dadiesel

I was at a car show this weekend and talked to a guy who had put an intercooler on his 00' Maxima. I was unaware that you could put an intercooler on and want to know what to buy in order to do so. Such as what kind of intercooler, where to get it, and what else I would need because i'm clueless.

JAY25

iTrader: (38)

If I was you Id say, "hey give me a ride?" I want to see if this intercooler improves performance

Prodeje79

I have read quite a few threads on this, but here is a little summary I have gathered.

Intercooling a SC is not as necessary as on a turbo. A turbo has much hotter air to deal with.

The affect of the cooling does not appear to compensate for the loss in psi?

I have yet to see dyno proof, but it appears that it may be a better idea to just get an aquamist kit instead? What is the advantage of getting a IC over aquamist and vice versa?

I guess there are some pending projects on queue to help prove this idea.

ilumo

If its so bad... why do companies, powerdyne, vortech, etc sell intercoolers for their S/Cs. Of course it would help... as long as you have an intercooler efficient enough to not lose too much boost pressure... but in any case, the engine will LOVE you for the cooler air, and in return it will reduce the likelyness of detonation, therefore you can run less fuel for a given amount of air (less stress on the fuel system). There is no dynos of disproving the use of an intercooler either..but from the previous threads, the people with FMICs have loved it.
So you CANT go wrong with getting an intercooler. Now price vs. performance, thats another story. It may not be the best bang for the buck, but what is when you get to higher hp levels?
If you are going with daily driver reliability/performance, go for a air to air intercooler, else if you want maximum efficiency, and just want tract use, go with what prod said, and go for a AWIC.
I hope to have this setup done in amonth or so, and hopefully give you guys some dynos.

JAY25

iTrader: (38)

Yes cooler air is excellent, it will help you gain torque. Vortech does not sell intercoolers. I have not seen any air to air intercoolers. I know they sell after coolers air to water coolers to cool the charge.


I drove an air to air intercooled max @11.5 PSI, that ride did not have any pep A non intercooled max w/CAI would have pulled on it. I have explained this to others and they wont listen. I am going to make some test runs with my 95 max non intercooled vs intercooled air to air SCers and you will see what I mean.

Prodeje79

I am interested to hear about this!

so.... it may be a better idea to just get an aquamist kit instead?
What is the advantage of getting a IC over aquamist and vice versa?

ilumo

well, none of the other places sell "intercoolers" either then. I mean "after"cooler when I say intercooler because thats just imprinted in my head from too many magazines and F+F . but cooling the air AFTER the compressor. And yes, vortech does sell those "intercoolers" and so does powerdyne. Ok.. please do make those comparisons... You must have a crappy intercooler thats leaking too much boost or something. because EVEN cooling the charge temp by 50 degrees should increase the air density to levels you can feel. Think about racing on a normal day in the spring vs a normal day in the winter. Which one would you be faster in?

Bags

iTrader: (3)

My question is about the pressure drop. With pipes and a effceint intercooler, I would guess a 2 - 3 PSI loss.

So let's say 2 PSI. On a "tuned" SC'd motor your talking ~25-40 WHP.

You "might" be able to recoupe that at 50 MPH, but at 0-20 your going to be at a bigger loss IMHO.

I may be incorrect in my thinking though. I am always willing to learn

JAY25

iTrader: (38)

thats correct. Pressure drop. While your blower is turning somone thats non intercooled will pull on you instantly. From there they will keep on pulling. You may catch up if you have that JWT ECU to take it to 7200RPM.

slimer

iTrader: (13)

yeah, but my awac is in line with the piping.

the loss with the extra piping is not there

just cool watery goodness

JAY25

iTrader: (38)

You dynoed yet?


