Cattman's headers on a SC'd Max..
09-04-2003, 12:03 AM
#1
Cattman's headers on a SC'd Max..
Hey guys,
Anyone willing to guess what headers might do on a blown max (non turbo of course, sorry dixit/etc).
I'm curious as to whether or not I should expect a large gain from stock "restriction" - ie. about 40fwhp or so given the circumstance of the 15-18fwhp that Brian claims he saw on his stock ypipe/header mix.
Given the fact that stock restrictions are pretty bad (such as the y-pipe which yielded huge increases upon replacement), I'm somewhat tempted to think that doing the headers may yield something nice and high too... anyone here ever done any header work on a car that was originally naturally aspirated and brought to boost form? I'm looking for words of encouragement I guess before I dish out 750 big ones for this.. I'd hate to waste my time for a 20fwhp increase... 40fwhp+ would be nice
On the upside, the power will always multiply accross the powerband more equally as opposed to exponentially...
Anyone willing to guess what headers might do on a blown max (non turbo of course, sorry dixit/etc).
I'm curious as to whether or not I should expect a large gain from stock "restriction" - ie. about 40fwhp or so given the circumstance of the 15-18fwhp that Brian claims he saw on his stock ypipe/header mix.
Given the fact that stock restrictions are pretty bad (such as the y-pipe which yielded huge increases upon replacement), I'm somewhat tempted to think that doing the headers may yield something nice and high too... anyone here ever done any header work on a car that was originally naturally aspirated and brought to boost form? I'm looking for words of encouragement I guess before I dish out 750 big ones for this.. I'd hate to waste my time for a 20fwhp increase... 40fwhp+ would be nice
On the upside, the power will always multiply accross the powerband more equally as opposed to exponentially...
09-04-2003, 01:47 PM
#4
Blackcat's point is my only problem... I'm going overseas for a wedding in a few days, and I'm looking for a winter car at the same time...
I will sleep on it for a night longer
PS. I can likely overcome brokerage and all if I ask him to ship it as a commercial sample to my little co. in interest of becoming a distributor of the product
I will sleep on it for a night longer
PS. I can likely overcome brokerage and all if I ask him to ship it as a commercial sample to my little co. in interest of becoming a distributor of the product
09-04-2003, 02:50 PM
#7
Why couldn't we have competition like Civics... Multiple vendors drive down prices so much for them... It's just not fair... Oh well... If it's over 25fwhp on N/A then i'll get them, which means i won't be getting them 
LEMAR
LEMAR
09-04-2003, 02:55 PM
#8
Tell you what, you make some parts for the Maxima and see how much it costs.
You know what, the people on here are cheap. There I said it, they are cheap. Everyone compares the prices we have to pay to honda prices. Doesn't work that way. Our motors are more complex, the cars are different, most things are bigger, and there is a much smaller customer base to defray development costs.
It's funny when people here act as if they're entitled to $200 headers, $1500 turbo kits, $50 intakes, and $200 exhausts like the honda owners. never ever going to happen because the market just isn't big enough. And even most Honda owners don't buy that much cheap stuff. Nice headers are still $500-$1000, same with nice exhausts, good turbo kits go for $4k.
Compare what we pay to what the Supra guys pay. Manual conversion may cost you $2K with labor, maybe a little more. Powerhouse charges $10K for a Supra. My friend's shop charges $5400 for the Supra tranny conversion and he has to turn away people, they line up to pay that.
I promise that no matter how low the prices go, the people here will complain and they still won't buy it. Until you know what it takes to make a product, don't complain about the price.
Brian Catts is not making that much on the headers for $750.00. Each bend costs $5-10 to make and then the HPS coatings, the welding, the labor, the flanges, the tubing, the hardware.
You know what, the people on here are cheap. There I said it, they are cheap. Everyone compares the prices we have to pay to honda prices. Doesn't work that way. Our motors are more complex, the cars are different, most things are bigger, and there is a much smaller customer base to defray development costs.
It's funny when people here act as if they're entitled to $200 headers, $1500 turbo kits, $50 intakes, and $200 exhausts like the honda owners. never ever going to happen because the market just isn't big enough. And even most Honda owners don't buy that much cheap stuff. Nice headers are still $500-$1000, same with nice exhausts, good turbo kits go for $4k.
