Craig Mack

Well, since we have no lag since our s/c's run off the engine belts, when you say "lag", this just means power input wise from the FMIC, right? The instant s/c power will still be there, it will just take a second for the full effects of the FMIC to kick in, right?

With a well done-up FMIC, does anyone have any predictions of the gains for people at 10psi? And, does the intercooler deliver its power per-rpm as the SC boost rises, or is it more instantaneous?

slimer

iTrader: (13)

i just picked up my "new" awic last nite. there's less IC piping, but it fits where you're battery is so you have to relocate it to the trunk. also there is a water pump and a heat exchanger that fits in front of the radiator to cool the water off (it looks like you have a fmic) any ?s

steve

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

For a SC, a pressure drop from a FMIC/tubing will cause less boost at all RPM, however cooling the intake charge effectively can compensate/out-weigh the loss.

Any restriction or pressure drop of the intake charge will delay/reduce the power you have available at any RPM. Your SC can't compensate for a pressure drop, ie can only go with XXXX size pulley, so you need to balance the cooling effect vs. pressure drop.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

How much? Any pics?

Also, does it have a reservior for storing water?

Stephen Max

iTrader: (59)

Lag in a supercharger system is due to the compressibility of the air inside the intake tract. Lag in a turbocharger system is due mostly to the time it takes to spool the compressor rotor up to speed after going WOT, but also includes the compressibility of the intake air.

So if you increase the amount of air volume between the compressor and the throttle body, you are going to increase the lag time because it takes more time for the pressure wave to travel from the compressor to the throttle. But it may not be too noticeable in a SC system unless you go to a really oversized intercooler and excessive boost pipe diameters.

The ATI Procharger website claims gains of around 50-100% more power with an intercooled supercharger system compared to 25-40% for a non-intercooled system. They don't say what parameters those numbers are based on. I would take it as typical marketing-speak, but it is true that the higher your boost pressure the more gains you can realize from a well designed intercooler and piping system.

slimer

iTrader: (13)

yes it does

i will take pics, but i dont want to host them on cardomain. i will try and find a different sever this week.

steve

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Cool thanks.

Craig Mack

I've been talking about intercoolers with an org member via email. He has a lot of great stuff to say. Here is the latest email:


So, It is my understanding that I will yeild some meaty power/tq that is USEABLE, not just peak #'s. Like, 30hp/tq @3000rpm and 40+hp/tq by redline. I'm probubly going to go with a 21L x 8h x 3.5w spearco intercooler core for $600. Total cost will be around $1000 for a painted kit.

It seems that us guys running 3.125+ pullies could see huge gains from intercooling. With all this potential power, i'm surprised it's so rare.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

I don't think that is going to happen Craig, but I would LIKE to be wrong.

Playing with a TURBO calculator(http://www.turbofast.com.au/tfcalc.html), which should be optimistic compared to a SC I get:

3000rpm, 75F(~24C), 4psi(guess?)
-------------------------------
w/o IC 120hp/211tq
w/IC 121hp/213tq

6400rpm, 75F(~24C), 10psi
-------------------------------
w/o IC 306hp/251tq
w/IC 338hp/277tq

So, at PEAK you may get ~32hp, but DEFINITELY not around 3000rpm.

Craig Mack

IceY2k1, ****.....I hope your wrong too. Those numbers arent very motivating at all, definately not worth the $1000. Other inputs?

BTW, I only see ~2-3psi at 3000rpm.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Me too, however I tried playing with the ambient air temperature, ie 75F vs. 100F, for both intercooled and non-intercooled power, but there wasn't a change. I didn't like that. Also, I played with the air-to-air and air-to-water option and didn't like what it told me either. However, for the air-to-water, it did say that if the coolant reached the same temperature as the ambient air, that the peformance improvement would be null. That makes sense.


Ok...however the lower the boost, the less heating of the air and a decreased effect the intercooler is going to make.

