VQ30DES

I have a 2001 SE and I am eventually going to get the PFI turbo kit, and i was wondering which turbo would be better to get. The T4 or the 60-1. Obviously the 60-1 will spool a little later, but how much later? Also how much more power would i get out of the 60-1? Along with the kit i am also going to have a 3" exhaust which should help a little with spooling.

BigDogJonx

iTrader: (7)

T4 is more suited for the 3.0vq in my opinion. If you want crazy HP, then you go with the 60-1. But me personally, Im interested in having more power under the curve, not just a power curve after 4000rpm.

I have a T3/T4 H3trim and it begins spooling at 1500 and goes full by 2500rpm.

Dixit

PharoNDmist

iTrader: (4)

As well as VQ30DES
I'm also going to be going turbo in the spring and was considering the 60-1 or the t04e. Would the 60-1 spool really late for the Vq,Because my friend has a t4 60-1 on his 89 Merkur and it is full boost at 4k rpm's, on a 2.3 4cly? He told me the 60-1 would be good for the Max.

stephenlc

iTrader: (1)

We have really insufficient exhuast manifolds, there is too much piping, an incline 4 has the turbo really close to the exhaust so it spolls faster. Untill someone come up with a better manifold, our spool will be slower than it should be.

Julio

The T4 or the 60-1. Obviously the 60-1 will spool a little later, but how much later? Also how much more power would i get out of the 60-1?

A 60-1 is a t4. As far as spooling goes, you could easily have the 60-1 spool faster than a straight t4 by just getting one with a t3 turbine. You should perhaps read a little more into turbochargers to get a better understanding of them to make your decision. The more you learn, the more you can properly customize your setup to your needs.

PharoNDmist

iTrader: (4)

What would be the difference between a 60-1 with a t3 turbine vs. a 60-1 with a t4 turbine besides spooling speeds? Also at what rpm would a t3 60-1 & t4 60-1 spool at?

A 60-1 is a t4. As far as spooling goes, you could easily have the 60-1 spool faster than a straight t4 by just getting one with a t3 turbine.

Julio

[QUOTE=PharoNDmist]What would be the difference between a 60-1 with a t3 turbine vs. a 60-1 with a t4 turbine besides spooling speeds? Also at what rpm would a t3 60-1 & t4 60-1 spool at?


Well, traction would be a direct correlation to the spooling apect, but other things such as power is affected (much like having a smaller exhaust). I can't really say where they would spool as i dont have any personal experience.

subs1000w

it would also depend on the T3 and T4 turbine A/R's and wheel trim

a T4 .58A/R would probobly make a 60-1 spool faster than a T3 .84A/R but im not sure on that

mad-max98

iTrader: (2)

hey dixit when does it start chocking

BigDogJonx

iTrader: (7)

I have not seen it choke as of yet.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Kevs' Turbonetics single(compressor side only) BB 60-1 breaks 200+whp and starts climbing about 4250rpm, however that wasn't tuned and with bad plugs.

PharoNDmist

iTrader: (4)

Wouldn't that be considered to be a late spool up? Becuase by time the boost kicks in he would be hitting redline pretty fast. IceY2K1 is the 60-1 more suitable for highway racing or street racing. I know its for drag but in thoses 2 cases what would it mostly favor?

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Anything over 4000rpm would be IMO.

I'm no expert on T-series family, but I'd *GUESS* hwy unless you run nitrous like Kev does/can to spool it faster.

I haven't seen any Maximas dyno with a GT-series turbo, however I'd be willing to bet, you'd get quick spool and MORE then enough whp for stock internals with a GT30R or bigger. Just from theoretical calculations though. Dynos will be the definitive proof.

PharoNDmist

iTrader: (4)

Would you consider the t04e over the 60-1? I still trying to decide, because I want something that will spool up moderatly and give me mid range power and alot of top end power, Something I can use in the streets and on the highway and still putting out high hp #'s(over)350whp.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Sorry, but I don't "study" T-series, so I'm ignorant(read dumb) on what they can/can't do, however I'd say from what I've read here a T04e can do 350whp with the proper trim wheel and A/R housing. I suggest you play around with the web calculators on Ray Halls' website: http://www.turbofast.com.au/turbomap.html.

I'd only consider a GT turbo, so I haven't number crunched, but from playing with the calculators, a 60-1 would be near the surge line especially at lower RPM. A T04e would be my choice between the two. Not sure one what trim wheel is best EXACTLY, but a "50" looks good for 15psi and 370bhp. Also, a TS04 looks like a good match and I think Shadow is running that, so ask him.

Mishap

I'd love to drop a GT turbo in too but they cost as much as two basic T3/T4 turbos(which would be a fun setup btw). Once we get a built block and goes for 15psi maybe we'll consider it then.