Compare what we pay to what the Supra guys pay. Manual conversion may cost you $2K with labor, maybe a little more. Powerhouse charges $10K for a Supra. My friend's shop charges $5400 for the Supra tranny conversion and he has to turn away people, they line up to pay that.
I promise that no matter how low the prices go, the people here will complain and they still won't buy it. Until you know what it takes to make a product, don't complain about the price.
Brian Catts is not making that much on the headers for $750.00. Each bend costs $5-10 to make and then the HPS coatings, the welding, the labor, the flanges, the tubing, the hardware.
Originally Posted by Greek to the Max
they are raping people these days on everything. They say there are no people with money on here. Well, if they sold for less, there would be more buyers. Fools.
09-04-2003, 03:01 PM
#9
We do have competition. But we don't have volume, which has a bigger effect on price.
We have
3 turbo kits ( soon to be 4)
1 SC kit
4 Y-Pipes
7 exhausts
4 CF hoods
7-8 bodykit options
7 intakes
and the list goes on.
That's plenty of options. The number one complaint I here from distributors and vendors is that they've developed a part for the Maxima and it's not selling like they thought it would. Can't blame them for not wanting to develop something else after that.
We have
3 turbo kits ( soon to be 4)
1 SC kit
4 Y-Pipes
7 exhausts
4 CF hoods
7-8 bodykit options
7 intakes
and the list goes on.
That's plenty of options. The number one complaint I here from distributors and vendors is that they've developed a part for the Maxima and it's not selling like they thought it would. Can't blame them for not wanting to develop something else after that.
Originally Posted by RastaManMax
Why couldn't we have competition like Civics... Multiple vendors drive down prices so much for them... It's just not fair... Oh well... If it's over 25fwhp on N/A then i'll get them, which means i won't be getting them
LEMAR
LEMAR
09-04-2003, 03:41 PM
#10
Originally Posted by Shadow
Tell you what, you make some parts for the Maxima and see how much it costs.
You know what, the people on here are cheap. There I said it, they are cheap. Everyone compares the prices we have to pay to honda prices. Doesn't work that way. Our motors are more complex, the cars are different, most things are bigger, and there is a much smaller customer base to defray development costs.
It's funny when people here act as if they're entitled to $200 headers, $1500 turbo kits, $50 intakes, and $200 exhausts like the honda owners. never ever going to happen because the market just isn't big enough. And even most Honda owners don't buy that much cheap stuff. Nice headers are still $500-$1000, same with nice exhausts, good turbo kits go for $4k.
Compare what we pay to what the Supra guys pay. Manual conversion may cost you $2K with labor, maybe a little more. Powerhouse charges $10K for a Supra. My friend's shop charges $5400 for the Supra tranny conversion and he has to turn away people, they line up to pay that.
I promise that no matter how low the prices go, the people here will complain and they still won't buy it. Until you know what it takes to make a product, don't complain about the price.
Brian Catts is not making that much on the headers for $750.00. Each bend costs $5-10 to make and then the HPS coatings, the welding, the labor, the flanges, the tubing, the hardware.
You know what, the people on here are cheap. There I said it, they are cheap. Everyone compares the prices we have to pay to honda prices. Doesn't work that way. Our motors are more complex, the cars are different, most things are bigger, and there is a much smaller customer base to defray development costs.
It's funny when people here act as if they're entitled to $200 headers, $1500 turbo kits, $50 intakes, and $200 exhausts like the honda owners. never ever going to happen because the market just isn't big enough. And even most Honda owners don't buy that much cheap stuff. Nice headers are still $500-$1000, same with nice exhausts, good turbo kits go for $4k.
Compare what we pay to what the Supra guys pay. Manual conversion may cost you $2K with labor, maybe a little more. Powerhouse charges $10K for a Supra. My friend's shop charges $5400 for the Supra tranny conversion and he has to turn away people, they line up to pay that.
I promise that no matter how low the prices go, the people here will complain and they still won't buy it. Until you know what it takes to make a product, don't complain about the price.
Brian Catts is not making that much on the headers for $750.00. Each bend costs $5-10 to make and then the HPS coatings, the welding, the labor, the flanges, the tubing, the hardware.
09-04-2003, 06:44 PM
#11
All YOUR grammer belong to me
Join Date: Jul 2001
Posts: 7,400
$750 for an excellent quality set of SS longtube headers is a fair price.
Most SS longtube headers for my friends '96 Impala SS cost over $1000. Now I know there is a little more piping involved but you get the picture. He is to us Maxima guys what we are to Honda guys regarding product pricing.