DA-MAX

iTrader: (10)

didn't Mardi run some type of AWIC at one time??(or was that just one of his past plans)

Craig Mack

I think mardi was going to run a FMIC, i'm not sure he ever got around to it though. However, he was very optimistic about the gains it would bring, much more then Mr. Negitive....I mean IceY2k1

DA-MAX

iTrader: (10)

but yeah he was pretty optomistic about it...besides him there were at least 2 other FMIC equipped SC Max's I knew of. also I30 Krab was running an AWIC with his SC, but good luck contacting him...never see him around. his situation would be perfect since you both live in pretty humid climates(although LV is a little drier probably)

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Don't let me p!ss on your $1K parade with such minor things as calculations vs. he said/she said XXXXhp BS.

Craig Mack

Craig Mack

Tom dropped an email to Spearco regarding shipment, so as soon as he gets a reply its pretty much a done deal. I could really use all the serious feedback from you guys as possible. If IceY2k1 is correct, then the gains are not even close to being worth it IMO. I mean, 1hp/tq at 2-4psi!? What the f#ck?? I would really expect much more gains for how amazingly hot the compressor gets under operation. Theres gotta be more to this story....Ejj....Stephen....Mardi....Jeffy.....are you out there?

nismology

iTrader: (8)

Maybe you should do it anyway, but not for the extra power. Just so you can upgrade to a 2.XX pulley without detonating.

Edit: Without resorting to Aquamist or AWIC.

Craig Mack

Well, since the intercooler takes away a little boost, i'll probubly be running around 9psi if I intercooled. So that means I could probubly run a 3.00" pulley, on stock injectors, get 10-11psi, and call it a safe day. But then, my blower has many miles on it, and the added stress is only going to kill it faster. Besides, while 2 extra peak psi is cool, it's still not exactly the type of power I was hoping for with the FMIC.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Craig,

First, I would by the intercooler just for engine reliability sake. Second, you sound like a PERFECT canidate for a NX wet kit.

I mean all you about is torque this and torque that. You aren't going to get more of a torque boost then a wet shot. Plus, your fuel injectors are about tapped, but a wet kit doesn't care.

$1K on an intercooler for 30whp at peak or 100ft-lbs of torque at 3K for about the same with all the necessary goodies you'll need.

ejj

iTrader: (5)

Craigy -

The gains from the intercooler are going to be proportional to the power that you're gaining from the SC. If you're only adding 25hp at 2psi (for example), you're never going to be able to add 30 on-top of that. However, at the redline if you've added 100+, then 30 sounds reasonable.

Most importantly, as has been mentioned, the intercooler is a great safe-net. It will allow you to boost (more) without fear of doing damage to the engine.

Craig Mack

So would you say I could run the 3.0, maybe even 2.87 pulley on stock injectors/engine safely with an intercooler? I know tuning is going to yeild me big gains as well, so with an intercooler tuning, and a smaller pulley it should be a beast. Becuase from what i've gathered, the smaller pulley/extra psi should magnify the amount of power the FMIC is making.

I want to spend a special shout out to IceY2k1 for raining on my parade.

slimer

iTrader: (13)

furbiss112 (ferhan) is the guy that i got my setup from, still workin on pics.

has anyone reconsidered underdriving the blower with a udp?

Craig Mack

IceY2k1, question about your calculations: At 4psi you only have 120hp and 211tq. Then, at 10psi, just 6 more psi, the hp jumps to 306. That's almost 200hp, yet the torque only goes to 251, only 40 more tq. What's up with that?? It also just seems too generic to expect a calculator to tell you what power gains the FMIC will yeild for your specific car. I mean, wouldn't engine size, n/a power output, mods, boost PSI, ect. all come into play?

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Craig...PLEASE go to the link I provided. It takes engine size, boost, efficiency of TC and IC, and *supposedly* air temperature into account.

Also, I eyeballed one of Kevs' final SC graphs at ~11psi, which had around 115hp/195tq@3000rpm and 301.9hp/255.1tq. However, the hp looks like it actually peaked around 280hp, but had a spike to 301.9hp.

