ilumo

Like the subject says, does anyone have an INTERCOOLED S/C setup here? I have read about a few in a magazine, and saw some VERY nice HP gains using a moderately sized one. Does anyone here have personal experience, or know of the potential gains with an intercooler? if so, can you let me know the setup, and maybe before and after differences... and also, will getting a HUGE intercooler benefit much more than a smaller one at lets say... 10-13 PSI? Thanks

maximase86

iTrader: (24)

Quite honestly, getting an intercooler for an S/C is a bad idea. With an intercooler, you will no doubt cool the charge, but you will loost boost because the S/C doesn't build boost like a turbo. From what I heard, people who actually did use an intercooler ended up slower. Some use aftercoolers which seem to work alright. The other idea is to go with water injection or something to that effect.

S

DAVE Sz

iTrader: (2)

I know someone who is getting an AWIC installed with his V2.

maximase86

iTrader: (24)

Should have em dyno it to show the gains. I've heard AWIC will actually do pretty good....but is a tad bit costly however.

S

mtcookson

iTrader: (2)

grr... intercooler and aftercooler (the way everyone is using the terms) are the same thing.

an aftercooler is actually what you are using when you put the unit between the boost source and the intake since it cools the charge after the compression. an intercooler cools the charge of air between two compressors (very rare setup). i believe what you are thinking of is a air to water setup compared to an air to air setup.

air to water uses water to cool down the compressed air. it can cool the air down better than an air to air unit but if i remember correctly you have to refill the water reservoir often. some please correct me if i'm wrong. i haven't looked into air to water units that much.

as for the air to air units i think if you get the right one you will increase hp whether you're supercharged or turbocharged. both ways you are compressing air and compressed air is very hot so you need a way of cooling it down. an air to air unit should cool it down plenty for a street driven vehicle. if you get a properly sized aftercooler for your setup you should see gains in horsepower. also, i believe i read somewhere that really, the biggest reason for aftercooling is to actually cool down the air to be able to turn up the boost. makes tons of sense since on my turbo setup i can only run about 10 psi safely non-aftercooled and up to 15 aftercooler.

Stephen Max

iTrader: (59)

You're right. The reason intercoolers are called that is because Volvo incorrectly used the term when marketing the first oem aftercooled turbo car back in the 70's, I think. So people got used to calling an aftercooler an intercooler. Then compounding the confusion, Vortech strictly adheres to the correct term 'aftercooler', but all they sell is the air-to-water kind, so people associate aftercooler with an AW setup.

But back to the question at hand. There are a couple of reasons why an intercooler (if you will excuse the incorrect usage of the term) is not as important in a SC system as in a TC setup. Turbochargers heat up the charge air more than superchargers for two reasons: 1) the turbo compressor runs at a much higher temperature than the SC blower because of its proximity to the extremely hot turbine, and 2) area under the power curve. More power developed equals more heat input into the engine. Since the TC achieves boost so much earlier than a SC, the amount of heated air entering the engine is significantly increased, and the combustion chamber temperatures have much more time to build up to dangerous levels. With a centrifugal SC, the boost develops so slowly that really it is only the last 500-1000 rpm or so that has any significant heat input. That's why SC'ed folks can easily run 10 psi max boost without any charge air cooling, but the TC'ed people would be roasting engines left and right running an unintercooled setup at 10 psi.

For a centrifugal supercharger, if you are running at a certain level of boost and not experiencing any detonation, then adding an intercooler will result in a loss of power. Any gain in power from a slightly denser air charge will be more than offset by the loss in boost pressure, unless the intercooler is so well set up that the boost loss is negligible. So an intercooler should only be added as a means to achieve higher boost in a SC setup.

ilumo

Ok... thanks for the responses guys. Those replies mimic the thoughts that I was having... that having an intercooled setup with low boost is not needed, and that for higher boost, it would help, but unless the intercooler was efficient, the denser air would be offset by a loss in pressure. So that brings me to the question... How high of boost would an intercooled setup be needed at? THe article I read from HCI magazine showed a 2000 Maxima with the stillen kit running around 10 lbs of boost, in which afterhe put on a 6x8x2 intercooler, and gained nearly 40 hp to the wheels.
Also, another question for you guys... who here runs a V1 s/c... I know that most of the newer stillen kits use the V2... Is the only reason for that being its more quiet? Also, in the article, i saw they upgraded from the SC trim to the S trim, and gained another 30 hp. hmm? TIA

edit: all instances of intercooler in the post should be replaced with aftercooler

Stephen Max

iTrader: (59)

