I finally completed my overhaul of a very nice 92 SE 5 Spd. The car was running very well before the teardown, however the VTCs were driving me crazy. I purchased (what we believe to be) the last remaining complete VTC assemblies. I installed them, along with all new timing chains/tensioners, head gaskets, exh manifold gaskets, got many engine parts powder coated, along with both new axles, a new rack, new control arms, Tokico blues all around, new OEM clutch/flwheel, and other new parts.

So I finally did the initial startup, with a connected laptop running the Nissan datascan software. I was overly cautious with the timing chains etc. I primed the oil filter, then turned off the fuel pump to get some oil up into the VTCs. NO clattering, just good strong cranking. I then activated the fuel pump, and the car started right up. It didn't sound great, but not bad. Some sputtering but it ran for a minute. It then stalled, and was restarted a few times, running about 3 minutes. Towards the end I had to keep my foot on the gas. It finally stalled, and since then is a crank, no start.

I know the procedure for crank no start, and I'll start them tomorrow. but is there anything obvious I'm missing here? Can i confirm, since its a crank/no start, that i aligned the chains properly and didn't grenade the motor?

2 new injectors were installed (not reman). The battery is at 12.25 volts at rest, and was at 14.25 while running. I threw the cam/crank angle sensor on quickly, not aligned as it was before. I figured I'd get it running and adjust later. I since lined it up properly and still nothing. Car has a quarter tank of gas, and is on a hill, but fuel spills out of the outlet when cranking. Did not get a pressure reading yet. Coils and plugs are new OEM. Was very careful plugging in all harnesses. The gas is at about a 1/4 tank and is at about 5 months old.

Finally, per the FSM, I pulled the cam/crank angle sensor, turned key on, and rotated the shaft. i heard injectors clicking all over, and the RH injector harness does not seem to be kinked. Have not actually verified spark yet, but again it ran a few minutes.

My theory: i had the intake manifold powder coated, and i am running a ground kit like Blehm used to sell. Do you think the powder coating needs to be scraped away, to create stronger grounds?


This is baffling. I'll report back tomorrow with fuel pressure readings and verified spark. Am I missing something obvious ? Very frustrated

 

Hmmm. It's curious that it started and ran initially and now won't at all.

Out of curiosity, after getting the chains back on did you rotate the engine over multiple times by hand (prior to re-installing the covers) and make sure everything consistently re-aligns/proper chain roller counts over multiple revolutions? If so, there's almost no chance you have the timing screwed up and probably have no internal engine troubles.

I've found that the CPS will let the car start/run fine unless you're maxed out all the way to one side or the other. Generally it'll start/run fine pretty much anywhere in that middle range.

Yes you want to get good clean contacts on the ground points of intake manifold - BUT I don't think that is the issue if it started and ran initially.

My initial thought assuming no mechanical internal problem would be the car being on an angle and low gas - basically due to the gas leveling itself it's putting the gas out of the fuel sock range. But that's dependent on how steep the hill is and you also state you get fuel out of the outlet so it's probably not a fuel supply issue.

Unfortunately you also can't necessarily completely rule out the timing being off a tooth or two. The rough running would be a symptom of the timing being off and also crank but no start is also a symptom of the timing being off. But strange it would run initially (albeit poorly) and then not at all.

Do you have spare coil packs and CPS to swap back on?

Also a vacuum leak would be a big candidate here.

 

James, thanks for responding, I knew you'd have some input.Here is a picture of the car, and the angle of the hill, if you can tell. I'm going to get 5 gallons of fresh gas now.

Yes, after installing chains, I spun the engine, by hand, many times and checked them repeatedly. Maybe I made a mistake? I doubt it though, because I was so worried about it, I checked everything at least ten times, and for 10-20 revolutions. Attached are a few pics of the lower chains, can't seem to find pictures of the top chains right now.

My coil packs are brand new, OEM, as of 14 months ago. However I have lots of working spares, so I can quickly swap them. I also have a running automatic VE, I'll grab that today so I can swap parts from a known running car.

It does sound like the timing is way off, I just don't see how. I'll also check over my vacuum.

Here's something I just discovered: my TACH does not move, at all, while cranking. Does it normally blip during the startup process? I'll have to check my other car. This could point me towards a blown fuse etc.

 

That hill certainly doesn't look steep enough to cause any gas issues. I think that pretty much rules that out. I thought you perhaps meant it was as steep as being jacked up on jackstands type of thing.

I don't remember if the tachometer is supposed to blip during cranking. I seem to remember Tony had that exact issue - crank, no start and the tach wasn't working - and it turned out to be his CPS was bad. Of course then he had leaky injector and IACV issues but IIRC his actual no-start was the CPS.

 

is there a chance the sensors got damaged when they were not installed "perfectly" and after so many spins/revolutions the sensors went?

also is it possible something wasn't tightened correctly where it will run but after a few minutes the vibration/movement would loosen it up and perhaps jump timing?

 

Thanks again for all the ideas. I just switched crank/cam sensors from my running VE auto. The auto started right up, mine is still crank no start. FYI, on my auto, the tach does not blip while cranking. I also did a good visual on all the vacuum.

