505max94se

iTrader: (15)

I just picked up some NX 150-shot jets and I want to use them, but I told myself that I'd only use them with race fuel. I was wondering if I might be able to quickly(3rd gear pull) spray a 150-shot with pump gas, if I raised the fuel pressure and set the timing very conservatively. I'm just anxious to see what it feels like...

FYI, I have a wideband, afpr, bottle heater, dynotune nitrous controller, walbro 255hp, side gapped 2-step colder plugs, breathing mods, and the engine runs PERFECT...

I really think that I might be able to get away with a quick burst without losing the motor. What do you guys think?

Jime

iTrader: (10)

I ran a 200 shot with 22 deg timing on pump gas. No plans for race gas in the future either, don't believe its necessary or will give any further gains.

505max94se

iTrader: (15)

That was a VQ35 right? 22 degrees initial or total? standard nx jetting and fuel pressure?

I'm using a VE30 w/ NA Z32 pistons.

You know what Harrold (grey99max) is going to tell me, right? lol

Thanks Jime

Jime

iTrader: (10)

VQ35, 22 deg total, standard NX jetting and fuel pressure.

Its just info, do with it what you like. I can only give you my experience.

505max94se

iTrader: (15)

Oh, I know it's just info. Thanks though.

What did your plugs look like?

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

Yes, Jime, I still use race fuel for insurance - VP Racing 109 is the best unleaded insurance policy I can buy. 45 psi fuel pressure. But I use the stock ECU timing and have ventured into spraying a 2-stage 175-shot combined spray. ( the plugs looked great after, too)

I made my first pass at a drag strip on May 3 spraying a 175-shot, and promptly broke the 2001 VLSD tranny I just put in. The first run was a 75-shot for a 12.8 ET on a fresh track surface. and the 2nd run ate the tranny. Probably because it came from San Fransisco..

Oh, well, "if you ain't breakin' sumthin', you ain't racin', boy". But oh boy did the LandShark leap through first gear - then SAFE mode for me and rolling off the track.

Jime

iTrader: (10)

Plugs looked great, 2 steps colder irdiums.

505max94se

iTrader: (15)

WOW! You must be making some serious power! How long before your new motor is built (estimate)?

505max94se

iTrader: (15)

I long time ago, I talked with a 3rd gen guy named subs1000w. He had a bolt-on VE-5 and claimed that he sprayed it alot with the folowing jets: .065 nitrous jet / .040 fuel jet, 20 degrees advance initial timing, and pump gas. After a while the motor gave out due to a main bearing problem. I'm not quite sure if I believe him but it sure makes me wonder.

505max94se

iTrader: (15)

Let me try to further understand your timing advance.

Initial plus extra advance equals the total advance. For example, if you set your initial timing advance to 15 degrees, your ecu would only have to advance the timing 7 degrees more to create a total advance of 22 degrees. Right?

The reason I want to make sure is because that seems awfully low for total advance and awfully high for initial advance. Maybe you're referring to the ecu's extra advance value??

Fyi, the total advance on a stock VE30 is 37 degrees, the initial is ~15 degrees, and the ecu's extra advance is 22 degrees at 6krpm and max load. I'm pretty sure a stock VQ has similar values...

Not that I'd necessarily want to run 22 degrees total advance, but if I did, I would have to run 0 degrees initial advance. The engine probably wouldn't even run...

505max94se

iTrader: (15)

IIRC, The general rule of thumb is to retard 1 degree per 25 hp of added nitrous.

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

It's making right at 405 WHP - and I was hoping to raise the second stage to 125-shot and then to 150-shot for that event "Import Face-Off" but it broke. Engine sounds the same, but it's still on the trailer - Reverse is gone, and selecting Neutral makes the car pull forward. Not a good sign.

The new motor? I'll pick up the heads this week. Got the M6x55mm pins for the timing gears, you know, it's about time to put it together. I am waiting for a set of insulating intake gaskets that I can trim to match the ported Cosworth heads, but that will be later anyway.

Jime

iTrader: (10)

The UTEC fires the coils directly without any intervention by the ECU. So my total advance is 22 deg while spraying from launch to the stripe, 26 while N/A. I have run into the low 30's with no appreciable increase in performance with the 3.5 and up to 40 on the 3.0. These numbers are of course WOT only, part throttle timing numbers are meaningless at the track.

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

Depending on which chart you look at, those jets are around 150-to-175-shot. The NX jetting produces one WHP per "shot" as I found out over three nitrous pulls on a dyno, using heavier jets each time. Good stuff. My NX chart in my billfold says that a 62-33 set of jets is a 150-shot, and I am jetted at 41-24 and 52-31 on the two stages.

