crewchief264

My spearco is waiting to go on. I know that It'll make horspower,
I've just got done reading all the posts abou this and how everybody claims it loses power and you lose psi. Go figure, the only thing you may notice is lag! not a psi drop. Anyways an intercooler is good no matter how you figure. Anyways, I haven't seen any Turbo guys running without one! And it's not becuse the turbo puts in "hotter" air, maybe slightly warmer, te intake air is not near the turbo housing long enough, compared with a supercharer to heat the air like your saying. I would say they run intercoolers for one reason, to make more power and to be able to run more boost. the intercooler is a definate must for a 10psi s/c maxima. 10 to 1 comp and 10 psi boost is too much hot air. anyways I'll have the numbers to back this statement up soon.

Stephen Max

iTrader: (59)

That's the spirit! It's good to have an iconoclast around so we don't get too stuck in our ways. Or maybe to re-validate the conventional wisdom, as the case may be.

Did you read the post about the person who dynoed 290 hp without the intercooler and 260 hp with?

DA-MAX

iTrader: (10)

how do you figure that there is no pressure drop??

and can you explain this a little clearer ---->

cause its quite obvious "pure" exhaust gas is MUCH hotter then anything coming out of the SC, it not a minimal difference in temp if thats what you're implying


you're right...an intercooler will allow you to run more boost, but on a <10psi less SC setup is it worth it or even efficient??

Stephen Max

iTrader: (59)

The compressor of a turbocharger is bolted to the turbine housing. The turbo housing gets very hot, sometimes glowing, and there is a good conduction path for heat to soak into the blower housing. It gets much hotter than a supercharger housing which gets most of its heat from the engine oil circulating through it (in the case of our Vortech setups).

By the way, in case anybody is interested, I have thermocouples at the hose between the CAI and blower inlet and just before the throttle body of my supercharged engine, and I see a 25 F temp rise of intake air as it passes through the blower and charge air piping. I have seen the intake air get as hot as 175 F at around 10 psi, with an ambient of around 75 F. I'm thinking the intake temp may get up over 200 F from boosting on a hot day, so I would really like to see somebody put together an intercooled SC setup with minimal boost loss.

ilumo

hey, im trying to prove the usefullness of the IC on the Vq30de's as well! heh heh

The guy who dynoed with /without intercooler left out too many details. How do you "bypass" the intercooler to dyno with an existing intercooler piping setup? hrmm... and he never explained HOW he lost the boost. 3 psi seems way too much. And also, he never reported the 2.87 pulley results. So until he elaborates more, I think he is an incomplete reference.

Man, im itching to get this this done with!

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

The *REASON* why LOTS of turbo cars run an IC is because they can EASILY turn up the boost to compensate for the pressure drop of the IC vs. your SC which is limited by impeller speed and requires a "fun" pulley swap to get back to the SAME psi before.

Turbo cars and SC cars will both benefit from an IC, however don't compare apples-to-apples like that.

Also, you'd better RESEARCH what size IC would be optimal for the airflow you'll be running or you'll end up regretting it.

GOOOOOOOOOOOooood luck~! You're going to need it.

Mishap

Think it would be very easy to reinstall the factory SC crossover pipe after disconnecting the intercooler piping.

There is going to be pressure drop simply b/c of the ideal gas law. PV = nrt. Drop the temp on a specific amount of gas and it will condense leaving it at a smaller volume. There are also issues of how much drag on that air all those IC fins cause. Turbos don't lose boost b/c the wastegate is controlled by how much boost the engine actually sees. They can lag more as a large inefficient intercooler takes more time to pressurize.

Since the SC pushes a fixed amount of air per rpm, the reduced pressure and effects of drag there will probably be a slight hp loss. The cooling effects help some but the IC puts you in a better position to push higher boost and you're only a pulley change away. Non-IC SC cars may push a few more hp per pulley but the engine will begin to detonate before an IC version will.

crewchief264

Yea I read it. I think that was the guy who used a volvo intercooler????
if so then no wonder it had a psi drop, the intercooler looked like a radiator. and was about 2 inches wide maybe.

About the psi drop. there is no way you'll have a psi drop period!!!!!!

Why, you ask. For starters if you do have a drop then it is because you have leak somewhere. Now as for some other noticable psi change? You' will still make 10 psi if that is what you made before the intercoolerinstall . however you may notice a lag time, which is the time it takes to pressurize the longer tubes, ie... flow rate, that is why the car may not be as throttle reponsive as before. Kinda like the turbo lag thing, which in our supercharger cases is extreme lag, because I don't see boost till 25-3000 rpm. so the actual lag you'd notice will be negliable.

