I have a feeling that when you richen up the top from 6000 to 7000 rpm that the power will actually drop if all you are doing is tuning. The "leaner" condition will actually give you more power, but it will also raise your cylinder temps. You can tell them to tune it richer, but I bet that you will lose atleast 10 hp up top if you tune it back to 12:1 AF. Whats the solution? buy my IC and run 13:1 AF just joking... but some kind of IC would be a good investment for you for running such high boost. Unless you go a smaller pully(more boost) or cool down your IA charge, or lean out the AF, I don't see any other way for you to get any more power. hrmmm...

 

Quit teasing, you gonna sell me that or not?

 

Interesting because with the MEVI and higher redline I should be seeing the power go up at the top of the powerband, not down. With the raised redline I should be making more boost up top, right? More boost = more power, right?

If that's the case, then what's the point of the JWT ECU at all? My Cartech FMU and AFC + a FPR should be able to tune nicely without using the JWT or needing a raised redline if the raised redline isn't going to help at all.

Tlaking to Ben at JWT - he gave me the impression that because the MAF gets maxed out at around 6300RPM, it may be reducing timing up top drastically as a safety measure and if I fix that with a Z32 MAF, I should gain a bunch of power due to the timing not being as retracted. (Well, I threw that idea at him and he seemed to agree - he didn't say exactly that).

I guess my point is that I'm making the same HP JAY25 and Confused did with larger pulleys. (Confused had a 3.33" .) I should be higher than this with a MEVI and full 3" exhaust on a 2.87" Pulley, shouldn't I?

Maybe I won't hit quite what they would on a 2.87", due to Dynos and elevation and them having "factory freaks", etc, etc...<And I don't necessarily expect to> - But it looks like in this Dyno I am a good 15-20hp below where I conservatively should be. And that drop at high RPM on the Dyno is atrocious!

 

I wish someone else had a similar setup Dynoed with a Z32 MAF so that I could see what their power does up top with the JWT.

That would help alot.

Anyone done that?

This is starting to annoy me as much as when I converted to 5spd and lost 5hp at the wheels because of it.
The laws of physics just don't seem to apply to me.

 

I dynoed back in November. I hit 285 hp with a 3" pulley at 6500 rpm. The dyno operator let off when he saw the needle at 6800 rpm. I had told him to take it to 7000 rpm, but I forgot about the tach error.

My dyno shows what looks like a leveling off of power at about 6300 rpm. It is hard to tell if the power would have kept climbing (or gone down) after 6500 rpm.

I was a little disappointed by not making it to 300 hp, but I still have a pretty restrictive exhaust (2.25" test pipe at that time, 2.375" Stillen b-pipe and stock muffler), so maybe the exhaust was choking. I was going to dyno again this month, but now I think I have a fuel pump problem, so that has to be dealt with first.

 

Well, I dont think more boost is necessarily better. The more boost you have, the hotter your cylinder temps, and the more chance for knock. SO if it DOES start knocking, then your KS will retard the timing, so you will actually get less power. Have you checked your codes to see if you have any knock issues.. because sometimes, it is pretty hard to hear.

Well, the ECU IS good for fine tuning, and for the ability to adjust the timing advance, and IPWs, and all that stuff I believe. So if you stuck with the FMU and FPR, you would be doing coarse adjustments like with the 8:1 vortech FMU disks... you would go up 8 psi of fuel pressure for 1 lb of boost. Whether or not thats needed, it doesnt care, and so you have to tune it with an AFC, which is also coarse. While with the ECU, you dont have to do that.

As for the retarding of the timing when the MAF is saturated, that could be true, but Im not too sure. I know you are air referenced now, so when it DOES max out, you are going to be affected, because your ECU will look at the same table for that particular MAF voltage even though youve passed it already. Now if you were boost referenced, you probably wouldnt take that hit.maybe they can edit the the ECU to change that. And didn't JWT lower the timing advance for the Forced induction chips to lower than stock levels? Maybe you should tell them to pump it back up to stock levels. But then you would really have to worry about detonation... High boost + high advance timing... ughh..

As for dyno results... yea, theres just too many variables to compare your setup to theirs.

 

Nope - never once gotten KS or Misfire codes. Never shown any signs of misfire and all compression is still what it was at when I bought the car (190 all cylinders). More boost is better with the appropriate fuel management and cooling is what i was trying to say. I don't think I'm going into dangerous territory with the 2.87" IF it were paired with a Z32 MAF.