Was that 40 more hp just from adding the intercooler, or did they increase the boost, too? Do you have a reference? I'm interested in reading the article.

ilumo

when I get home tonight, I will try to get that article for you.. maybe even scan it tomorrow at work, if not, atleast get more info. but yes, thats why I am skeptical about people saying an intercooler will lower power. It has dyno charts and everything, but i am trying to remember if they upped the boost or not... I will get back to you on that one.

stephenlc

iTrader: (1)

Well people are not gettting the reccommended boost levels that Vortech states with the pulley they are using. I think with even more bends and intercooler you will be losing lots of boost, unless you run like 2 inch pulley.

ejj

iTrader: (5)

Anything smaller than a 3" pully and you start flirting with overspinning the blower. At 2" the thing would just sieze up.

Stephen Max tested the pressure at the outlet at the blower. He said that it wasn't producing near the boost that vortech claims it should be...so its not the bends in the system costing us boost.

Although you're right, adding more bends would only hurt.

ilumo

What supercharger are you talking about? i know alot of people run the SC trims around here, but then again, there are a few of us running the S-trims (which i hear have better flow,but louder)... And where do you get this info that at a 3" pulley you start to overspin the blower? How would the S/C goto the 20PSI that vortech states on their site if its going to start overspinning at only 12 pSI? Have multiple people tested the pressure at the outlet, or was that just stephen max... it could be a freak occurence? Did Stillen ever have a diff S/C in their setup other than the V2? and if so, why did they switch over to the SC? TIA

ejj

iTrader: (5)

I have a V2-SQ.

With a 6.25" crank pully (I think that's the diameter), 6750 redline (stock) and a 3" pully a V2's max impeller speed will be 50625, which is over the specified max RPM of 50,000. Vortech has said that there is _some_ headroom in that spec.

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/...pspeedv-2.html

Using the same stats with a V1 you get to 50188.58 RPM with a 2.9" pully.

http://www.vortechsuperchargers.com/...lcval=48515.63


That's a good question for Vortech.

I was going to, but couldn't find the right fitting. I don't know of anyone else who has.

They offered the V1. They switched to the V2. I assume just because it was the newer model.

ilumo

EJJ: Theres 2 versions of the V2-SQ on their site. which oen do you have, and which one comes with the stillens kits now? the V2-SQ or the V2-SQ SUPER quiet (which was what i though sq meant ?)
Also, I didn't know that the redline for the max was 6750, I thought it was more like 65xx. Well, I guess I'll have more headroom anyway, since i dont go up that high.
Another thing is... i've heard from a few sources that the V1 actually flows much better than the SC trims... THey might have gone with the helical spur cut for the V2's to reduce the whine from the S/C for better daily drivers. The V1 has the straight cut, and also, the impeller blade diameter is larger, which would mean more air going through per revolution right? I would like to verify this.. I currently have a V1, and will measure the blade length... can someone who has a V2 do that as well? Im interested to find out there differences.

ejj

iTrader: (5)

There are 2 models, the V2-SQ and the V2-SQ SC-Trim. I'm 99% sure the regular V2-SQ is what comes in the Stillen kit.

I thought it was 6750...maybe I'm wrong?

All that makes sense.

csnow

I read that article more than a year ago. I believe it was Steve Millen who upgraded a ( if memory serves correctly) 2k+ Maxima with an S trim blower and custom mounting bracket. I believe the tuning was done at XS Engineering in Huntington Beach, CA. They also added a larger radiator to deal with the overheating issues they were having from adding the bigger blower to the engine.

SirJBling

It's been not, by me and I think 2 others.


By the way this is "MAX'N OUT"

Ive been forced to use another IP address and email to be able to post again, it seems as though sombody banned me, if anyone knows about this or knows how to contact I would like to know who and why it was done, or why I have denied access.

But to answer the question, its worth it. Go back search my user name "max'n out" and you will find lots of good stuff.

csnow

Your name does not appear in the Ban Log.

ilumo

unfortunately I cannot donate yet, because that function is currently disabled? Maybe yo ucan do the search for me, and then refer me to the links, or maybe let us in on your setup configuration, and how much the intercooler helped. =]

ABK

Slimer got AWIC on his S/C 98 Max.

csnow

Check out the following link.

http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=276579

I posted several links in that thread to other threads that contain pictures and information for intercooled/aftercooled supercharged setups.