So I guess now I have to start the whole diagnostic procedure. However,if I were to have screwed up the timing chains by one tooth let's say, will i have any way to diagnose that?

 

Have fuses been checked or ruled out? Very low on gas plus gas thats been sitting for 5 months or more could the fuel pump be a possibility? Was fuel stabilizer ran through before it sat? Could those maybe a few possibilities if the car started and ran but wont now? Also if im not mistaken i think Tony went through a few cps sensors for some reason before he got his started.

 

Tony to the rescue lol. Been there done that.

IACV
If your car started and stayed on for longer then 10-15 minutes then your vacuum is good enough to drive. If it stays on but turns off before the 10 minutes your iacv has a vacuum leak.why 10 minutes? Because iacv turns off after engine is warm up.

CPS

1.switch it out for another working cps.
2.if you on a budget you can use the infinite j30 CPS SENSOR ONLY. (Make sure you use the VE disk not the j30).

TIMING

If timing was off a tooth or 2 then your are could still start but run like ****. When my timing went bad i remove both cps bolts and spin the cps 180° degrees and car started but ran like kaka. That just told me that my timing skip a bunch of tooths.

If you follow the FSM towards the end everything should line up.
1.Check fuel pressure
2.check spark
3.check if your oil is full of gas. Please dont hydrolock engine.
4. Check plugs.
5. Clean off powder coat for ground.


Doesnt new VTC sound great. Im loving mines thanks to jeff.

Your cps is good.
If no spark on all coils then either your PTU is bad or not getting signal from ecu.
2. Double check all ground are clean and connected.

If you could a video it and post

 

Thanks again for all the input.

The car sat about a year, with no stabilizer in the tank. However I added about 7 gallons of fresh premium fuel.

I swapped CPS units with a running car: still crank no start, and the other car still runs. The plugs are brand new, smell slightly of gas but look nearly perfect. There does not seem to be oil in the gas, the dipstick just shows clean oil with no gas smell.

So I started following all the procedures in the FSM for crank/no start. The fuel pressure seems perfect; about 43 PSI when I turn the ignition on, then about 36 PSI while cranking.After turning the ignition off, it holds steady at about 35 PSI.

Next I tested spark on one coil, per cylinder bank. I attached a video of it, you can see the spark and hear the car cranking. Its a spark tester, basically a spark plug with a built in grounding clamp. Again, because my coils are nearly new I only tested one coil on each side. Good spark.

The FSM now points me to the ECU / ECM / whatever its called. Finding a 5 speed, VE one from a known running source seems impossible, so I ordered a reman overnight shipping. I've only ever had 1 ECU fail on me, on an '83 Porsche 944. I chased that problem for about a month before swapping computers, and it started right up. But I guess every part has a shelf life.

My questions are; does this effectively isolate the ECU? What about he PTU? I guess I can simply swap that over with my running car. Also, I checked all fuses and all relays were bench tested. The grounds, although I didn't scrape the powder coating yet, all tested ok with my DVOM. .....And, if my chains did skip a tooth or two, AND the ECU is is good, will simply turning the CPS at least get the car to run?

 

Ok,new reman ECU is in, still good crank but no start. I checked the ECU part numbers, they match. It is NOT mounted; does this part get ground through the mount?

Also; I just swapped PTU with a running car, running car still runs & mine don't. Not sure where else to look? I checked all grounds with the meter, they are good.

I'm starting diagnostic procedure #22, which is the ECU circuit...

Everything checks out for the ECU circuit. Should I be putting noid lights on the injectors? Or, installing my fuel gauge on the return line to rule out an obstruction?

Finally,I can't rule out timing skipping a tooth. Tony, should I spin the CPS while a helper is cranking?

 

Yea.

Take both bolts off and turn the cps little by little until you can hear it want to start. If it starts dont let it run long, shut off right away.

As for your injectors, jeff had only 3 coils working and his car turn on. So if only 3 was working then your car should turn on at least.

Check spark plugs if fouled. Check if there wet of gas

 

Man I wish I would have seen/known you were overnighting a new ECU. Any chance you can return it?

You could have just tried your VE auto ECU. Keep in mind tons of guys over the years have converted to 5 speed and just kept their auto ECU.

And no your ECU does not need to be mounted to ground out or anything like that. I've just had mine sitting in the passenger floorboard for years now in my blue VE.

Like Tony said, just remove your CPS bolts which will allow you to adjust the CPS 360 degrees. That's what I suggested to Tony a few months ago when he was having issues. Move it a little then re-crank, if it ever cranks up or if you're at least getting closer to it starting up - and especially if it only does so beyond the bolt-restricted range of motion then your timing is probably off/jumped/etc.

And these cars will also run on 3 cylinders. You can totally unplug the rear bank of injectors and the car will start up, run, and even drive (albeit pretty poorly). I once drove 20 highway miles with the entire rear injector bank unplugged because I was storing it at my brother's and forgot I'd unplugged the rear bank. I had to move it back home and was very perplexed the whole way as to why it was running so poorly

 

Ok so it looks like the timing chains must have skipped, I'll report back when I adjust the cps. I did lots of searching on the forum regarding the auto ECU in the five spd. I thought I read a post stating you had to modify wiring, but I should have checked it myself. It's returnable but I don't mind having a spare.

