much toe-in or wheel width too narrow for tire width."
There is a relationship between them. It's not as obvious as a camber change, but it's there. Your statement that "Toe settings have nothing to do with body roll" is simply not true.
http://www.wtrscca.org/tech.htm
Notice in the tire section...
"Inside edges too hot - Too much body roll:
Too much negative camber or too much toe-out."
"Outside edges too hot - Too much body roll:
Too little negative camber, too little toe-out or too much toe-in or wheel width too narrow for tire width."
There is a relationship between them. It's not as obvious as a camber change, but it's there. Your statement that "Toe settings have nothing to do with body roll" is simply not true.
Fair enough. Now that I think about it, I can see how toe settings would indirectly affect body roll. But the effect isn't nearly as important as you might be thinking.
Since that article is a hard-and-fast set of guidelines, and not an exhaustive discussion of vehicle dynamics, let me break it down for you.
Yes, camber can affect body roll by reducing the amount of contact patch over which cornering loads are spread. That counts for both the front and rear.
In the front, having bad toe settings can worsen the effect because the car will be encouraged either to roll toward the outside of the turn due to the extra lateral pull of the inside tire (too much toe-out), or to roll outward and forward due to resistance of the inside tire (too much toe-in).
But, in your case, the rear wheels are almost immune to that effect: they don't turn as you steer, and the rear end is much lighter than the front end.
Besides, the only way any of this would even matter is if you're cornering hard enough for your tires deform and squish enough to cause noticeable body roll. That WTRSCCA.org article was written in the context of racing, so clearly they're talking about very, very big cornering loads.
On the other hand, it sounds like your car is a daily commuter and not an autocross or road race machine, so I would be surprised if you ever saw cornering forces that strong. Either way, your suspension will lean a LOT before your tires even begin to load up enough to start squishing noticeably. That's why, if you want to reduce body roll, suspension is far more important at this stage than alignment settings.
Since that article is a hard-and-fast set of guidelines, and not an exhaustive discussion of vehicle dynamics, let me break it down for you.
Yes, camber can affect body roll by reducing the amount of contact patch over which cornering loads are spread. That counts for both the front and rear.
In the front, having bad toe settings can worsen the effect because the car will be encouraged either to roll toward the outside of the turn due to the extra lateral pull of the inside tire (too much toe-out), or to roll outward and forward due to resistance of the inside tire (too much toe-in).
But, in your case, the rear wheels are almost immune to that effect: they don't turn as you steer, and the rear end is much lighter than the front end.
Besides, the only way any of this would even matter is if you're cornering hard enough for your tires deform and squish enough to cause noticeable body roll. That WTRSCCA.org article was written in the context of racing, so clearly they're talking about very, very big cornering loads.
On the other hand, it sounds like your car is a daily commuter and not an autocross or road race machine, so I would be surprised if you ever saw cornering forces that strong. Either way, your suspension will lean a LOT before your tires even begin to load up enough to start squishing noticeably. That's why, if you want to reduce body roll, suspension is far more important at this stage than alignment settings.
I have the H&R/Illumina and RSB combination. I like it a lot. I have the rear set at 2 and the front on 4. The reason is that when I put the rears any higher I tend to get a lot of oversteer. My car handles very neutral at its current settings. The ride is also very comfortable. The springs are a little too soft when I have people in the back though because it tends to hit the bumpstops easily. Overall I love my setup. It actually feels more comfortable than stock with better handling.
Thread Starter
Senior Member
Joined: Jul 2003
Posts: 104
That's what I was looking for, Caracicatriz. Thanks.
D00dF00d, thanks again for the input. I think my tires have a little to do w/ it since they're balloons, 215/55/16's. I agree that the rear toe probably wouldn't affect roll much now that I've experienced it (below). The good thing is I got the springs in and now the pull has gone, which is what bothered me the most. If roll continues to bother me I'll try a RSB. I've read, re-read more on them and many people don't like the setup, so it looks more like a compormise than a solution to roll. With these softer springs, maybe the discomfort, unpredicatibility would be less noticeable. I have noticed that the front toe affects roll more as you said b/c I haven't done an alignment yet since I put the struts on and the camber is very negative (at least 3 degrees) and the toe is off. I've played with the toe a little (1/2 turns on a tie rod) and the effects are pronounced. So toe/roll applies more to the front as you said. Thanks for the ideas and input. I'm gonna go with this setup for a while and get it aligned soon. I have two cars to worry about and this one is more dialed in than the other now. My accord is an old pos, but it's more fun to work on b/c of that. The paint is horrible but it still rides great and is fun to drive. Wish my maxima had a 5 speed! Cheers
D00dF00d, thanks again for the input. I think my tires have a little to do w/ it since they're balloons, 215/55/16's. I agree that the rear toe probably wouldn't affect roll much now that I've experienced it (below). The good thing is I got the springs in and now the pull has gone, which is what bothered me the most. If roll continues to bother me I'll try a RSB. I've read, re-read more on them and many people don't like the setup, so it looks more like a compormise than a solution to roll. With these softer springs, maybe the discomfort, unpredicatibility would be less noticeable. I have noticed that the front toe affects roll more as you said b/c I haven't done an alignment yet since I put the struts on and the camber is very negative (at least 3 degrees) and the toe is off. I've played with the toe a little (1/2 turns on a tie rod) and the effects are pronounced. So toe/roll applies more to the front as you said. Thanks for the ideas and input. I'm gonna go with this setup for a while and get it aligned soon. I have two cars to worry about and this one is more dialed in than the other now. My accord is an old pos, but it's more fun to work on b/c of that. The paint is horrible but it still rides great and is fun to drive. Wish my maxima had a 5 speed! Cheers
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
thatcollegestudent
5th Generation Maxima (2000-2003)
18
Oct 5, 2015 02:29 PM
Cumalot
4th Generation Maxima (1995-1999)
3
Dec 16, 2000 11:55 AM