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Nitrous Discuss dry, wet, and direct port nitrous setups. How many shots can you handle?

Something I'm thinking about doing...

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Old 05-22-2010, 09:01 PM   #1
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Something I'm thinking about doing...

My engine is assembled, but I have to replace about $800 of stuff for my trailer, after someone stole the 8,000lb winch, the large tractor battery and box, the solar charger, and all my ratchet hold down straps. And no, nothing is covered by insurance....

I've mounted two NX Shark nozzles in a spare elbow. I think these would work fine with the SSIM manifold - hopefully with better N2O distribution.








I've also been working out the details of a dual stage direct port system, using nitrous and methanol. Two sets of NX Piranha nozzles, each set with a nitrous and fuel distribution manifold and solenoids, and both built as separate lift-off modules so changing jets is relatively easy. The methanol supply will be a 3 gal fuel cell with its own Walbro 255lph HP pump and Aeromotive FPR - stuff I already have... A good 37-degree tubing flare tool is harder to find than I expected - but eBay has good choices.

It looks like the SSIM will take some machine work to fit two nozzles per runner. Those extra bosses will have to go......




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Old 05-23-2010, 01:08 AM   #2
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looks good. how much do you plan to spray?
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Old 05-23-2010, 01:34 PM   #3
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Originally Posted by 505max94se View Post
looks good. how much do you plan to spray?
Actually I was thinking about using the elbow nozzles as a third stage, to supplement the before-throttlebody Sharks, now set at 75-shot and 100-shot. If I do it, this will be on the old nitrous setup from last year.

The new engine, using nitrous with methanol, will take some serious EU tuning, with a planned redline of at least 8K, but the third nitrous stage will be tested at 6K and above....

The new engine should handle at least a total of 300-shot of nitrous. It's built for at least 1000 hp, up to 10K. How to use it - that's probably all of next season to figure out.
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Old 05-23-2010, 02:45 PM   #4
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Sounds like you already have four nozzles. Why not get two more and go direct port. It would be a lot safer with the amount of nitrous you plan on spraying.
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Old 05-23-2010, 02:50 PM   #5
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I like the direct port idea but depending on how much you plan to spray out of a single system it may not be needed
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Old 05-23-2010, 04:12 PM   #6
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I like it! I was thinking the same thing for my meth injection. Having dual nozzles instead of one big one, for better distribution. I actually have two nozzles mounted on the pipe before the TB, but having it how you have in the 1st pic would be great. Do you know more or less how thick that area of the elbow is?
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Old 05-23-2010, 08:07 PM   #7
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I like it! I was thinking the same thing for my meth injection. Having dual nozzles instead of one big one, for better distribution. I actually have two nozzles mounted on the pipe before the TB, but having it how you have in the 1st pic would be great. Do you know more or less how thick that area of the elbow is?
It would be hard to measure because of the curve of the tube, but with the holes drilled and carefully tapped for the Shark (1/8 NPT) there's lot of material there. All I need to finish those two nozzles is to back them out and deburr the holes, then use some red Permabond to make them permanent. The elbow is pretty meaty right there. And yes, I did think about using that location for meth/water injection, before I decided to go for the dual-stage direct port injection with methanol instead of gas.

Oh, heck, I owe you one for doing all my RMT research, so I"ll go take a couple of photos.




and the start of my EU adapter:



I think it would work for you...
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Old 05-23-2010, 08:16 PM   #8
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Sounds like you already have four nozzles. Why not get two more and go direct port. It would be a lot safer with the amount of nitrous you plan on spraying.
I guess I wasn't very clear - but I plan on building two separate stages of direct-port injection with 12 NX Piranha nozzles 24 hard lines, four distribution manifolds and two pairs of nitrous/fuel solenoids, fed from a 3 gallon fuel cell full of methanol, a Walbro 255HP pump and Aeromotive FPR. My SSIM will take some serious machine work to make that work - but I have a great machinist. He can practice on my spare intake manifold.

I'll retire the old nitrous system, except for the dual 15lb bottles in the trunk.

...
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Old 05-23-2010, 08:25 PM   #9
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I like the direct port idea but depending on how much you plan to spray out of a single system it may not be needed
Yeah, but... Previous experience shows me I can't use more than a 75-shot to launch, and I have been getting in and out of the second stage in the upper gears, depending on traction. Since I use a custom nitrous-cut circuit to make the shifts faster, progressive is out - plus I don't like dancing solenoids anyway.

Once I get the rev limiter raised to 8K or more, I want to have a third stage for the upper revs. At least that's where my plans are at today.
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Old 05-23-2010, 08:59 PM   #10
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I love it!! Direct-port yuminess!!