Most SS longtube headers for my friends '96 Impala SS cost over $1000. Now I know there is a little more piping involved but you get the picture. He is to us Maxima guys what we are to Honda guys regarding product pricing.
09-04-2003, 08:10 PM
#12
Imma say it too, cheap people on this board as well that compare everything to Honduhs. $750 for a set of headers to the cat are not expensive at all. Compare that to a dodge ram hemi which want $1500, compare that to a BMW M3/M5 that want over $3700 for a set of headers..... why dont we ever compare those cars?
I think if you pushing over 300whp and you stick those headers on with a 3" exhaust, im sure you can pick up near 40-50whp.
Dixit
I think if you pushing over 300whp and you stick those headers on with a 3" exhaust, im sure you can pick up near 40-50whp.
Dixit
09-05-2003, 12:36 AM
#13
Wow what a direction this thread has taken
I'm still sleeping on it, since this mod equals my plane ticket to Tobago in 3 weeks....
But as far as my thoughts go on the price, I've seen worse as others have mentioned... considering they come built/designed PROPERLY (unlike OBX products), and from a reputed company, AND are basically bolt-on out of the box (headers, downpipe, gaskets), AND are the first headers available to us, this is a fair price.
The only catch is you're paying $35/hp for gains around 20fwhp, which can be considered inefficient to your wallet - hp can be attained for less when you're blown by means of a smaller pulley... but you're comparing apples and oranges as the improvement will be over the entire power band, since it's a completely different type of mod. Less restriction is less restriction.
I'm going to poke at the factory headers tomorrow as I've never remotely paid attention to them so to see how I like them and how much work there is to do to get 'em out.
I wish I wasn't going bruk or I'd try this in a second... but we shall see...
....the way I also look at it, if I don't like the results, I may just have these available for someone someone else for $600
09-05-2003, 06:55 AM
#14
One thing to think about is that, yes, the Honda people have a lot of companies marketing stuff to choose from, which brings prices down, but a lot of what is being sold is very low quality. It is harder with the Honda folks to find quality stuff because of all the junk they have to wade through, and then they end up paying maybe not as much as we might have to pay, but close to it. And you know Cattman is quality.
09-05-2003, 08:21 AM
#16
Header because the factory exhaust manifolds are a bigger restriction than the piping after the headers. more bang for the buck with headers.
Originally Posted by Stephen Max
Okay, here's a hypothetical question.
Suppose you had the money for either a complete 3" exhaust from Warpspeed, or Cattman's header/y-pipe, but not both. Which would you choose and why?
Suppose you had the money for either a complete 3" exhaust from Warpspeed, or Cattman's header/y-pipe, but not both. Which would you choose and why?
09-05-2003, 08:24 AM
#17
Just as a piece of information. 1. Im not cheap, and have money and I still don't like the prices. Why, because nobody here who sells anything new, know's enough about their product when they go to sell. if someone said, hey JER, our product will give you 10HP, or 35HP, I bet JER or myself would choose instantly to buy, if it favoured us. Its all about how you sell. Most dealers don't give me any confidence to buy, and here in Toronto, where everything would have to be shipped into here, with duties and shipping, that confidence is less. Make people more aware of the products details and expectations of performance, and I know there would be more buyers. Also, if someone replies to this to say that there isent enough people to test the product, then they are full of it, cause any real business would give incentives for testing it. Not enough do....
09-05-2003, 10:58 AM
#19
Originally Posted by iansw
I'm seriously considering this in about 1-2 months.
Either this or a JWT ECU.
Decisions...Decisions....
Either this or a JWT ECU.
Decisions...Decisions....
The thing that swings me away from this is that it will have to come off if I ever go turbo. Unless it can be modified to become part of the exhaust piping to the turbo.
09-05-2003, 11:32 AM
#21
Supporting Maxima.org Member
iTrader: (38)
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Near Archer High School, Ga
Posts: 6,451
Originally Posted by iansw
I'm seriously considering this in about 1-2 months.
Either this or a JWT ECU.
Decisions...Decisions....
Either this or a JWT ECU.
Decisions...Decisions....
You know why some of these people are so da*mm cheap because most cant afford the **** or there is a young crowd driving maxes that cant afford to pay what the part actually costs. I mean if we are compared to hondas and what they pay, go buy a Honda simple as that. People bi*tch about everything, my suspension is not comfortable these headers are too much stillen charges too much etc..quit *****ing buy the stuff or shut the f*ck up or get a civic si and buy a useless Greddy turbo kit. This is the reason no one makes sh*t for us.