You're on your own with the pump gas.

t6378tp

iTrader: (69)

at 8.00 per gallon why would you risk blowing your engine

to answer your question yes you can run 93 and I have even sprayed a 100shot on 93 but why risk it less your just looking for a reason to do a swap

505max94se

iTrader: (15)

Ok, but you still have to factor in the initial advance from the cas or cps or what ever the sensor is called on the VQ that determines ignition timing. What are the values on the utec for idle? 0? 15?

I know the values we are referring to are wot.

I'm almost positive that the 22 degrees advance, that you're referring to, is your added advance made by the utec which is a value that does not include you initial advance.

One way to determine the total advance is by using a logging device like grey99max uses, iirc.

Sorry to be a pita. I'm just trying to make sure that I understand you correctly.

505max94se

iTrader: (15)

I calculated his to be a rich 165-170 shot. I'm using nx 62-33.

From the way that he talked, I believe him, I think...

Wish me luck!

505max94se

iTrader: (15)

true...

mtrai760

iTrader: (19)

Not to take away from any of our vendors here, but www.enjukuracing.com has insulating LIM gaskets for $10 on clearance right now. They hit you with $12 in shipping, but still, $23 isn't bad. It's just the 2 LIM gaskets. Just an FYI.

Jime

iTrader: (10)

Ok let me clarify. I am quoting total advance as measured and confirmed with my UTEC, Proscan OBDII reader and timing gun. The UTEC does not add advance it directly fires the coils at the set advance setting.

Factory specs are for 15 deg at idle and 25-45 at 2k RPM, mine measures 15 at idle and approx 40 at 2k.

So when I say it is running 26 degs its 26 deg total advance.

As far as race gas is concerned, I have used Mark 5 by Pro Racing Fuels for years, it is 114 unleaded. But it is a waste of money to use race fuel if its not required for your application. If you have total control over your timing (UTEC) and a proven knock detection and control system that has an adjustable knock threshold sensitivity for every 1000 RPM that will reduce your timing when it detects knock, then you have all the insurance you need.

Knowing what you are doing and why is more important than doing it just because you feel safer. If you think that using race gas will stop your engine from blowing or just because everyone says you should then you shouldn't even be using nitrous, it is just one small aspect of the overall tuning process.

PS Another tidbit for those using race gas is that it does change your a/f ratio. For instance stoich for 94 octane Sunoco is 14.7 but for VP 109 its 13.41.

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

Wow - that's lots less than the $39.00 shipped that I spent on eBay for the same gaskets. I bookmarked the web site - thanks..

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

Just for the discussion, for anyone not using a UTEC and an additional knock-retarding box, they should use race fuel for safety's sake when running their car at WOT with lots of nitrous?

Using VP's Motorsport 109, I set my WOT A/F to 12:1 across the board. I let the OEM ECU handle the stoich settings which shows as 14.6 in closed-loop. Seems to work OK... Of course I tune A/F with tape on the MAF...

Did you follow Jclaw's rant about mounting the knock sensor in a place when it can't read any engine knock? Is he right, or do we all need a knock-retarding box instead?

Just for the discussion...

505max94se

iTrader: (15)

Thanks for clearing that up.

I understand that and that is why I read a lot and ask questions, so that I know what I'm doing. I'm not the type to just do what everybody says is ok without fully understanding why. I know that race gas won't keep my engine from blowing. I just wanted to know if there was anybody out there that had run a big shot of nitrous with pump gas without blowing the engine. Before I started this thread, I was thinking that it was totally possible to run pump gas, as long as the engine was tuned correctly. I just wanted some confirmation.

505max94se

iTrader: (15)

I totally agree...

Jime

iTrader: (10)

Now I am confused? If you believe that why make the post in the first place? Did you have your mind made up before you asked the question?

Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is already made up.

My main reason for using race gas in the past was because I had no way of retarding timing. Now there are a few options of doing that so I don't believe race gas is necessary regardless of the shot. My 10.85 run was on pump gas.

The UTEC not only allows you standalone timing and fuel but also knock sensing and retarding all in one box. I got mine for $500 on the 350Z forum and is the single best addon possible for any car for the price. Emanage Ultimates don't even compare.

So no I don't believe race gas is necessary for any shot and if you don't know what you are doing race gas will just give you a false sense of protection.

Reducing timing is a better method of controlling knock than race gas.

505max94se

iTrader: (15)

There's definitely some confusion here.. What I meant is, I agree that if you don't have a way to control timing, you should at least be using race gas. I can adjust my initial timing. It's crude, but it should work. I know that using race fuel doesn't mean that you don't have to worry about anything anymore.