This setup is ideal, runs straight to the TB without extra piping.

slimer

iTrader: (13)

im going either tuesday or wednesday

finishing up fuel delivery tonite and tomorrow

safc ii is in the mail

should have everything done by the middle of next week

track opens april 3, free nites from 6th-10th

slimer

iTrader: (13)

in case you haven seen the setup (sorry for old pics, new ones are coming)

ilumo

Where do you doubters get your information from? Do you just make it up or just base it on what you have personally experienced? You should read the article here: http://www.lextreme.com/icvsnic.htm

Very informative, and data extracted from a book ive heard many people praise. So according to these formulas... an INTERCOOLED supercharged setup, should BLOW a non intercooled setup out of the water. Assuming that the intercooler has adaqute efficency, and the volumetric efficencies of the engine/supercharger are good, then the pressure ratio of intercooled vs non intercooled will be 1.8 times less. So 10 psi of non intercooled boost will be the same as 6 psi of intercooled boost. So with that said, even losing a FEW lbs of boost, you would STILL beat a non intercooled setup. Now as you go UP in boost, the intake temps will get even HIGHER, which in turn will increase the efficency of the intercooler, and in turn the pressure ratio. So then each lb of intercooled boost will be worth even MORE than the non intercooled.
Of course, the results will be skewed by different vol efficiencys, BUT when it comes down to it, with scientific evidence, the intercooler should DEFINATELY help... and in most cases, beat the non intercooled setup.

Another plus is able to run MORE boost, with less chance of detonation.

for you lazy people who dont want to read, heres pictures/examples:

Bags

iTrader: (3)

I make some of it up as I go.. and sometimes I flip a coin. A quarter mostly, it's easier to hit with my thumb

Cool

I EDITED THE ABOVE POST

Now, with the 1 SC option availible to a maxima, can you say that the above applies


With scientific evidence AND using the proper intercooler and SC'r. 2 big things that could throw the WHOLE process out the window


Thanks for the link

Maybe you missed my post that said I am willing to learn.

And I agree 100% about intercoolers. If it is the correct one for your application. FROM what I have seen, the IC's on the SC'd cars are not that great. EXCEPT the SC'd IS300. He has 0 lag from it. But his setup was WELL designed.

sleepermaxima

iTrader: (2)

I have the kit from that car Jay25 drove (intercooled, 11.5 psi, slow). I would like to know where that line from the gauge connected to on the intake (if he noticed). From the junkyard erector set that I recieved in the mail I find it hard to believe that there was 11.5 psi in the manifold with a 2.8 pully. According to the SC FAQ sticky that pully should give 13PSI. Only 1.5lb loss? Is that possible?

Nearly every inch of that plumbing is going in the garbage... including that dinosaur of an intercooler.

The kit that I purchased is a terrible example of an AAIC IMO. Here's why:

1. From what I know, that car was not tuned. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
2. A torn coupling repaired with PACKING TAPE right before the compressor HAD to have been leaking air after the MAF... there were folds in the tape where it was in contact with another peice of coupling.
3. The intercooler came out of a 1980's Volvo and was coated with oil soaked dirt... a great insulator.
4. The charged intake path between the blower and the throttle body had at least 3 different diameters with a variance of over an inch.


I would like some decent examples of air-to-air IC'ed SC'ed maxes. I don't care which point it proves. I'm having custom plumbing fab'ed soon. So I have a decision to make in a couple weeks and I would like to know which way to go.


D

JAY25

iTrader: (38)

I did not mean to offend you if I did. Sorry. Why dont you wait and see what slimer dynoes and puts out at the track. That car did not need any tuning. It had a JWT ECU with 7K rev limiter. That car was heavily modded. I believe that crappy sh!tty azzz piping is what killed the poor car and that cheap intercooler. What I did not like about that kit is the intake pipe, runs across the top and down the center behind the radiator. Thats just such a bunch of crap. If you dont have the funds for that setup, just drop a CAI in the fender and do a normal cross over piping and call it the day. Mardigrasmax had a 2.62 pulley and no intercooler.