09-05-2003, 11:35 AM
#22
I'm not sure what he meant also. I have an adjustable FMU tho, and I think he knows that.
JAY25 - look at my post in the Nitrous section....
But this is OT....
And I completely agree with you - if you don't like your car enough to spend that kind of money to get a good product and do it right, but still want to modify your car, then go buy a Civic and STFU.
JAY25 - look at my post in the Nitrous section....
But this is OT....
And I completely agree with you - if you don't like your car enough to spend that kind of money to get a good product and do it right, but still want to modify your car, then go buy a Civic and STFU.
09-05-2003, 12:10 PM
#23
Originally Posted by iansw
I'm not sure what he meant also. I have an adjustable FMU tho, and I think he knows that.
Anyway, there are two problems with the rising rate fmu.
1. It is a mechanical device. It will eventually wear, resulting in rise rates that change over time. It can also stick, resulting in insufficient fuel when you need it the most.
2. Injectors driven at high fuel pressures can lock up. The fuel pressure at which lock up occurs will lower as the injector ages. This is due to eventual insulation breakdown in the injector solenoid, resulting in an injector that gradually (or suddenly, for that matter ) loses its ability to hold the pintle open against fuel pressure.
Ian, I thought you were converting to 370 cc/min injectors. Larger injectors allow for lower fuel pressure and less likelihood for injector lock up.
There was a lot more that I tried to post and lost. I don't feel like recalling it all right now. Grrrr.
09-05-2003, 12:13 PM
#24
Originally Posted by Stephen Max
Once again I spent about 20 minutes composing a reply to iwana's question only to be told that I'm not logged in when I hit the submit button. This is bullsh*t.
Anyway, there are two problems with the rising rate fmu.
1. It is a mechanical device. It will eventually wear, resulting in rise rates that change over time. It can also stick, resulting in insufficient fuel when you need it the most.
2. Injectors driven at high fuel pressures can lock up. The fuel pressure at which lock up occurs will lower as the injector ages. This is due to eventual insulation breakdown in the injector solenoid, resulting in an injector that gradually (or suddenly, for that matter ) loses its ability to hold the pintle open against fuel pressure.
Ian, I thought you were converting to 370 cc/min injectors. Larger injectors allow for lower fuel pressure and less likelihood for injector lock up.
There was a lot more that I tried to post and lost. I don't feel like recalling it all right now. Grrrr.
Anyway, there are two problems with the rising rate fmu.
1. It is a mechanical device. It will eventually wear, resulting in rise rates that change over time. It can also stick, resulting in insufficient fuel when you need it the most.
2. Injectors driven at high fuel pressures can lock up. The fuel pressure at which lock up occurs will lower as the injector ages. This is due to eventual insulation breakdown in the injector solenoid, resulting in an injector that gradually (or suddenly, for that matter ) loses its ability to hold the pintle open against fuel pressure.
Ian, I thought you were converting to 370 cc/min injectors. Larger injectors allow for lower fuel pressure and less likelihood for injector lock up.
There was a lot more that I tried to post and lost. I don't feel like recalling it all right now. Grrrr.
I'm still trying to figure out if I need a SARD FPR to tune the Fuel Pressure when at idle.....
09-05-2003, 12:21 PM
#25
Originally Posted by iansw
I thought cookies just weren't working for me.....
I'm still trying to figure out if I need a SARD FPR to tune the Fuel Pressure when at idle.....
I'm still trying to figure out if I need a SARD FPR to tune the Fuel Pressure when at idle.....
09-09-2003, 04:00 PM
#26
@Shadow...so VERY true. Check avatar and you'll know why I agree.Anyways, SC max = good buy...turbo max = STUPID buy.
SC guys are limited by MAXIMUM SC speed, so they hit a wall. Turbo guys PAID the big bucks, so that they don't have to *** with smaller pulleys/shreading belts and can turn up the boost with a *click*click*click*. If you have a turbo and your fuel system can support more boost, TURN IT UP! It's FREE! There is NO need to waste BIG $$$$ on other parts not to mention the PITA to install these, when you haven't even tapped out the potential of WHAT YOU'VE ALREADY PAID FOR!