I started this thread because I wanted to know if I could use pump gas if I retarded my timing.
I'm not trying to change your mind or anbody else's for that matter. I'm mearly looking for input and I really appreciate the input that you've given me.
I wish that they made a utec for the VE, but they don't... I've been looking into getting a nistune. Should be interesting.

t6378tp

iTrader: (69)

Hey you can always buy a j&s controller

t6378tp

iTrader: (69)

you can always play with different resistor values in place of a k/s to pull the desired amount of timing

I think 114 is overkill but when I run a 150shot I am going to ran stock timing on 104 unleaded and when I spray a 200shot I'll wire a relay in series with the k/s connected to a resistor to pull 2-3 degree's when I trigger the 2nd stage

if I do not have a j&s or e-blue to control timing

Jime

iTrader: (10)

Don't think you will find that you can play with values and get different timings. In my experiments it was all or nothing. Let us know.

When I used 114 it was in a 1 gal fuel cell that just fed the nitrous system not the engine. Separate pump, fpr etc. In that way you can control fuel pressure separate from the engine etc so small changes can be made to the nitrous setup without affecting the actual engine a/f.

If you reread Jclaws post you will see that I was the one that told him about this. (pat on back) The one race where we met I unplugged the ks to show him how much of a difference it made in the 1/4 times, he was really suprised. I still use the ks setup in the fender well to race so timing won't be pulled no matter what. I do plug back in the stock setup for tuning. Not something I would recommend to others but it does suit my purposes and I have been doing this for over 4 years now.

t6378tp

iTrader: (69)

well I have not try'd yet but a fellow org member has a scan tool that can display timing real time so hopefully I'll have some proof soon

I plan to run a stand alone fuel system in my truck and will run race fuel only in the nitrous tank and 91/93 in the main tank but the maxima has a standard fuel setup and my DD so it's 104 for peace of mind

I remember you talking about the k/s mod some time ago and think this is a great mod for the track but I personally would not dd my car like this.

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

For what it's worth, I pulled the front bank plugs from my car last night, after spraying on them last Sunday with a combined 175-shot. They looked great - shell rim was kinda sooty, shortened ground strap showed only discoloration at the tip, insulator was a very light brown, and they were identical in appearance! The motor made enough power to rupture the transmission in the first real test of the new fuel and nitrous systems. I'm going to get the car off the trailer this week, and see what's left of that tranny. Been busy with work and family matters since Sunday.

Jime

iTrader: (10)

Its much more risky doing it at the track, the rest of the time its connected to the stock location. I figure that if I don't have it tuned properly for the race I shouldn't be there. But the last thing I want is timing being pulled while in competition. Thats why I have the UTEC, total control over timing and a/f with no stock ECU intervention. It took a long time for this to become availale for the Maxima and is the best mod ever. My dd hardly ever hits WOT so it wouldn't matter if it was connected to the fenderwell ks, I save that for the track.

505max94se

iTrader: (15)

Very nice! What changed since your recent problems with the front bank running lean? Didn't you change you're fuel setup from a semi return less to a return, so that fuel flows through the rails?

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

What did I change ?? everything... installed another new Walbro 255lph HP pump, a humongo Aeromotive 1300HP filter, built a larger three-outlet nitrous-fuel distribution manifold with brass 1/8" NTP parts, included two outputs for the fuel rail, connected the Aeromotive regulator at the far end of the manifold as a return-type system, and rebuilt the 2002/03 fuel rail to have a feed hose at the end of each rail. Now I get consistent fuel flow and pressure to all parts using fuel, and my spark plugs look wonderful.

EDIT: I also rewired the tank pump with a direct 12-volt buss from the battery, and a 13.5 volt regulated power supply to keep things going when the battery goes dim....

505max94se

iTrader: (15)

That's awesome! No more fuel delivery problems for you.

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

Not yet - but the Cosworth-based build will require another fuel pump to keep up, so two Walbros in the tank and a larger stainless supply line are next. Also a regulated 13.5 volt power supply for each pump will be installed. Gotta keep the race fuel moving, right?

t6378tp

iTrader: (69)

why not run a standalone fuel system for the nitrous

505max94se

iTrader: (15)

That's what I've been trying to tell him, but lets not go there....

grey99max

iTrader: (12)

I've already got one - the standard fuel tank.... If I cruise, it's with 109 in the tank. If I need to drive w/91 octane, I'll throw some in there. If I want to go race, I pump out the tank with the pump(s) and put 109 back in. I have a bypass switch on a cord so I can do that - and it doesn't take long to empty the tank, either...

Having a trailer really changes how you drive your car to a track 100 miles away.

505max94se

iTrader: (15)

I just ran my 75 shot to make sure everything was running ok and it ran great. Tomorrow I'll try the 150.