JAY25

iTrader: (38)

Relax dude, we are trying to help you guys out. I am more then sure the guy that had that air to air intercooler, that **** was strictly for show. I did say cooler air was excellent. But how many people here on the org have SCers with air to air intercoolers? one, and he just said he **** canned the piping. Not a happy camper.

sleepermaxima

iTrader: (2)

Absolutely no offense was taken Jay. I know you did not put that together and install it. You only removed it. I hold no loyalty to that kit; saying that it was weak does not make me worry about how it will work for my car.

I have no problems cutting my losses and moving on. I just wanted to shed some light on the ghetto SC kit I have.

I can handle the expense of replacing the plumbing, I have connections to some pretty gifted welders in the area Which means I'll get it done for pretty cheap. I can also get some powder coating done for cheap too. I should be fine.

But like I said before, if someone can produce some other examples I would be very intersted in hearing about them.

D

ilumo

Hey, was this bordaigas kit BTW? I remember he was selling his "intercooled" V2 setup, and it looked pretty nice. i was going to get it, but then just tried something else.

JAY, im relaxed... no problem. I just get irritated sometimes when people are so pessimistic, and just say stuff without backing it up with some proof. Just a simple, I've seen it not work, so it doesnt work. So I just took the liberty to show some science that it SHOULD work.
Now as for my setup, the piping should be GOOD, and hopefully, I can reap the benefits of the increased density. I dont see myself losing more than a lb or 2, so with the 2.87 I can hopefully run 11 - 13 lbs of ICed boost.
As for crappy installs, i can surely see where restrictive piping/ poor installation can KILL performance, which is probably where the numbers for the ICed S/Cs are coming from.

Prodeje79

I was trying to figure out who got Broiga's kit, no one would fess up.

This was the kit I remember reading about. The old volvo IC could be the problem. Any one have luck with a nice sperco on our sc kit, not AWAC.

I agree the physics are on your side ilumo, don't take this personally. An IC should improve results.

No one has provided successful proof of it working on our setup.... yet.

Stephen Max

iTrader: (59)

He did benefit from the cooling effect of a 35 shot of nitrous, though, and he had other precautions against detonation, like the J&S Safeguard.

I've thought long and hard about running an intercooler. (One reason I'd like to is in preparation for converting to a TC.) The main problem is running the intercooler piping from the SC with a minimum of boost reducing bends and diameter changes. I don't see an easy way to do it, because of the location of the blower outlet. I have an idea, but it's not easy and kind of radical.

In the example calculations ilumo provides, the pressure difference between an intercooled setup and a nonintercooled setup both producing 320 hp is 2.5 psi (there is an error in the last equation, the intercooled boost should be 4.7 psi, not 14.7 psi). It is very easy to lose more than 2.5 psi by adding an air to air intercooler if you're not very careful, thus eliminating your gains. Even if you lose only 1-1.5 psi through the intercooler, it is a cost effective way to gain power only if you increase your boost pressure in addition to adding the intercooler.

Stephen Max

iTrader: (59)

I could tell this was from one of Corky Bell's books without going to the link you provided. Bell's books are very informative and well written for the most part, but I've never seen a book so poorly proofread. You can find a math error on almost any page you look at. The result of the last equation should be 4.7 psi, not 14.7 psi.

JAY25

iTrader: (38)

If you want to go air to air intercooled go on ahead. What you say makes sense dropping down to a smaller pulley to compensate.