If you plan on selling your old setup.. I'll take it.
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Old 05-23-2010, 09:25 PM   #11
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It would be hard to measure because of the curve of the tube, but with the holes drilled and carefully tapped for the Shark (1/8 NPT) there's lot of material there. All I need to finish those two nozzles is to back them out and deburr the holes, then use some red Permabond to make them permanent. The elbow is pretty meaty right there. And yes, I did think about using that location for meth/water injection, before I decided to go for the dual-stage direct port injection with methanol instead of gas.

Oh, heck, I owe you one for doing all my RMT research, so I"ll go take a couple of photos.




and the start of my EU adapter:



I think it would work for you...
Thanx for the picture, that gives me an idea of how I can mount my nozzle. I gotta figure out what to do because the nozzle thread only has like 4 threads, so not even near as thick as the manifolds wall.
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Old 05-23-2010, 09:42 PM   #12
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Thanx for the picture, that gives me an idea of how I can mount my nozzle. I gotta figure out what to do because the nozzle thread only has like 4 threads, so not even near as thick as the manifolds wall.
Are your nozzles built to spray straight ahead, instead of turning a corner? If so I think you can go back a little further around the corner of the elbow and drill at an angle, so they would shoot straight down the elbow into the manifold.

If your nozzles are either 1/16 NPT or 1/8 NPT, you can drill a few test holes and plug the ones you don't want with a standard NPT plug...
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Old 05-23-2010, 10:12 PM   #13
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Can't wait to see the direct port setup.
Make sure you invest in some equal distribution blocks. Not the typical square ones that most people use.

Like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Nitro...Q5fCarQ5fParts
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Old 05-24-2010, 08:00 AM   #14
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Can't wait to see the direct port setup.
Make sure you invest in some equal distribution blocks. Not the typical square ones that most people use.

Like this:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Nitro...Q5fCarQ5fParts
Right now I'm leaning toward the NX 2-in 16-out blocks. I know the logic used for showerheads, but I don't think that I can get four 6-port showerheads with their solenoids and hardlines mounted on the intake. I intend for each stage to be separately mounted so that hard lines can be loosened and the entire assembly lifted up to change jets - without bending the lines. Cracking hard lines is not desirable.... 12 nozzles = 24 hard lines.

I will have -6AN lines for nitrous and methanol run to the solenoid pairs through hi-flow Y-connectors and filters.

It's gonna be a pile of hardware mounted on the SSIM - or whatever intake manifold I settle on. I've bought some tubing, line cutters and flaring tools along with sample nozzles and taps, and I've already discovered that you gotta have a quality 37-degree flaring tool - and stainless steel 3/16" lines just don't flare well. Back to plain steel, I guess.

This will be complicated.....
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Old 05-24-2010, 12:02 PM   #15
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I would just run one direct port and your elbow system.

Get some 26" slicks and spray 100 out of the hole (elbow) and 150 as soon as you can (DP).
That's how I would do it!
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Old 05-24-2010, 12:06 PM   #16
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I would just run one direct port and your elbow system.

Get some 26" slicks and spray 100 out of the hole (elbow) and 150 as soon as you can (DP).
That's how I would do it!
I would do a single stage, direct port 250+ shot with a progressive controller. I know he doesn't like progressive controllers though...
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Old 05-24-2010, 12:26 PM   #17
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I would do a single stage, direct port 250+ shot with a progressive controller. I know he doesn't like progressive controllers though...
Crazy man.... I've sprayed at least 100 15lb bottles in the last three years on several tracks, and the one thing I learned is to always have control of what you're spraying and when it happens. Breaking loose and sliding, mysterious "wet" spots on the track, deciding to "run em down" at the traps, getting in and out of spray while going down the track, doing stupid sh*t on the street, all these have contributed. I usually launch on a 75-shot and use the second 100-shot stage as I can. A 100-shot on launch lights up the slicks too much - 75-shot is max with the 24.5x8.5x15 M&Hs. I'm gonna need bigger slicks.

No dancing solenoids for me...... I'm too old - I would never learn to control a progressive.

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Old 05-24-2010, 12:40 PM   #18
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Are your nozzles built to spray straight ahead, instead of turning a corner? If so I think you can go back a little further around the corner of the elbow and drill at an angle, so they would shoot straight down the elbow into the manifold.

If your nozzles are either 1/16 NPT or 1/8 NPT, you can drill a few test holes and plug the ones you don't want with a standard NPT plug...
Yeah the nozzles shot straight ahead. I will def be drilling them at an angle, good idea.
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Old 05-24-2010, 12:45 PM   #19
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I knew you were going to say something along those lines. lol

Truth is, a progressive controller gives you more control. It just isn't very good for the solenoids. You could use your two other sets of solenoids as back ups.

