ignition retard under boost
09-02-2003, 06:00 AM
#1
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 113
ignition retard under boost
Is it possible to for us to use a MSD 6 BTM?
" The Universal Boost Timing Master allows you to adjust the ignition timing in relation to the boost pressure plus it has a built-in inductive ignition. You can adjust the dash mounted control **** to retard the timing 1° - 3° per pound of boost, up to 20°. "
the real question is, will this work with our coil ignition:
"The Universal BTM is designed to work with most single coil factory or aftermarket ignition amplifiers and points type distributors."
Link to MSD 6 BTM product page
MSD-5462 $165 from summit
" The Universal Boost Timing Master allows you to adjust the ignition timing in relation to the boost pressure plus it has a built-in inductive ignition. You can adjust the dash mounted control **** to retard the timing 1° - 3° per pound of boost, up to 20°. "
the real question is, will this work with our coil ignition:
"The Universal BTM is designed to work with most single coil factory or aftermarket ignition amplifiers and points type distributors."
Link to MSD 6 BTM product page
MSD-5462 $165 from summit
09-02-2003, 06:18 AM
#3
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 113
Originally Posted by DA-MAX
I SERIOUSLY don't see it working on a DIS ignition...but can't you guys use J&S?? doesn't J&S retard under boost or is it just set value?
one of yall should try it out..~$80 off Ebay if you're lucky(thats how I got mine for my Integra) good luck with the wiring though...
09-02-2003, 07:26 AM
#5
Originally Posted by guestNX
yes but look at the price difference. 165 vs ~500-700 for J&S. J&S in my opin. is a great unit, and better than this MSD BTM , but enough to justify 500$ more expense if the MSD would work? not for me.
09-03-2003, 03:32 AM
#6
Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 44
MSD6's won't work, for a couple reasons. First, it's designed to work with one coil, because it's a one channel unit. You would need three of them. Then you will need to change out all the coils, since the MSD can't drive the stock ones. The MSD needs access to both the coil positive and the coil negative. Your coils have a built in ignition transistor, which is connected internally to the coil negative, so you can't get to it.
You could change out all the coils, and use an MSD DIS4. Use three of the four channels, and wire the car for waste spark.
Oh, you are gonna also have check engine lights.
The J&S controls the stock coils, and we have the check engine light problem solved.
The unit does not control the nitrous solenoid. We sense when the solenoid turns on, and add a selectable amount of nitrous retard.
We have a new, lower cost retard display.
You could change out all the coils, and use an MSD DIS4. Use three of the four channels, and wire the car for waste spark.
Oh, you are gonna also have check engine lights.
The J&S controls the stock coils, and we have the check engine light problem solved.
The unit does not control the nitrous solenoid. We sense when the solenoid turns on, and add a selectable amount of nitrous retard.
We have a new, lower cost retard display.
09-03-2003, 07:31 AM
#9
Senior Member
Thread Starter
Join Date: May 2003
Posts: 113
Originally Posted by John at J&S
MSD6's won't work, for a couple reasons. First, it's designed to work with one coil, because it's a one channel unit. You would need three of them. Then you will need to change out all the coils, since the MSD can't drive the stock ones. The MSD needs access to both the coil positive and the coil negative. Your coils have a built in ignition transistor, which is connected internally to the coil negative, so you can't get to it.
You could change out all the coils, and use an MSD DIS4. Use three of the four channels, and wire the car for waste spark.
Oh, you are gonna also have check engine lights.
The J&S controls the stock coils, and we have the check engine light problem solved.
The unit does not control the nitrous solenoid. We sense when the solenoid turns on, and add a selectable amount of nitrous retard.
We have a new, lower cost retard display.
You could change out all the coils, and use an MSD DIS4. Use three of the four channels, and wire the car for waste spark.
Oh, you are gonna also have check engine lights.
The J&S controls the stock coils, and we have the check engine light problem solved.
The unit does not control the nitrous solenoid. We sense when the solenoid turns on, and add a selectable amount of nitrous retard.
We have a new, lower cost retard display.
thank you for all the info! drew96: check your pm's
09-03-2003, 05:57 PM
#11
Nice!
John if you don't mind....can you explain WHY you guys require the ignition changed to 'wasted spark'. I've read the instructions and everything looks pretty simple(haven't installed yet!), but I was curious why you guys did that.
Any negative to a 'waste spark' setup?
Any negative to a 'waste spark' setup?
Originally Posted by John at J&S
MSD6's won't work, for a couple reasons. First, it's designed to work with one coil, because it's a one channel unit. You would need three of them. Then you will need to change out all the coils, since the MSD can't drive the stock ones. The MSD needs access to both the coil positive and the coil negative. Your coils have a built in ignition transistor, which is connected internally to the coil negative, so you can't get to it.