Last, just because you add an intercooler and the pressure drop makes you have less PEAK boost, does NOT mean you can run more boost on your stock injectors!!! A cooler intake charge allows you to run more boost without experiencing detonation, however the cooler, ie more dense, your intake charge is, the MORE FUEL you'll need for the same A/F ratio. However, you guys tend to run a richer A/F ratio to combat detonation, ie lower EGTs, from the increased intake temperatures. Now with an intercooler, you *SHOULD* be able to run a higher A/F ratio, which means less fuel. Fine tuning and a knock monitor would be necessary to lean out the mixture enough though.

AllGo

iTrader: (1)

Is this calculation for a fmic?
If so I had much better results than these when I was non-intercooled at ~11psi. I had 326fwhp and 270fwtq at 6500rpm. Also how is this calculator going to accomodate driveline loss and are these numbers bhp or whp #'s? Also I hate to brag about the efficiency of the VQ but most engines don't yield an additional 150hp at the wheels with ~11psi of boost. So for the maxima/VQ boosted further cooling the charge temp with a fmic will put the s/c guys at roughly the same level of the turbo guys running the same amount of boost albeit the torque #'s won't be quite there. That said the fuel will definitely be an issue with stock injectors and you could possibly and leaner mix towards 13:1 would work but detonation would definitely be at bay even with a higher boost level. I would just finish by saying this calculator is not going to give real world results, I have spoke with many people who have built hundreds of turbo and s/c kits and their consensus is that relative boost levels will yield very close to the same hp figures when equally intercooled. I would go onto saying that intercooler plumbing and efficiency is not taken into account with this calculator. So I still would do this upgrade from Craig's perspective IMHO of course.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

THEORETICAL flywheel.

Point being....3000rpm claim vs. 6400rpm claim wasn't realistic. Doesn't matter drivetrain or whp, calculator shows you aren't going to get 30whp by 3000rpm simply from an IC.

IC efficiency and SC/TC efficiency ARE taken into account, but pressure drop for the piping isn't as far as I can tell.

I too think Craig should go with an IC.

ejj

iTrader: (5)

You'll still need fuel upgrades to up the boost, but now you'll be able to do so more efficently. When you get up into 12+ psi, you're generating so much heat, you have to be crazy rich to protect the engine. With an IC, you won't have to worry about that, but you'll still need enough fuel for 12psi.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Much better said.

Craig Mack

Stephen Max......

Stephen Max

iTrader: (59)

Huh? Wha? Somebody say my name?

Craig Mack

I wanted to know what you thought. MardigrasMax and the quoted email said around 40-50whp gains, and IceY2k1 say more around 30 peak. Please enlighten me with your opinion, Stephen.

Stephen Max

iTrader: (59)

Well, since you asked so nicely.

One thing about intercoolers on SC'ed cars is that you have to be very careful to make your installation as loss-free as possible so that you don't lose precious boost pressure. That means carefully choosing an intercooler with as low a pressure drop at your expected flow rate as possible. I think the best intercooler for SC application is one that has many rows of short vertical tubes, rather than a few rows of long horizontal tubes like what seems to be the fashion with the turbo'd guys. Sx7r's intercooler is what I'm talking about being good for SC's, if you can find his site. Also, you want to have as few 90 degree turns as possible, and you want smooth, gradual transitions between pipes of different diameters.

Once you have a good intercooler installation, having the cooler intake air only helps you if you dyno-tune to take advantage of it. You can't just slap on an intercooler and expect to see immediate gains. For one thing, the denser air may cause your engine to run too lean. Also the drop in boost should be made up for with a smaller pulley.

Now here is the sticky part. If the pressure drop through the intercooler is too great, then the gain in density ratio is negated by the drop in pressure ratio.

If you run a smaller pulley you move farther away from the efficiency island for the blower, so you heat the air up more - not just from compressing the air but because of the decreased thermal efficiency. So you can end up chasing your tail and experience no gains or even loss in power from an intercooler setup that is sloppily put together.

I like the looks of a FMIC, so that is probably what I will eventually do, but the pipe routing issues are kind of tricky with where the blower sits on our engine.

Well, that's all for now, gotta run.