I hooked on smaller slicks (m&h 23x7.5x15), spraying a 150 shot out of the hole. I was also dumping the clutch off the rev limiter and I have much shorting gearing. 1st gear only goes about 35 mph with my small slicks. My trick is limiting straps, large burnout, and low tire pressure.
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Old 05-24-2010, 01:30 PM   #20
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I knew you were going to say something along those lines. lol

Truth is, a progressive controller gives you more control. It just isn't very good for the solenoids. You could use your two other sets of solenoids as back ups.

I hooked on smaller slicks (m&h 23x7.5x15), spraying a 150 shot out of the hole. I was also dumping the clutch off the rev limiter and I have much shorting gearing. 1st gear only goes about 35 mph with my small slicks. My trick is limiting straps, large burnout, and low tire pressure.
You were just poking a stick at me, right?

My car weighs 3540 at the line, cocked and locked, and stalled up to 3000. If I use any more than a 75-shot, the slicks break loose and spin and I lose a couple of tenths before the 330'. That's repeatable - and I do know how to do burnouts and run not less than 14lbs, with 1.8xx 60' and occasional 1.7xx 60'. I have no monkey-motion front or rear. So what's the difference here?

11-21-2009 100-shot launch, when I lost a cylinder:
http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...9_3rd_Pass.flv

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Old 05-24-2010, 02:27 PM   #21
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You were just poking a stick at me, right?
Maybe a little bit. lol

I'm not trying to be rude though. I love what you are doing. You are one of the few nitrous pioneers that has inspired me.

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My car weighs 3540 at the line, cocked and locked, and stalled up to 3000. If I use any more than a 75-shot, the slicks break loose and spin and I lose a couple of tenths before the 330'. That's repeatable - and I do know how to do burnouts and run not less than 14lbs, with 1.8xx 60' and occasional 1.7xx 60'. I have no monkey-motion front or rear. So what's the difference here?
3540!! That's probably a big part of your traction problems. My car probably weighs about 3100lbs (race weight).

My car consistently does a 1.7 60' time. I have been using a progressive controller, but it's not like it's doing a whole lot. It ramps up from 0-100% in 0.5 seconds. I'm about 99% sure it'll do a 1.6 60ft, if I spray 100% out of the hole.

I tried 14psi tire pressure and it spun a little bit. At 13psi it spun a little less. At 12psi it hooked.

This is just my experience though. Do what you will with it. I'm just trying to help.
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11-21-2009 100-shot launch, when I lost a cylinder:
http://s48.photobucket.com/albums/f2...9_3rd_Pass.flv
It looks like the front raises and the rear squats a little bit, but it's not that bad.

Man, I can't wait to see what your car runs with the new motor.
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Old 05-24-2010, 03:29 PM   #22
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Maybe a little bit. lol

I'm not trying to be rude though. I love what you are doing. You are one of the few nitrous pioneers that has inspired me.


3540!! That's probably a big part of your traction problems. My car probably weighs about 3100lbs (race weight).

My car consistently does a 1.7 60' time. I have been using a progressive controller, but it's not like it's doing a whole lot. It ramps up from 0-100% in 0.5 seconds. I'm about 99% sure it'll do a 1.6 60ft, if I spray 100% out of the hole.

I tried 14psi tire pressure and it spun a little bit. At 13psi it spun a little less. At 12psi it hooked.

This is just my experience though. Do what you will with it. I'm just trying to help.


It looks like the front raises and the rear squats a little bit, but it's not that bad.

Man, I can't wait to see what your car runs with the new motor.
Remember - I will NOT strip down my car for racing - I run with everything factory on board, plus Alpine audio and a Fosgate sub and all the racing stuff. Hence, it's heavy.... None of these stripped down tin cans for me. I wonder what the old motor would have done in a car 800 lb lighter? Can you say mid-11's?

At anything under 14 psi, the slicks sometimes dance across the strip before the line, and stopping can get really scary. I stick with 14 lb to stay alive. Probably wider slicks will help. The new engine? That will be - exciting - once it's installed and broken in, along with the Greddy EU and new nitrous/methanol setup, but getting all of that done will take time.
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Old 05-28-2010, 06:08 PM   #23
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Harold I would check out the Walbro/methanol compatibility, I have heard E85 problems with the Walbro and the methanol is much more corrosive.

Also check out the solenoid compatibility, I switched over to McMaster Carr solenoids because the NX noid seals will not handle methanol.