I know you' guys are talking about peppiness, bla blablahhhh. Look our cars are family sedans that we have now made into a really capable sleeper!!!! Our cars have 10:1 compression, and now we just put on a s/c and hey 6.5 psi is not enough, which really For me it is, but my used kit came with a 3.33 so here we are. I don't agree with everybody saying that our cars can handle a consistent 10 psi boost pressure. Something is gonna give, and I think based on my experience it will be either a head gasket, head (or bolt), or a valve. Now an intercooler doesn't change the amount psi but it will make 10 pounds of very hot psi air much cooler, which will help add to the efficiency of the engine, ie.. cooling the burn and making it much safer to run the higher psi, I really think the kit should come intercooled. O.k

Also in my plans next year is a 300zx tt head gasket or motor swap that is built for boost. it depends on money!

Now please give your thoughts??

crewchief264

Yes your right!!!! to really up psi to say 20 psi, you need to send your s/c in and have it swapped over to the type of compressor you want. I really plan on doing this if I rebuild my motor.

Not sure if your familiar with pro charger, but they have a very similar swap for their kits on lt-1's, My friend runs one, and is going to upgrade his s/c to a larger one that flows more air and by the way....

PRO CHARGERS COME WITH A DUAL AIR TO AIR INTERCOOLER SET UP IT IS REALLY KINDA COOL CHECK IT OUT HERE.

http://www.exoticperformanceplus.com/index.php

JAY25

iTrader: (38)

Us turbo folks are okay to run ICs and not see the loss your going to see. The Wastegate controls the boost. On a SCer the boost is controlled by rising RPMS. I own both SCer and Turbo, I guarantee you if you line up with a Mustang GT you wont catch him with that air to air ICer. By the time you hit 10PSI hell be long gone.


I wont go against your idea, go for it the skys the limit . See how it turns out and if your not happy drop a 3.0 pulley if not smaller.

max'n out

IVE DONE IT!!!!! It's been done. People forget people so quick when they have things fixed in there minds.

DA-MAX

iTrader: (10)

no pressure drop when using an IC...you are truly clueless and have no idea what you are tlaking about mainly because this makes no sense what so ever --->

...good luck with your setup.

ilumo

youve done it.. but why dont you tell us what conclusions you came to about the LEAK issue. im sure a lot of us want to know!

JeffesonM

iTrader: (5)

Our superchargers make max boost at redline. Boost is tied to engine speed. Theoretically if you had an engine you could rev to infinity, you could get infinite boost. But you can't, you must stop at 6700 RPM. So the longer it takes to start making boost, the less time you have to make boost, the less overall boost you're going to get.

JAY25

iTrader: (38)

I dont think he has any good conclusions. If he did he would have posted some info. He probably did it for show more then anything else.

jdmmax

iTrader: (6)

well i just fineshed my FMIC setup for my sc. im not happy with it at all. my car is in my garage and its going up on jack stands and im pulling the FMIC. after a marathon fabrication and install job wednesday night to thursday afternoon.

i think most of my problems are in air leaks. only way i was able to test my piping was stick tin cans into the silicone hoses. tighten it down and attaches a brass fiting and presurized the pipe with a leak down tester. spray the welds with water/soap. i chased leaks for about 3 hours.
some of the coplers were on slightly bend sections so im guessing that there is not a complete seal in those areas. all in all it was a head ache. im gonna wait a little longer and redo it and try again or i might just can the FMIC and get a air to water.

nismology

iTrader: (8)

Or just get Aquamist...

Stephen Max

iTrader: (59)

Just a few quick comments.

1. Anytime you have a fluid (in our case, air) flowing through a pipe, you have frictional flow losses. This results in a pressure drop in the fluid from the time it leaves the pump (the blower) to when it gets to its destination (the engine). The most efficient pipeline is a straight pipe with a diameter large enough so that the flow stays below the transition from laminar to turbulent flow. Factors that increase pressure losses are increased flowrate, increased flow path length, sudden changes in pipe diameter, bends (especially sharp 90 degree bends), irregularly shaped obstructions in the flow path (fins and such). Installing an intercooler introduces just about all these factors.

2. After looking at pictures of max'n out's setup, I think the reasons he suffered such a hit in boost pressure is due to a diameter reduction and the three or four 90 degree bends before entering the intercooler. Then there are more bends involved leaving the intercooler. This goes back to what I said in another thread about it being difficult to have an efficient FMIC setup with the Stillen SC kit because of where the blower is situated.

jdmmax

iTrader: (6)

how much boost did he lose. im seeing right now at most is .45 bar in secound. .1 in first and the car boggs@4200 rpm this is at WOT.

max'n out

ahhhhhhhhh yeaaaaaaah ok. I'm sorry I don't stay at home all day clued to my email waiting to help you ****ers.


Heres the info anyway...I hope this helps the guy that wants to do it, and knows he doesn't know it all, unlike so many of you who run 6's.