And yes,I initially got myself in this mess by running on 3 cylinders, and washing the engine in gas led to the death of my VTCs.

 

Well you have to modify wiring yes but that is not on the ECU side at all. When you convert from auto to 5 speed, you have to wire up the clutch pedal switch to the brake pedal wiring in order for the clutch pedal switch to operate like an OEM 5 speed. You've also got to do some wiring on the cruise control.

It's been years since I did my auto to manual conversion but IIRC that's all the wiring there was. I used a 5 speed intake manifold and also used an actual 5 speed engine wiring harness and ECU though because I wanted my power valve to be operational.

But anyway, I'm pretty sure the auto ECU in the manual would let the manual run just fine at least for temp testing purposes. I'm not sure anybody has ever tried though. IIRC all the actual automatic-specific stuff is separate with that little automatic brain module behind the glove box.

 

clutch pedal - if you're pretty good about checking the shifter position before cranking then just leave it out...basically the car thinks your foot is on the clutch regardless if it's on or not.

cruise control - c'mon...people actually use that?! LOL

5spd ECU = NG for auto ok for 5spd
auto ECU = OK for auto and 5spd

i believe the TPS is also different between 5spd and auto.

 

I completed a compression test yesterday. Cylinders 1,3,5 have about 40 psi. Cylinder 2 has about 60 psi, and cylinders 4 & 6 have about 120 psi. Is it safe to assume at this point that the timing chain skipped?

I had the car towed to an experienced engine mechanic. He thinks that valves on both heads were bent, and that my error was failing to "look through the window on the timing cover" while manually rotating the engine by hand. I don't remember any window on any of the timing covers.

Do I have bent valves? Also, I have a running VE parts car. Can I simply give him the heads from the parts car, and save about $850.00 on the repair bill?

 

ughh...that sucks man. at this point assume the worse. if you have spare parts might be a good idea to give it to the shop and let them figure it out. swapping the heads is cheaper than rebuilding the heads at this point. if you can swing it...look for a JDM or lower mileage replacement motor and see what works out cheaper.

i know this is too late but in the future...after any of the timing components are touched always spin the crank by hand one full cycle (not one revolution) and make sure it spins ok. this is of course when you have the timing component on along with the tensioner/idlers. if it's not spinning without massive force or it feels like something it blocking you from turning it then you messed up the timing somewhere.

good luck

 

Dang.

I thought you said you did rotate the engine multiple times after getting the chain(s) back together - prior to cover installs! - and that everything continually lined back up?

When I say lined back up, I mean even down to the cam lobe positions and number of rollers between each sprocket, etc.? In that case, there is no way for the timing to be off and to bend valves, barring an actual timing chain or tensioner failure.

There are no "windows" on our timing covers. Your mechanic is probably thinking of old school engines many of which do have such "windows". The only way to do that on the VE is to check it all before installing the covers.

 

Yes, I rotated everything by hand many times, maybe I just overlooked something or wasn't observant of the cam position, etc. I mainly focused on the marks, in relation to the silver link on the chain.

Whatever the case, it looks like I wasted the heads. I can't get a JDM right now, but I think my lower end is in very good shape. My parts car is rough, with 175K on it, but it runs well. Do the heads "wear out" as they age, or are they just as good as rebuilt heads? I can easily pull these heads and give them to the machine shop. I already invested in the parts car, I'd like to use some parts if i can..

 

head wear is more on valve seals/seats and springs.

if you spun everything by hand and it was ok....any chance that the timing is just off enough that it's not closing the valves to give you a good compression number?...James what do you think?

 

I think if it were me, and there were for sure bent valves and the parts car is that rough, I would prefer to just fix those with stuff from the parts car (valves) rather than swapping on some rough heads. I mean, you did all this other work so far on the engine to freshen it up - you really want to sully it with some rough heads? Of course, I couldn't blame you for doing the quicker thing and swapping the heads entirely.

*edit* or just have your machine shop rebuild your heads and leave your parts car intact. I had mine rebuilt last year and it was only $485 for both heads (replaced all valve stem seals, did a valve job on it, pressure tested all the springs - they were all in spec, and decked the heads). I assume if you provided the valves you could save some money

First of all you need to verify there is actual damage though. I suppose it's possible that if the timing could just be "off" enough to not start and to also affect the compression numbers like Dan said. Although the fact that it initially started and ran (rough) and won't run at all now is not a good sign combined with those compression numbers.

I mentioned it in one of Tony's threads which I assume you've read, but there is a specific TSB from Nissan about cam lobe orientation with the VE when setting the timing.

http://maxima.theowensfamily.com/tsb/NTB93-126.pdf

 

ahhh i forgot about the fact that it started and then it stopped.

 

Very important to position the cams to 10 o'clock and 12 o'clock. Did you do this?