Heres my scoop on this thing. I dont know if you race, do test runs or run the car for fun. You guys know I do it all the time. With the Supercharger, it will boost intantly correct? Not full boost but the boost hits and is there. Say I am pushing 10PSI w/a 3.25 pulley. I am not going to hit 10PSI until after 6K. The SCer will build max boost if you take it to redline. Now add a intercooler in there, instead of hitting 10PSI at 6K now because of the intercooler you may hit it right at 6500RPMS. If your running the car every RPM counts. At least with the SCer. I know when my previous car was SCed shifting at exactly 6700RPMS was very important to squeeze every bit of boost on top end. Instead of spending the cash on a intercooler, you can stay with a 3.33 8 PSIpulley, a MEVI, 370s, JWT ECU and a CAI and you line up against my 10PSI except I wont have the JWT ECU. I promise you with that 72K RPM rev limiter you will smoke my azzz. You will be a very happy camper with that setup vice air to air intercooling. Even if I was pushing 11.5PSI, your 8 PSI will still walk me.

ilumo

haha.. yea, I should have pointed that out. Was just busy assuming the pics were correct when they blatently were not. But in any case, as your pressure goes up, the intercooler becomes more and more advantageous... so when you boost with a smaller pully, 10+ psi (where your IC efficiency is much higher), then you wont NEED to run a smaller pully to have more power.

And the comment about piping and pressure loss. Yes, you have to do some custom piping if you want good flow (I had to cut the firewall, relocate battery, etc), but as stated earlier, a good install will equal better power.

As for cost efficiency, that was never part of the debate. The debate was whether an IC is a good supplement to a SC. Which therotically SHOULD be a great asset to it, when properly configured. Also, depending on your skill as an installer, the setup can go extremely well for a minimal loss in pressure setup, or very poor for "brodaigas" chop shop pipe maze.

Stephen Max

iTrader: (59)

Married, two kids, one in college, the other will be in two years, mortgage, car payment, bills, bills, bills. Cost efficiency is very much in my picture, at least for the next 6-8 years. I shouldn't be fooling around with boosted mods at all, come to think of it.

sleepermaxima

iTrader: (2)

But I, for one, am certainly glad you are.

ilumo

I completely agree. Stephen is still ... when it comes to informative and well thought out posts..

sleepermaxima

iTrader: (2)

I really am on the fence as to which is better in general. I'm reading about pressure ratios and the like... I have not heard anything about the power that is robbed by running a smaller pulley.

=====
Let me pull some numbers out of my butt just to illustrate and example:

3.1 pulley yeilds 11 psi at the TB non intercooled.
2.87 pulley yeilds 11 psi at the TB intercooled.

pros:
non intercooled air temp at TB is 170 Deg F yeilding a less dense charge of air.
intercooled air temp at TB is 115 Deg F yeilding a more dense charge of air.

cons:
3.1 pulley spins the compressor wheel at 54000rpm taking away 50 bhp
2.87 pulley spins the compressor wheel at 61000rpm taking away 60 bhp

=====

It could be a wash. I don't know. I have no dyno charts to compare with. Like I said, those numbers I used are complete crap.

Intercooling will give a more dense charge so the 11psi will have more punch but that punch is being eroded by spinning the SC faster.

Does Vortech release the hp/tq used to spin the compressor at certain rpms?

If we had that plus some dynos of non intercooled max's with their pully size, max PSI after the TB and their intake temps I could make my own conclusion.

D

slimer

iTrader: (13)

i will post my dyno as soon as i get it.

steve

max'n out

So many people so many opinions, so many people that have theorys and no experience.

Ive done it.

I think i was one of the first 3 that all did it at once (at least thats known).

http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/407837

JAY25

iTrader: (38)

I just saw you had a air to air intercooler

Care to share your opinion/true facts about it?

what did you dyno at?

What did you run at the track?

Did you run any fast cars on the streets?

When you hit the gas pedal did it pin you to the seat from the cooler air been charged thru the intercooler?

Share some info with these guys since you had the setup. I know I have ran cars that have SCers with air to air intercoolers. Thats where I draw my facts from.