Problems I had was caused by bad installation. All has been fixed, boost loss is about 1 psi. Tq went way up, with the intercooler, engine runs smoother and better and will last longer.

2nd the reason turbo people think they dont' lose boost because the wastegate regulates boost, is cuz once you select the boost it is to make, your good to go...so it's pumping it up just the same as changing the pully on a supercharger.


I wish you all luck, and hope someday God can know as much as of you know from reading a forum.

Good luck, best wishes, good motering. See ya on the highway.

jdmmax

iTrader: (6)

max'n out. can you tell me where exacly your leaks if any were????? i can live with a 1 psi lose i need more time on the ic piping. but for right now. i need to pull it out and take my time fabricating the piping.

max'n out

Around the complings for the outlet of the pressure pipe, outta the intercooler and the middle of the run to the t.b., not huge leaks that where clear, basically the couplings had been slipping when the bov kicked and you couldn't really see it. Till one day it was clear.

Stephen Max

iTrader: (59)

So you worked out your boost loss problems? I'm happy for you, bud. But the two or three posts you posted earlier didn't really tell us anything, so what conclusions were we supposed to draw? We're all here to learn, and it's best if we learn from each other. No one thinks he knows it all.

Anyway, did you do any rerouting of the IC piping, or was the boost loss only due to leaks?

Also, have you dynoed since fixing the leaks? Got any hard numbers?

max'n out

Yeah I worked it out. If your unhapppy with my post and what more specfic info, ask specfic questions don't go off. Lotta people act like they know it all.

No rerouting. All leaks, bad wireing of the afc, little things like that, that are hard to track. Acually if you go read my post in the thread where the guy want's to intercool is 01, it's more clear because the guy was nicer and not being a *******.
297,251 @6600rpms w the 3.25

By the way intercoolers on superchargers are very very very very very very very very very comon.

crewchief264

I'm glad someone finnally did the fmic, could you send me some pics of your set-up? By the way I didn't mean to come off as a know it all I've just gotten tired of everybody on here saying that a fmic on a supercharger is such a waste! Plus I really wanted to hear some of their reasoning, and all that frictional loss talk, and what not??? I understand the theories, but I don't really think you could really tell that is what is causing the loss.

max'n out

It's really not even a finally thing, it's been done by like me and 3-4 other guys on here, and I think severl others, and it's done millon of times on other s/ced vehicles. Not to mention mines been on close to 2 years. I think. Here is my webpage it has some pics and info, if you want more feel free to email me....http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/..............and email....sirjbling@yahoo.com

Stephen Max

iTrader: (59)

Sorry, I missed your post in the other thread where you gave specifics.

So you gained back all but 1 psi by fixing boost leaks? That's pretty good, considering how many turns your piping makes. Actually, it's excellent.

So you didn't have the 2.87" pulley on after you fixed your leaks? That's too bad, it would have been useful to see what power you can make using a pulley that can take advantage of the intercooler. An intercooler isn't needed with a 3.25" pulley.

Prodeje79

I think that if you IC, you should get a smaller pulley.

I think I am now afraid to use my 2.87 pulley that I will have a raised 7200RPM.

I already have a 3.33 or I could trade ya :>

I think I want one step smaller or so, 3.25 or 3.00.

ilumo

Why are you afraid of 2.87? insufficient fuel? temp too high? valve float? I have a 3.25 if you are interested...

Prodeje79

Well my main concern is too much boost and over spinning the SC.

I have 370s, JWT 370 SC program, and the WAlbro.

If people see around 13PSI at 6800RPM, what will I see at 7200rpm?

If people are close to overspinning the V2 SC at 6800rpm, will I be over spinning at 7200rpm. I guess 400RPM does not seen THAT much more?

I guess IanS is running the 2.87 now without problems and he has about the same setup. I wonder what his RPM limit is and when he shifts.

Any opinions on the smallest pully one can run with my setup without IC, safely?

This is my daily driver!

slimer

iTrader: (13)

you should not really have a problem, unless you are doing it every shift.

wortech says that it overspins the blower, but im sure if its warmed up, you should not have a problem with regular shifts

max'n out

My pipes dont' make many turns, infact it's far less than many setups and that of the turbo setups you guys love. No As I said I killed the blower with the 2.87 took it off to sell the car since Ive moved on to my m5. As for an intercooler being needed, theres guys making 6 psi after the intercooler and get benifit from it. But I see this is a losing battle and honestly I dont' care, Ive tried to help but theres too many preconseptions floating around the internet so I give up. I wish you guys luck with your maximas and the future cars you will have.

JeffesonM

iTrader: (5)

is there a different trim blower we can use that will provide more than 14psi without overspinning?

Stephen Max

iTrader: (59)

If there are preconceptions floating around, it's due to lack of experience. It's people like you who can clear that up! Come on, man, don't give up on us!