You could change out all the coils, and use an MSD DIS4. Use three of the four channels, and wire the car for waste spark.
Oh, you are gonna also have check engine lights.
The J&S controls the stock coils, and we have the check engine light problem solved.
The unit does not control the nitrous solenoid. We sense when the solenoid turns on, and add a selectable amount of nitrous retard.
We have a new, lower cost retard display.
You could change out all the coils, and use an MSD DIS4. Use three of the four channels, and wire the car for waste spark.
Oh, you are gonna also have check engine lights.
The J&S controls the stock coils, and we have the check engine light problem solved.
The unit does not control the nitrous solenoid. We sense when the solenoid turns on, and add a selectable amount of nitrous retard.
We have a new, lower cost retard display.
09-03-2003, 08:02 PM
#12
Member
Join Date: Jun 2002
Posts: 44
Waste spark on a six cylinder only requires three channels. There just wasn't enough room on the circuit board for six channels. All I could squeeze in was four.
The AEM standalone has five ignition channels, so it also requires waste spark operation on a six cylinder.
Photos here:
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/images/4ChProto.jpg
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/images/4coil.jpg
The AEM standalone has five ignition channels, so it also requires waste spark operation on a six cylinder.
Photos here:
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/images/4ChProto.jpg
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/images/4coil.jpg
09-03-2003, 11:00 PM
#13
Thanks John...VERY impressive looking product
Plus, you can't go wrong with something that comes in a Crown Royal velour bag, eh?
Just wondering, can using the wasted spark ignition pattern cause the coils to NOT have enough time to charge between discharges at high RPM?
Just wondering, can using the wasted spark ignition pattern cause the coils to NOT have enough time to charge between discharges at high RPM?
Originally Posted by John at J&S
Waste spark on a six cylinder only requires three channels. There just wasn't enough room on the circuit board for six channels. All I could squeeze in was four.
The AEM standalone has five ignition channels, so it also requires waste spark operation on a six cylinder.
Photos here:
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/images/4ChProto.jpg
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/images/4coil.jpg
The AEM standalone has five ignition channels, so it also requires waste spark operation on a six cylinder.
Photos here:
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/images/4ChProto.jpg
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/images/4coil.jpg
09-06-2003, 07:29 AM
#17
Originally Posted by MardiGrasMax
The J&S Ultra Safeguard is what made my 11.9et a reality. It would not have happend with out it! Super product, super customer support, highly recomended!!!
09-06-2003, 08:42 AM
#18
Originally Posted by MardiGrasMax
The J&S Ultra Safeguard is what made my 11.9et a reality. It would not have happend with out it! Super product, super customer support, highly recomended!!!
Also, do the timing changes and afr that JWT programs into an ecu in their turbo program make an Ultra Safeguard unneccessary, or at least raise the boost level for safe operation without it?
09-06-2003, 04:05 PM
#19
Originally Posted by hlh0501
with a consultII or whatever at the nissan dealers to adjust ecu's... can I advance my timing across the board and save/burn it like that? then, add the J&S - to get basically the same effect as your ecu+J&S combo?
09-06-2003, 04:15 PM
#20
Originally Posted by Stephen Max
At what level of boost in a supercharged, non-intercooled car would you consider the Ultra Safeguard an absolute necessity?
Also, do the timing changes and afr that JWT programs into an ecu in their turbo program make an Ultra Safeguard unneccessary, or at least raise the boost level for safe operation without it?
Also, do the timing changes and afr that JWT programs into an ecu in their turbo program make an Ultra Safeguard unneccessary, or at least raise the boost level for safe operation without it?
A JWT ECU is supposed to be plug and play up to the max of your injectors (620whp for 555cc). However I plan on keeping my J&S as a "Safeguard"
Also I can run a large wet nitrous shot and use the Safeguard to pull timing for that aside from waht the JWT ECU is doing. JWT does offer a 100oct racing gas turbo program, I am considering getting that and using the J&S to pull timing for the street, then at the track run the 100oct with the J&S boost timing retard turned off. They also have a studder program add on for building boost for launch and a program for water/alch injection. All these add ons get expensive though.
JWT is tuned conservativly, you wont get every last HP out of their normal turbo program, but for those who want a simple way to plug and play its purty good.
I just dig the 7200rpm limit and abality to run 555cc injectors at stock fuel pressure.
Also remember this, the Max ignores the knock sensor at WOT, so the JWT ECU can not do what the J&S does. If you get a bad tank of gas with a JWT ECU and run 12psi, you probabbly toast. With a J&S Safeguard your "SAFE"!!!, but boy will the knock monitor light up real pretty like as its saving your a s s!
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