60-1 BB w/ a T4 turbine is pushing the limits of fast spool. Looking at all the compiled data I have, you'll lose around 20ft-lb of torque @3500 if you combine it w/ a MEVI(Ramius) in comparison to a straight T3/T4E(Sadler's car). Looks like Ramius hits full spool just past 3700rpm and goes up from there whereas Sadler hits boost just below 3000. You also have to factor that Sadler wasn't running a boost controller so it starts bypassing exhaust right away compared to Ramius' boost controller holding the wastegate shut.

I wish I could plot Shadow's down in that range but the automatic downshifts if you floor it there. His 60-1 w/ T3 turbine spools a bit between a full T4/60-1 and a bit later than Sadler's. His automatic does allow him to spool off the line though.

I'll post up a comparo of all the different runs in a little while so you can compare all the dyno curves. Probably put it in a separate thread so it doesn't hijack yours.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

What does a basic T3/T4 cost? GT30R or GT35/40R is $1350-$1390 range. Probably less if you find the right eWhore. The quicker response, better reliability, and my biggest factor, better efficiency make it a hands down winner. However, the water coolant lines is a negative.

Sounds about right on the rpm and EBC help.

What is the wheel diameter on that 60-1(TO4S?)? I would be concerned about too big a difference between the T3 and the 60-1. The slip would outweigh the lower inertia of the T3, plus you'd choke up top and hurt engine VE. I wouldn't go any bigger then a T04e with a T3 and a 60-1 would be a better match with a T4 turbine.

AWESOME~! I know it's out there, we just need to keep it all in one place for reference.

Mishap

I believe his specs are...

Compressor: 60 trim wheel .70 A/R

Turbine: Stage 3 76 trim wheel .82 A/R

I haven't looked over his turbo in a while so this might be a little off.

That GT30R is still double the price of a T3/T04S. They have identical external dimensions though so dropping it into Shadow's car is essentially bolt on.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Do you know the wheel diameters?

Versus a non-BB T3/T04S, right? The Turbonetics BB upgrade is a few hundred more, right? Also, at least with the PFI kit, it's more money for the t4/60-1 option. No way would I skimp a few hundred on a Turbonetics single BB, when I could get the GT FULL BB CHRA.

All assuming you can get the PFI kit with a GT or withOUT a turbo, which I doubt.

PharoNDmist

iTrader: (4)

Thanks for the info guys

Mishap

The GT30R is double the price of a non BB T3/T04S but just a less than the Turbonetics T4/60-1 PFI specs. At that price point I would definitely take the GT30R. It's just for Shadow's car we paid for bigger injectors, e-Manage system and plenty of dyno time to make it all work for the price difference. The smaller turbine housing and larger compressor pretty much even out the difference at least in the low boost arena vs. the BB T4/60-1.

I'm pretty sure it would take a bit of work to make the GT30R fit a PFI setup. The T3 turbine housing + 4" inlet mean all the pipes connecting the turbo have to be redone. Better off just starting from scratch if you're dropping that kind of money on pipes just to chop them up.

The wheel sizes on Shadow's T3/T04S are:
Turbine:
Exducer: 2.229"
Major: 2.559"

Compressor:
Inducer: 2.324"
Major: 3.00"

Compared to the GT30R, the T3/T04S has the same size compressor housing and wheel (GT's efficiency is better of course). The T3 also has a slightly bigger turbine...the GT probably can get by w/ a smaller wheel here b/c of the BB and greater efficiency.

We also have a fully rebuildable turbo should we have any problems while prototyping and can drop in a GT30R in under an hour including tapping coolant lines.

BigDogJonx

iTrader: (7)

BTW, the GT30r does come in a standard T04E housing with has the standard 3" inlet instead of the 4" inlet. So It can easily be bolted onto the PFI kit since it still uses the T3 flange.

Dixit

Mishap

Oh yeah...forgot about that option. Think the turbine housing might be more of a problem though. Think the GT30R is supposed to work w/ T3 housings while PFI uses on-center T4 turbos. Not sure if the two can be adapted to fit w/ an adapter plate but it'll probably throw off the mounting slightly. Of course none of this would be that much of a problem for a person w/ their own welder.

BigDogJonx

iTrader: (7)

Well Ive seen the T4 turbo and the inlet on the turbine uses the standard t3/t4 flange

Dixit

Mishap

Doesn't look the same in this diagram.

The on center housing is definitely larger on the T4 turbine and the shape means the the turbo will sit 1-2" further left and against the IC pipe if you switch to a tangential turbine housing(w/o moving the feed pipe). T3's vary on their downpipe outlet (4 bolt for regular ones and 5 bolt for ones w/ internal wastegates but they all have the same inlet).