I don't see why you are saying it's a losing battle. No one here is arguing with you. But if you just want to move on to your M5, well, we can't help that.

JAY25

iTrader: (38)

Ian has 72K RPM limiter, if your scared go 3.33. I guarantee you w/ the 370's and JWT, youll put a big woooping on a SCed air to air ICed max. Its not my opinion thats a fact

max'n out

To outfit a blower to go over 14psi...what your acually looking for is a blower that can handle a higher rpm range I'd have to do that math but thats over 60,000....call vortech tell them you want to send your blower back to be upgraded to handle what ever the end resulting rpm is. They can help you do it...they will prob say we dont' recomend this....but money talks just put it up thats all. Stephen your right, I can clear it up and Ive been trying for 5 years since I joined the board. I want to move on , I"m willing to help with what I can but from time to time it seems as though people want to already know it all. I can only answer whats asked. Or try and reverse wrong written info. Things like the you don't need it for the 3.25 bother me.....largely cuz you dont' NEED 400, 500, 800 hp either...But intercoolers help and superchargers can use them...Really if you go on a NEED basis a turbo could get away with not having one too. It's been done.

crewchief264

I would like to show my appreciation for your input. I have been looking at pics of your car for about 6 months along with others, so I can get a rough line for piping. Your input is very helpful, if not for the simple common sense, but to help reafirm my senses. I've had just gotten tired of hearing people banter about s/c intercooler loss, and yet all the turbo kits run it on here, I mean it's just stupid...turbo.....s/c it's all boost and its all hot and it just makes sense that cold air makes horsepower.

Also Vortech does sell other higher performance s/c's. Upto 20 psi on some units just go cruise around their site for a while. By the way you can still get the V-1 Brand new. My buddy just had his new v-2 go **** up and vortech sent him a v-1 instead.

Also Major props for the M-5. I love those cars and if it's on my list of thing s to own in the future. Why didn't you wait for the new M-5? It's rumored to have the v-10 in it and have well over 500 hp- comes out next year!

max'n out

Your welcome I'm more than willing to help with anything. I can give you suggestions for your piping, mine is fine but there is a better way, as long as your willing to make some cuts and pay a bit more....the differences between s/c and turbo can be extreame in some cases and in others not so much...it depends which turbo and s/c you pick to compare, theres all kinds of each. Vortech does sell whole blowers that can do higher levels...BUT...look at the V2 specs it says 20 psi and 50,000 rpms impeller speed....the impeller speed is what you need to look at and calculate. 14psi is over that on a maxima. Even if it wasn't it makes sence to get the blower outfited with new peices you dont' need a whole new thing, it's only a couple of things they replace. Couple reasons I didnt' wait for the new M5...one those of us that own the E39 body got to see the prototype of the new M5 and I hate it. It's cheap inside...V10 500 hp sounds good 8500 rpm redline is nice...But I want the all around and it didn't do it for me. It's also gonna be 10-15 grand more than the E39. Theres gonna be a waiting list as well. And it's not gonna be out for about another year while they retouch it. ALso theres always somthing faster, we are in the milddle of a horsepower war between makers....

Shadow

iTrader: (15)

No one is arguing that an IC makes hp on the SC and that cold air is better. It's just your statement that there won't be a boost drop with the SC when there will be. You can't argue with physics and fluid dynamics. You can minimize it with proper design, but it will be there even minimally. You'll probably end up making more power with the IC and the SC, but there will be boost drop. With a turbo, the boost is measured at the intake manifold, and any boost drop caused by the IC will be compensated for by the turbo having to spin faster since how fast the turbine spins is not engine RPM dependent, it is boost dependent. With the SC, your impeller is only going to spin at a certain speed which is going to depend on engine RPM. The SC impeller can't spin any faster to compensate for boost drop. So how can you say that there will only be lag and not boost drop?

If you're trying to say that you'll see a given amount of boost later in the RPM range, that is true. But here's the part you're missing, it is due to you guessed it, PRESSURE DROP, and you're max boost at redline will be lower because of the same thing, PRESSURE DROP. That's what you're not understanding.

Stephen Max

iTrader: (59)

Very good explanation, Shadow.

Notice that we're not talking about boost leaks, here, either. Flow of a fluid (liquid or air) through a piping system always involves pressure loss due to friction in the fluid, and the amount of pressure loss is dependent on flow velocity, pipeline length, turns, abrupt diameter changes, and a few other things I'm not remembering right now.

Power gains due to cooler air are at least partially offset by pressure drop through the IC system. If the pressure drop through the IC system is high enough, it is possible to have cooler air but with a pressure drop high enough to result in a net power loss. When this happens you need to go to a smaller pulley to compensate for the boost loss.