I'm currently tuning my setup using methanol as the secondary fuel for nitrous and you have to have lots of jets as well because the methanol requires approx twice the flow vs gas because of its lower BTU value. So far looks good I am using a Devils Own 250 psi pump but so far just going to try a 35 shot and go from there. I did try the 100 shot fuel noid and it lowered my a/f from 12.8 to around 10 o it will take a bit of tuning to get it right.
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Old 05-28-2010, 07:19 PM   #24
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Harold I would check out the Walbro/methanol compatibility, I have heard E85 problems with the Walbro and the methanol is much more corrosive.

Also check out the solenoid compatibility, I switched over to McMaster Carr solenoids because the NX noid seals will not handle methanol.

I'm currently tuning my setup using methanol as the secondary fuel for nitrous and you have to have lots of jets as well because the methanol requires approx twice the flow vs gas because of its lower BTU value. So far looks good I am using a Devils Own 250 psi pump but so far just going to try a 35 shot and go from there. I did try the 100 shot fuel noid and it lowered my a/f from 12.8 to around 10 o it will take a bit of tuning to get it right.
Jime I dont know if this applies to your application, but I have always heard and been told that as a rule of thumb you dont want the meth shot to drop your a/f more than 1 point, if its more, then you lower the shot. Now if its just 100% meth and not using water, no biggie you can just make corrections to lean it back out. Iv learned in my case when its more than 1point with my 50/50 meth/water, it tends to bog a little bit, mostly due to the water probably. Just sharing what I have researched. your using 100% water?
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Old 05-28-2010, 09:41 PM   #25
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Harold I would check out the Walbro/methanol compatibility, I have heard E85 problems with the Walbro and the methanol is much more corrosive.

Also check out the solenoid compatibility, I switched over to McMaster Carr solenoids because the NX noid seals will not handle methanol.

I'm currently tuning my setup using methanol as the secondary fuel for nitrous and you have to have lots of jets as well because the methanol requires approx twice the flow vs gas because of its lower BTU value. So far looks good I am using a Devils Own 250 psi pump but so far just going to try a 35 shot and go from there. I did try the 100 shot fuel noid and it lowered my a/f from 12.8 to around 10 o it will take a bit of tuning to get it right.
Thanx for the heads-up on Walbro - I'm almost sure those pumps can handle methanol, but I can easily change it, because it will be mounted on the fuel cell. I know the Aeromotive FPR is methanol-compatible. NX also has jetting charts for direct-port injection using methanol.... the jet sizes are about 110% more volume than gas jets. But - try finding a fuel pressure gauge for methanol. I've found just one.

NX has separate noids for methanol, see here: http://www.nitrousexpress.com/produc...egory=1,25,251
They have a pretty complete catalog going for themselves.

Direct-port 6cyl jetting:
http://www.nitrousexpress.com/Instru..._dpjetting.pdf


When I use race fuel for the engine injectors and methanol with the nitrous, I expect to see weird numbers for A/F as I spray. Heck, back in the day with my Triumph 850cc drag bike using nitromethane/methanol 50-50, I just had to read the plugs and hope for the best, because 100% nitromethane has a 1:1 A/F. and I didn't have a A/F meter - I don't think they were invented by 1970....

So you're trying some methanol with your nitrous? subscribed....

I've started rebuilding my trailer, with an eye for security. The battery will be in a locked steel box welded to the trailer frame up front, and secured with huge Master locks and aircraft security cable. The winch and mounting plate will be bolted together, the bolts welded to the mounting plate, the mounting plate welded to the trailer frame, and the winch will have two 1/8" steel straps welded around both ends for additional safety. Let's hope nothing breaks!

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Old 05-29-2010, 04:14 AM   #26
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I've started rebuilding my trailer, with an eye for security. The battery will be in a locked steel box welded to the trailer frame up front, and secured with huge Master locks and aircraft security cable. The winch and mounting plate will be bolted together, the bolts welded to the mounting plate, the mounting plate welded to the trailer frame, and the winch will have two 1/8" steel straps welded around both ends for additional safety. Let's hope nothing breaks!
And don't forget a BIG dog

Sucks you have to go thru all get to keep your stuff

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Old 05-29-2010, 12:02 PM   #27
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So I did a little more tuning today and have it all in the 12.6 -12.8 range. Then I tried the 35 shot and it ran in the 11.5 area just where I want it so I tried the 100 shot, same thing so my jet calculations were bang on. I also tried the 35 and 100 together but not enough traction so i will save that for tomorrow at the track.

Here is my chart but its for 80/20 meth/water and 150 psi so it will change accordingly with a different mix or press change. My pump was initially set at 250 psi but I figured that wasn't really necessary so I dropped it down.