Prodeje79

I did a query and looked at max n outs threads: http://forums.maxima.org/search.php?searchid=110659

292hp @ less than 9psi of boost plus custom intercooler
http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=128996
In this thread he states that with the 3.25 pulley he lost 3 psi of boost, but he planned to get the 2.87 to compensate. "The car was tested for boost, by bypassing the intercooler and the car made just a little shy of 9 psi of boost on the 3.25 pulley and made 292 hp…Hence the attention grabbing title, But again sadly on the intercooler with boost drop down to 6psi it only made about 260ish(auto). "

Here is a dupe of the thread in 5th gen forum: http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=128993

Didn't you sell your setup? I did not find any results with the 2.87, but I will look for more threads.


Deac had a IC SC and sold it, here is a search on his threads: http://forums.maxima.org/search.php?...=110664&page=2

sleepermaxima

iTrader: (2)

Thanks for doing the legwork prodeje79.

I was on the fence but I think I'm slipping.

but on the other hand, 13PSI on a carboned-up motor will probably not last me long... hmmm... decisions decisions.

D

Prodeje79

I know what you are thinking man!

I have a 2.87 or 3.33. I really want to do that 2.87, but am worried about my boost level and SC overspinning when I am at 7200RPM on my JWT.

I just hit 100k and the compression test was 210, so I am afraid of that build up theory.

No one seems to provide feedback on using aqua mist instead of a front mount IC.

A IC setup is gonna run over $400 right?
Why not spend a little more to get the aquamist kit?

Sorry, I am new to this.

Stephen Max

iTrader: (59)

One good thing about water injection (along with preventing detonation) is that over time it removes carbon buildup from combustion chambers, reducing the chances for pre-ignition. Steam cleaning, if you will. We talk a lot about detonation, but it is pre-ignition we should really be worried about.

max'n out

Intercooler is worth it if done rite, let me address the things above.

Prodeje79: Your right all that happend, I gave up got the 2.87 got even worse problems, gave up on that got a 03 BMW M5, left the board and put it outta my mind. Problem was I still had the max with problems.

SO after clearing my head of it all, me and my NEW INSTALLER searched out the problem. Fixed THEM. Boost loss is now about 1 psi. TQ is way up., Engine is much smoother.

Prodeje79 2.87 nice pulley good power, snap went the bearings. That was within about 800 miles. NOW it can be done, you need to send the blower out to be upgraded for that duty by vortech, at the same time i say change out the impeller and get another psi outta that, along with making the blower stout.

Aquamist is a bad idea, and not as good as an intercooler. Water if it is not vaperized and goes into the combustion chamber will bypass the combusion, same thing as getting mosture in your motor when it sits to long, it sputers. Thats not to say you can't use it, it's a so so kinda thing.

Now for the above.

Ive dynoed all over the board, I put the 3.25 back on to sell the car and make it run safely. 297, 251...Not bad for a s/c and shifting at about 6600rpm.

Ive never tracked the max, and will prob never drag track any car...however I will be tracking my M5...and if i keep the max any longer I may road track that.

I run into fast cars all the time, I know to many people with them, name it viper, porche, lamborghini, other assorded moded cars and my m5 etc and so on. However I dont' get into street racing much. I know what all the cars can do and what your looking for is a comparison. I'll give you a wrap up below.

SO what does that leave. Car runs good soild, very fun. It does not pin you to the seat, theres just not enough tq and thats what you feel. BUT what does that mean that it's not fast? Not at all. A ferrari 360 does not pin me to the seat thats low on tq too, but it's not slow!!! Thats why turbo guys perticualy on forums talk ****, cuz they have that feeling, thats the feeling that my torquey M5 engine has...Bigger is better.

A Intercooler is a good thing to get so long as it's done right. With parts labor and all, it's gonna vary, I dont' know where you live or your guys rates, but looking at about 600-1200 with pipes and all.

What does it really do? Makes the engine run so much better, smoother, more toque althought not enough to pin you to the seat. Makes the motor last longer, fuel burns better. Common lose about 1 psi, which equals about 12 hp...comen gain about 10-20 hp. So why get it if i breaks even rite? You can go over 10 safely, and the engine woutn' be a question mark.