If you look at a PFI setup though, the 3" downpipe also won't work w/ the 2.5" outlet on the GT30R. You can run a reducer though to make the two fit. It's really not that bad to do the change but w/o the turbo, the PFI kit isn't really worth much and having to modify a kit takes almost as much as building one from scratch.

BigDogJonx

iTrader: (7)

According to Garret's catalog, it says the GT30r uses a standard T3 inlet flange and the outlet is a standard 4bolt flange. So to me that means it would bolt up almost perfect to a PFI kit. Ive seen Jaime's and Erik's, the flange is the same as my T3/T4 flange. Their outlets are also standard 4bolt flange.

Also you link takes me to turbonetics homepage.

Dixit

Mishap

My mistake on the link. I meant to show you the pictures.

T4 Diagram:


T3 Diagram:


T4 Flange w/o split inlet picture:


T3 Flange


As for the output side, I think the bolt pattern is similar but the T3 is smaller diameter. We had trouble fitting on Sadler's 2.5" DP b/c it was running too close to the bolt holes w/the angle we were working w/. There's no way to fit a 3" DP onto that flange which the T4 has no problem doing b/c the flange is significantly larger.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

That's what I was afraid of, however the GT35R(GT35/40R) should have the same flanges, right?

Mishap

GT35R according to cheapturbos has a T3 flange but I can't be sure in the picture.



If it does turn out to be a T4 it's still cocked over a couple inches the wrong way. That is a monstrous turbine stuffed into that housing. Looks like there's room for a 3" downpipe as well.

Either one requires modification to put onto a PFI kit but your average exhaust shop can do the mod in an hour or two. I'm not quite sure how to hook a 4" reducer in that short of an area to connect the MAF and a CAI but it just takes some ingenuity and grunt work once the turbo is in the car.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Actually, I was looking at the non-BB GT35 turbine dimensions, since that's what had the specs in the Garrett catalog. They look very close IMO to the T4 center discharge diagram you posted, but hard to tell/read really.

Any fitment issues would be minor with the T3/T4 or straigh T4 flanges plus PFI says they're willing to customize for different turbos. Probably just an issue of extra money for whatever flange style you want. Well worth it vs. having your average exhaust shop butcher it. I have connections in that area(Cattmans' y-pipe fabricator is local), so that's not a concern. Most don't have the custom route option, so modifying a PFI kit is a given.

A GT30/35R combination is what I'm planning, ie a GT30 compressor with a GT35 turbine. If it's not available as part of Garretts' "official line-up" by the time I'm ready to purchase, HKS will probably make a similar combination and the price difference isn't too bad.

turbo97SE

iTrader: (3)

Interesting conversation. I have had a number of conversations about this and there are arguments even within PFI as to which would be the best. I have tried the GT37 with no really decent results. The peak power was no better than my 60-1. The key here is that I tried it with a HUGE A/R of 1.06 which is waaayy too big!

For a decent street set up, I am inclined to agree with IceY2K1, if you have the money, this would be a very nice setup. A T4/60-1 vs T4/TO4E spools approx 300 rpm later given the same A/R. If you are on a budget, the T4 is the way to go.

Who cares about lag anyway? There are ways to get rid of lag, Nitrous and two-step ...

One last thing to take note of, at least for the GT turbo I tried, there were custom flanges on the outlet, and the center housing does not allow 360 degree clocking freedom. ... just something to be aware of.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

So, would PFI be able to accomodate a GT turbo if requested?

Would they allow a GT turbo option and integrate the flanges for the kit?

Or would this be purely up to us?

Any chance you have those dynos, so I could see them?

turbo97SE

iTrader: (3)

Erm ... I will have to go and dig them up. I was kind of disappointed with them to be honest with you and so never did make an official post on it. The A/R was ridiculously large, peak power was the same and boost actually came on a little later (because of A/R) ... again let me see if I can find them ... usually disguard stuff that doesn't work too well.

As far as GT turbo is concerned, absolutely! We have solved the custom flange issues but they ARE more expensive because they are custom vs standard ... well I say that cos I did this a loooonnng time ago, these flanges may have started to become available, but they weren't available even through Garrett/Precision at the time .... you'd think if they produced a turbo, they'd have flanges available for it right?

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Please do, I'd still like to see. That GT37 is still a journal bearing, I'd really liked to have seen a GT35R or GT35/40R on your car.

Was the compressor side wheel a 76mm or 82mm and the A/R a 0.54 or 0.70?

Also, that turbine A/R was a 1.12.

www.atpturbo.com offers a "t3t4 dropin" and a "standard GT" now, so I hope it wouldn't require too much.

VQ30DES

So from what im reading, if the 60-1 spools up only 300rpm's later than the T4, and is a $300 upgrade with the PFI kit why wouldn't you go for the 60-1. Its only 300 more rpms with some more top end. I think