HP N2O Fuel Meth
150 62 35 52
125 57 33 49
100 52 28 41
75 41 22 33
50 35 20 30
35 31 18 26

I've just put in a new trans with 5k on it and a new engine out of an 07 with 9k on it so will be interesting to see what it does N/A. Its bone stock, just dropped it in as is and don't plan plan modding it. If it can still run an 11.5 tomorrow on a 100-200 shot I am fine for the season I have one import series that I run an 11.5 index class, the rest I run N/A.

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Old 05-29-2010, 03:57 PM   #28
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Epic work! EU FTW
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Old 05-29-2010, 08:40 PM   #29
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And don't forget a BIG dog

Sucks you have to go thru all get to keep your stuff
Ha! That would be a great way to scare off the thieves - or maybe eat them. Hummm..... Since I pay this storage place a couple hundred per month for a large storage unit and a parking place, and they have lights and cameras (almost) everywhere, I never expected this to happen.

Repairs are about half-finished today. I've got all the parts now, and need to get the winch mounted and welded into place. Probably this will be finished this weekend.
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Old 06-15-2010, 09:20 AM   #30
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Trailer is finished... pix

I have finished rebuilding the trailer. I installed a new 8,000 lb 12 volt winch and mounting plate, a new steel tool box, and a 850-cca tractor battery which goes inside that box.



The baseplate for the winch had been welded onto the front already, so I installed the new mounting plate and winch onto it with bolts - then welded the bolt heads so it will take a grinder to get it back off. I also bent 1/8" steel in two loops and welded them around both ends of the winch, attached to the mounting plate. Arc welding is not my thing -




The tool/battery box is mounted on the forward hitch with 1/2" bolts and lock nuts - inside the box. I have a 7' Kyptonite cable with lock going around the lid to keep people out.


I replaced all four tiedown straps with 10,000 lb ratchets and J-hooks on both ends, and will take them off when not using them.I also rewired my 2003 SC Frontier to provide a 30-amp fused charging connector at the back, so I can plug in and charge the battery while moving. I sure hope this takes care of the thieves.


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Old 06-15-2010, 10:29 AM   #31
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Looks great!
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Old 06-15-2010, 12:10 PM   #32
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They'll have to take the whole thing this time
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Old 06-15-2010, 12:32 PM   #33
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Great work. Are enclosed trailers much more money then open trailers?
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Old 06-15-2010, 01:27 PM   #34
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They'll have to take the whole thing this time
That's gonna be real hard to do. Notice the extreme security cables through all the wheels and axles, and secured with the biggest baddest padlocks that Master makes. Hmmmm.... of course, they could back up to it with another trailer and use my winch to pull it up onto their trailer!


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Old 06-15-2010, 01:36 PM   #35
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Great work. Are enclosed trailers much more money then open trailers?
Two or three times as much, depending on size. (mine was $1,900) I thought about that when I got mine, which is a 16ft+2ft-dovetail wood top trailer, but it weights over 2000 lb. The trailer and my car combined weigh a hair over 5500 lbs, the upper limit for my Frontier to pull. And pulling an enclosed trailer in a strong crosswind could be fatal....

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Old 06-15-2010, 01:59 PM   #36
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Two or three times as much, depending on size. (mine was $1,900) I thought about that when I got mine, which is a 16ft+2ft-dovetail wood top trailer, but it weights over 2000 lb. The trailer and my car combined weigh a hair over 5500 lbs, the upper limit for my Frontier to pull. And pulling an enclosed trailer in a strong crosswind could be fatal....
Can't they just freeze the wire with liquid nitrogen and smash it?
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Old 06-15-2010, 02:25 PM   #37
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Can't they just freeze the wire with liquid nitrogen and smash it?
There's a devious mind at work here.... Dunno - supposedly the lock is made to withstand everything portable, but the cables are stainless aircraft cable with a plastic coating, so maybe with a bucket of liquid nitrogen, damage can be done. The catch is that if anyone moves my trailer out of the storage area, they will show up quite clearly on the hi-resolution cameras around the only exit gate - and some of those are hidden.....
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Old 06-15-2010, 02:32 PM   #38
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Faces can always be hidden, and plates can always be faked. Time for you to upgrade to a swat team.
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Old 06-15-2010, 03:05 PM   #39
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Faces can always be hidden, and plates can always be faked. Time for you to upgrade to a swat team.
So which shift do you want?
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Old 06-15-2010, 03:12 PM   #40
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I think you'll be fine. The only thing I could see someone doing is drilling out the locks on the toolbox. On my toolbox I welded a steel plate with holes for a bolt lock directly to the box and lid.
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