LatinMax

iTrader: (1)

I am in the process of doing the after cooler on my 2000 with 2.875" pulley V2. I should be complete this month and I will post info then.

ilumo

Very nice info on those threads... I guess it sums up that FMIC is going to be better for daily driving, while the AWIC has more potential, but has a lot higher maintenece... (Who wants to get a bucket of ice everytime you race) ... But why aren't more people doing the FMIC? Is it the cost? The custom work to make efficient piping? Or are they just skeptical that it will not work? If it wont, will some people please post some dynos of before and after intercooler setups. That is the only way I will believe it is not effective. I understand in a poorly designed setup, the intercooler will cool the air, but because of the maze of pipes, the boost will drop significantly... but still, the density of the air should still offset that drop in boost, no?

I will have a setup similar to this... actually, the same...
.. I realize that this is a lot more custom work that some will be willing to do(custom bumper mounts, hole in fenderwall for CAI, hole where washer fuild was, hole where battery was),.. so I am just researching some options...
I hope that with this piping, there will be minimal 90 degree bends, and since most of the piping is out in the open, that the air inside will have a longer exposure to ambient temps.
hmm... any opinions?

Mishap

I'd say mounting an FMIC to a S/C can be done in a matter of hours if you have welding equipment and plan well. That setup you showed there uses an awful lot of hose couplers along w/ pretty much destroying the bumper support. It also seems a bit oversized for a S/C application.

I think 2 180 degree bends, 3-4 90 degree bends, and a bit of straight pipe would be enough to cover the job. Standard muffler shop can probably pull it off in under 2 hours of labor if you use standard steel piping. Getting TIG welded aluminum would increase that cost considerably but it'd look very nice.

ilumo

if you wanta better look at the setup, heres a view of the passenger side:

and a better view of the driver side:


I dont think the bends are bad at all, compared to some of the other setups ive seen... As for the bumpers... I plan either welding a few bars of steel to connect the 2 pieces of the bumper together ,giving it some more rigidity. Either that ,or thread the bar and use some nuts to clamp it down.

mtcookson

iTrader: (2)

whever using those silicon bends just be sure not to run high boost... like 36 psi http://www.garagedynamics.com/mike/intake_aneurysm.mpg

SirJBling

Please contact me via email (SirJBling@yahoo.com) so we can try and figure out why my other name is not working.

SirJBling

Here is my webiste:http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/407837

check out the setup, and then come on back ask me what ever you would like and I will answer it.

stephenlc

iTrader: (1)

I don't think anyone will ever boost there max to 36 psi.

ilumo

36 psi.. hell no.. right now, im jsut aiming at either a 3.125 pulley or the 2.87 one....
heres the article from HCI. its a 2000 maxima with the Stillen kit with the SC Trim S/C. With 7 PSI and just the kit, they get 204 whp. (pathetic?)
With 10 psi boost and 6x8x2.5 intercooler, they get 256 hp.
Switching from sc to S trim S/C, they get 281 hp (same boost)
With additional Tuning they get to 293 hp

not too bad.... for 10 psi...

editL: THey do not say anything abotu exhaust mods... andthe only fuel mod is the addition of the vortech FMU. With a biggest exhuast, bigger HP gains are definately possible on the current setup.

DAVE Sz

iTrader: (2)

Isn't redline 6600 rpm? That's what I read before somewhere.

furbiss112

iTrader: (9)

with my setup, i was put out over 300hp with a awic and 7 psi of sc boost. i had just a regular v-2 sc trim. pics available at this site.

maxima.cardomain.com/id/sleepin99

it had almost no pressure drop. later.

Ferhan

stephenlc

iTrader: (1)

I am just wondering if you have ever dynoed your car? You have the only built maxima that is known. What size pulley are you running?

max'n out

You talking to me I assume? Yeah I dynoed it, it's beared around here somewhere..over 300 at the wheel with the 2.87. But the blower died, so to sell the car, i'm putting the 3.25 back on once it's rebuilt.

stephenlc

iTrader: (1)

I am talking to Ferhan!!!!

Max'n out, is your engine built also?

max'n out

Damn dude you get ****ed easy.

















Heaven forbid sombody makes a mistake, when you don't quote the person your talking to in a massive thread.

furbiss112

iTrader: (9)

dynoed before the built motor on 7 psi of boost. put out around 320hp to the wheels. this was on a stock motor. ran 13.2 at the track on stock 15 inch wheels. floored gas only after getting into second gear. sorry about the arguement guys. later.


Ferhan

stephenlc

iTrader: (1)

Have you gone to the track lately or are you going to dyno with built engine?

CiViC KiLLeR

Ferhan that is a sweet max but how much did that cost to get the motor built?

stephenlc

iTrader: (1)

He has sponsers, I wonder how much stuff he got at a discount or even free.