Craig Mack

Thanks, Stephen. The Spearco intercooler we'd use has the horizontal tubing, but the effective difference between horizontal and the verticle tubed cores should be nominal.

I guess theres absolutely nothing that one can do to add mid range power to the S/C system other than nitrous. It seems every mod is made for "higher rpm" "peak" power, which is gheyer for real world driving.

mtcookson

iTrader: (2)

the terms intercooler and aftercooler are getting waaayyy mixed up. an aftercooler is what you guys would be running and just about 99.999% of all boosted vehicles out there (street vehicles that is). an aftercooler is just that, it cools the air charge after it is heated up by compression. an intercooler is used when running a two stage setup i.e. having a turbo hooked up to your exhaust and running the compressed air to the turbine of another turbo then running that compressed air to the intake. intercoolers are used in very exotic race cars and a lot of old WWII era airplanes.

also, the true point of an aftercooler is to turn up the boost. granted you will see gains in power by adding one if your s/c or turbo is making a lot of heat but they are really made to turn up the boost. say on my turbo for instance. it's the stock T3 out of the 84-86 300zx. non-aftercooled the Z31 guys say they are limited to about 10 psi because they start making a lot of heat by then and it would start to detonate if it were raised. with an aftercooler i can run it up to about 14-15 psi since the air is much cooler with lesser chances of detonation. so really, an aftercooler is good if you are planning on turning up the boost and want to prevent detonation or you are making a lot of heat at your current boost setting and have to run it pretty rich to keep from detonating.

an air to air aftercooler is about the best choice for a daily driven car. the air to water aftercoolers are really only useful in dragraces where you have short bursts using high boost. the water, like someone else said on here, will eventually get very hot and end up being less effective than an air to air aftercooler therefore making it very pointless to use on a daily driver. if you really want to cool down the air say for a drag race you can hook up a co2 system to spray the aftercooler before the run. i believe there was a very good article about aftercoolers and cooling them down using water sprayers posted in this forum. basically you don't gain much by trying to cool down your aftercooler while boosting since it's already hot but if you cool it off before you boost you will have much colder air going into your intake. i believe that's the basic idea of what the guy was trying to say but you should read the full article to really get his point. http://www.autospeed.com/cms/article.html?&A=0527

Craig Mack

The FMIC will cool the air charge, thus greatly decreasing the chance of detonation, but it still won't allow me to run more boost on my stock injectors. Right? In other words, FMIC doesn't = more boost b/c the stock injectors can only take so much psi anyways, so in that regards it's pointless.... How much boost do you guys think is safe to run on them? (& does FMIC make a difference?)

mtcookson

iTrader: (2)

yeah, your air charge will be much cooler decreasing the chances of detonation and you should gain some power also. if your injectors are at their max then you won't be able to up the boost at all.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

It has been said a few times already, but a cooler intake charge will allow you to stop wasting fuel trying to keep combustion temps down and INSTEAD you'll be using that fuel to make power, SAFELY.

You can't go wrong with a properly sized IC and I think you've reached the point of no return. Get the 370cc(340cc?) 300Z injectors and the IC together, then get the JWT ECU as soon as you can.

What is your ULTIMATE whp goal? You keep saying 30whp this and 40whp that, so NOW is the time to do it right and bite the bullet IMO. You have about maxed out your current setup and should decide what you ultimate goals are. Either an IC OR bigger injectors will give you a little more, but if you get both, you'll really jump to the next level and make the gains worthwhile. Otherwise, you'd better be prepared to do an engine swap soon.

I'd like someone else to define "safe" in regards to your question about how much boost can stock injectors support. IMO, running 80+psi of fuel pressure is risky, but people are running much higher.

Craig Mack

Is there ANY reason why you guys could think that an AWIC would give much better gains then an FMIC? Theres obviously MUCH less piping....it seems like a much simpler "direct shot" of power into the engine...I just ask becuase everyone is on the FMIC bangwagon.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Call up Vortech, 805-247-0226(old number?), and see what they say about your setup and their "aftercooler" being a match.