09-09-2003, 04:03 PM
#27
Originally Posted by Stephen Max
Once again I spent about 20 minutes composing a reply to iwana's question only to be told that I'm not logged in when I hit the submit button. This is bullsh*t.
Anyway, there are two problems with the rising rate fmu.
1. It is a mechanical device. It will eventually wear, resulting in rise rates that change over time. It can also stick, resulting in insufficient fuel when you need it the most.
2. Injectors driven at high fuel pressures can lock up. The fuel pressure at which lock up occurs will lower as the injector ages. This is due to eventual insulation breakdown in the injector solenoid, resulting in an injector that gradually (or suddenly, for that matter ) loses its ability to hold the pintle open against fuel pressure.
Ian, I thought you were converting to 370 cc/min injectors. Larger injectors allow for lower fuel pressure and less likelihood for injector lock up.
There was a lot more that I tried to post and lost. I don't feel like recalling it all right now. Grrrr.
Anyway, there are two problems with the rising rate fmu.
1. It is a mechanical device. It will eventually wear, resulting in rise rates that change over time. It can also stick, resulting in insufficient fuel when you need it the most.
2. Injectors driven at high fuel pressures can lock up. The fuel pressure at which lock up occurs will lower as the injector ages. This is due to eventual insulation breakdown in the injector solenoid, resulting in an injector that gradually (or suddenly, for that matter ) loses its ability to hold the pintle open against fuel pressure.
Ian, I thought you were converting to 370 cc/min injectors. Larger injectors allow for lower fuel pressure and less likelihood for injector lock up.
There was a lot more that I tried to post and lost. I don't feel like recalling it all right now. Grrrr.
I appologize for the server.
Your posts are VERY informational and very welcome, so please keep them coming. I always find them informative and easy to understand.
Thanks!
09-09-2003, 05:01 PM
#30
Jeff really does have a good point, as well as others, there is an awful lot of talk and no action, i've fallen into that crowd twice...wasn't my fault the second time..., but what Brian is trying to do for us is awesome 
. I know i cannot afford the long tube headers, so you won't see me saying i want to see the dynos or the posting infamous "this thread is worthless without pics" smilies; I'll just trust him at his word, because so far he's said nothing to make me doubt anything he has to say. Now as far as power gains are concerned, i would venture to guess that since these equalize the lengths of the primaries that they will produce more power then the stock ones, or Nashua's for that matter. That in combination with basically a built in y-pipe will produce more power than a y-pipe alone (albeit not a huge increase), and increase the overall flowrate of the whole exhaust itself, a big plus for you supercharged guys. But anyway, if we ever hope to progress in aftermarket performance part's availability, we need to stop b!tching all the damn time because something is too exspensive, or isn't worth the money. No one is forcing you to buy a damn thing, if it's the only one in existance, and you can't afford it, save for it. It's really that simple. If you don't want to save up your money for it, because you don't think it's worth the money, then why post in the first place? if you don't like the price of something, yet have no intention of buying it in the first place, just STFU and let those of us who know quality do what we got to do to get it without ****ing off the people that are providing us with something new and innovative.
. I know i cannot afford the long tube headers, so you won't see me saying i want to see the dynos or the posting infamous "this thread is worthless without pics" smilies; I'll just trust him at his word, because so far he's said nothing to make me doubt anything he has to say. Now as far as power gains are concerned, i would venture to guess that since these equalize the lengths of the primaries that they will produce more power then the stock ones, or Nashua's for that matter. That in combination with basically a built in y-pipe will produce more power than a y-pipe alone (albeit not a huge increase), and increase the overall flowrate of the whole exhaust itself, a big plus for you supercharged guys. But anyway, if we ever hope to progress in aftermarket performance part's availability, we need to stop b!tching all the damn time because something is too exspensive, or isn't worth the money. No one is forcing you to buy a damn thing, if it's the only one in existance, and you can't afford it, save for it. It's really that simple. If you don't want to save up your money for it, because you don't think it's worth the money, then why post in the first place? if you don't like the price of something, yet have no intention of buying it in the first place, just STFU and let those of us who know quality do what we got to do to get it without ****ing off the people that are providing us with something new and innovative.