Hopefully this answers everything and so if i got long winded. If thers more I can tell you let me know here, or it's quicker to email me at : SirJBling@yahoo.com My other email can't be changed and I dont' check it often.

max'n out

Also I ment to tell you theres tons of people that intercool s/ced cars all the time, i got a buddy with a 350 z 10 psi intercooled 410 rwhp...I saw a viper s/ced intercooled over 800....thats nuts though. All kinds of things, on down to a neon. It's worth it.

But be prepared to spend money only if you plan to keep the car, cars get outta control no matter what and there is always somthing faster. Enjoy what you have enjoy what others have, theres always somethign better unless you got the best. Then sombody will knock you off.

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Cooler air = more power...NOBODY is disputing that, however you have to weigh the opportunity costs vs "gains" the IC will add.

Turbo cars have lag until full boost around 3000-4000rpm give or take, depending on the turbo. SCs have lag until redline, ie you don't hit max boost until redline.

Any IC and the tubing to/from that IC increases the intake tract volume that must be pressurized plus causes restriction in the airflow, which adds ADDITIONAL LAG whether you have a SC or TC. However, the big difference is that with the TC the boost controller will compensate by spinning the TC faster to make up for the lost airflow. So, by say 3000rpm, you're back to X-psi with a cooler, ie denser intake charge, for a TC. Plus, the TC boost controller can ramp up boost faster to compensate. On the SC, it's directly dependent on engine RPM at whatever pulley multiplier you're running. So, with a loss of psi from the IC on a SC, you're "behind" at ALL rpm and the ONLY way to compensate for the pressure loss and ADDITIONAL LAG is to drop down a pulley or two, which is only possible to a point due to impeller speed. A V1/V2 is limited to around 51K rpm impeller speed, therefore once you run a 2.XX" with the stock limiter or 3"(IIRC) with the 7200rpm limiter, you can't compensate for the boost loss or lag from the IC. Several people are running the smallest recommended pulley or even not recommended(like Kev/Mardi) withOUT an IC, so it's not ABSOLUTELY necessary. As I said either here or in another post, a SC IC can be beneficial, however you have to be VERY very careful designing a low pressure loss setup or you'll *LOSE* performance like some "home-made" jobs that I've heard about. With a TC, it's NOT that big a deal to lose 2, 3, or even 4psi from an oversized IC, since the TC can easily make it up. You don't have that luxury with a SC, so picking a low pressure drop IC and keeping the piping losses to a minimum is CRUCIAL.

IMO, unless you're currently running the smallest pulley possible, you'd be better off dropping down in pulley size then adding an IC, if your goal is just to make more power. If you live in hot climates, the best pump gas you can get is 91-craptane, and you EXPERIENCE detonation, then an IC may be a good idea. However, I'd suggest an Aquamist setup FIRST to see if it can solve those issues, a water/air aftercooler SECOND, and as a LAST resort a FMIC.

Vortech and other SC companies offer WATER-TO-AIR aftercoolers NOT air-to-air FMICs due to their low psi drop from lack of front-mount piping and due to their super high efficiency range, ie 85+%, or even greater then 100% with ice, so they can minimize the heat exchanger size. All that adds up to far less intake tract volume and piping losses. Yes, some SC companies probably offer air-to-air FMICs, however it's PRIMARILY for looks/costs and some better street driving capabilities. Yes, OTHER cars run air-to-air ICs with HIGHER airflow and higher max impeller limit SCs, so using that as the basis of whether you should run one on the V1/V2 isn't logical.

max'n out

You have no idea what lag is, thats very clear. Turbos also begin to create boost as you go up in teh rpm band, some s/c's can produce 10psi max boost at 2k rpm. It's all in what you pick. You clearly have your mind set i'm not going to attempt to change it...I'll leave you alone cuz only God knows it all.