09-09-2003, 05:20 PM
#31
Supporting Maxima.org Member
iTrader: (38)
Join Date: Dec 2000
Location: Near Archer High School, Ga
Posts: 6,451
Originally Posted by Mad-MAX_SE
Jeff really does have a good point, as well as others, there is an awful lot of talk and no action, i've fallen into that crowd twice...wasn't my fault the second time..., but what Brian is trying to do for us is awesome . I know i cannot afford the long tube headers, so you won't see me saying i want to see the dynos or the posting infamous "this thread is worthless without pics" smilies; I'll just trust him at his word, because so far he's said nothing to make me doubt anything he has to say. Now as far as power gains are concerned, i would venture to guess that since these equalize the lengths of the primaries that they will produce more power then the stock ones, or Nashua's for that matter. That in combination with basically a built in y-pipe will produce more power than a y-pipe alone (albeit not a huge increase), and increase the overall flowrate of the whole exhaust itself, a big plus for you supercharged guys. But anyway, if we ever hope to progress in aftermarket performance part's availability, we need to stop b!tching all the damn time because something is too exspensive, or isn't worth the money. No one is forcing you to buy a damn thing, if it's the only one in existance, and you can't afford it, save for it. It's really that simple. If you don't want to save up your money for it, because you don't think it's worth the money, then why post in the first place? if you don't like the price of something, yet have no intention of buying it in the first place, just STFU and let those of us who know quality do what we got to do to get it without ****ing off the people that are providing us with something new and innovative.
. I know i cannot afford the long tube headers, so you won't see me saying i want to see the dynos or the posting infamous "this thread is worthless without pics" smilies; I'll just trust him at his word, because so far he's said nothing to make me doubt anything he has to say. Now as far as power gains are concerned, i would venture to guess that since these equalize the lengths of the primaries that they will produce more power then the stock ones, or Nashua's for that matter. That in combination with basically a built in y-pipe will produce more power than a y-pipe alone (albeit not a huge increase), and increase the overall flowrate of the whole exhaust itself, a big plus for you supercharged guys. But anyway, if we ever hope to progress in aftermarket performance part's availability, we need to stop b!tching all the damn time because something is too exspensive, or isn't worth the money. No one is forcing you to buy a damn thing, if it's the only one in existance, and you can't afford it, save for it. It's really that simple. If you don't want to save up your money for it, because you don't think it's worth the money, then why post in the first place? if you don't like the price of something, yet have no intention of buying it in the first place, just STFU and let those of us who know quality do what we got to do to get it without ****ing off the people that are providing us with something new and innovative.
Cattman makes good quality stuff, another picky individual, you just get what you pay for. The guy is also helpful unlike other companies. I personally emailed more then twice him been the owner responds back.
09-11-2003, 02:29 AM
#33
Hmm. Sounds like that's meant for me since I posted this thread, but I'll hope it wasn't (I didn't complain about the price, but questioned the power difference - Cattman only got 18fwhp peak w/new pipe+headers as opposed to factory pipe+headers - that's close to the numbers set out by pipe alone IIRC).
We'll see how lowmaxima does... at this point, I've decided it's time to relax a little with the funds (I've spent a total equal to about $12k US since April of 2002 on my car, not to mention time... but it's paid off).
We'll see how lowmaxima does... at this point, I've decided it's time to relax a little with the funds (I've spent a total equal to about $12k US since April of 2002 on my car, not to mention time... but it's paid off
).
Originally Posted by Mad-MAX_SE
If you don't want to save up your money for it, because you don't think it's worth the money, then why post in the first place? if you don't like the price of something, yet have no intention of buying it in the first place, just STFU and let those of us who know quality do what we got to do to get it without ****ing off the people that are providing us with something new and innovative.
09-11-2003, 04:46 PM
#34
Jer that wasn't meant for you at all, it was more of a general statement to those who complain all the damn time about there not being enough vendors for the maxima community, when it's those biatches who drive them away complaining all the time about how they think a price is too high. you know, all i can say to that is it's exspensive to be exclusive.
-George
-George
09-11-2003, 05:28 PM
#35
Originally Posted by Mad-MAX_SE
Jer that wasn't meant for you at all, it was more of a general statement to those who complain all the damn time about there not being enough vendors for the maxima community, when it's those biatches who drive them away complaining all the time about how they think a price is too high. you know, all i can say to that is it's exspensive to be exclusive.
-George
-George
09-12-2003, 06:10 PM
#37
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
I think I should make that my new SIG.
Jer: Glad to be of some assistance, and believe me you made tha right choice picking the max over some civic
ps: Ice,
if at all possible end it with something like 
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