I have the Cartech FMU. I am aware of the regular Vortech FMU's restricitons and the AFC's. On the 3.12" Pulley I used the Cartech along with the AFC to get a perfect 12.1:1 fuel curve throughout the range. What I'm saying is if the raised reldine doesn't help, why have the JWT? Timing advance in the mid-range is a good point however - forgot about that. But from what I've read it retards in the upper RPM - and offsets some of those midrange gains.

Yep - I hear ya.

Yes, but the gap is too big for me to think it's just variables.

I should be somewhere in the same range as them. I'm not even close. With the 2.87" JAY25 theoretically would be at 350hp-360hp, Confused would be even higher.

I'm at 320. That's 30-40hp. That's a big gap, especially since I believe my exhaust is more open. (Full 3" from y-pipe back) If I was at 330-340 I would consider it a variable issue and not worry about it in the least. Really however it's not that big a deal. Being fast is great and all, but if I'm not safe, it's just dumb.

I need to fix the Z MAF issue first either way. If it adds power - . If not, then that's OK too.

 

Detonation won't throw a KS code. This seems to be a pretty common misconception over in the 4th Gen forum. If it did, I would have gotten it several times.

 

Thanks for clearing that up.

I've never heard any kind of detonation and never seen my EGT's above 1350.....

 

My MAF like 10" from the turbo, PFI kit. I use the anti stall on the E-manage and it works perfectly, has never idled better!. I suppose the anti stall on a AFC would be the same.

 

I don't believe the AFC-I has anti-stall.

 

Matt what your are talking about is deceleration air. I tried it three weeks ago on my car. Boy it works like a champ when you come off boost. It prevents the car from stalling. But as soon as you come to a complete stop the car idles funny and it shuts off . I removed the setting off the SAFC and left it alone.

 

Also on the note, I'm pretty sure I have never heard Ian's car detonate once. During the last dyno tune, I sat right in front of his motor the entire time, and not once heard knock. Then again, it maybe different when your actually driving it, but everytime I'm in his car, I'm always listening to what the motor is doing and have yet to hear something like that. So I really doubt that his KS is throwing back the timing. All I can say though....there is a lot of food for thought here. That Anti-stall feature on the E-Manage sounds nice too!

S

 

Well, I went and Dynoed again and did some testing:

1) I tested the MAF Voltage. At about 5800 RPM it hits 5.115 Volts and stays there. It's very obvious I am maxing the MAF out now. I go lean at exactly this point.

2) I reset the ECU, putting the programming in "reset mode" This made me run VERY rich. On the run, I was quite rich the whole time until 5800 again. But this time I was about 1 point lower up top on leanness. By that happeneing, I gained 10hp.

So this tells me 2 things:
1) I need a Z32 MAF
2) Richening it up at the top WILL add power back.



Oh - and adding 3" exhaust gave me 17.6 peak hp and 24.4tq. (see first Dyno in this thread) That is the only change since my last Dyno was going from a WSP Y-Pipe, Straight Pipe, B-Pipe and Stillen Exhaust to a Cattman 3" Y-Pipe, 3" Carsound Cat, 3" B-Pipe, and 3" Magnaflow Exhaust.

 

Wow I am glad it is figured out! I should get my JWT ECU this week, they have had it since Feb 2004!

 

Schweeeeet, you gett'n right up there brotha. Keep up the good work.

 

Thanks for the kudos tampamax!

 

All you need to do now is lean it out a bit on the front end, make a tad bit richer on the top. Tune a few times to get a solid stable a/f ratio and bust out the giggly stuff. Divert a little to the FMIC and then the rest down the throat and hang the *** on.

 

Don't have a FMIC tampamax.

And richening up top involved the Z32 MAF - which I just sent Confused the money for tonight.

Then I'll get down to the nitty gritty tuning once I solve the "18" form the inlet" problem.

I'm selling the N20 Kit I have now - I don't want to run dry if I use the "giggly stuff".

This is probably as far as I take her - at least for now.

 

WWWWWWWWWWHHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA? You run how much boost and you have no intercooler? Maybe you got a SMIC or a water to air(i think that's what its called). I was under the impression that if one were to be in the neighborhood of 9+ psi an intercooler was a VERY prudent investement.

It's not smart to shoot your hand off in order to be the first kid to put his hand in the cookie jar.

P.S. hold onto the n2o and run a chiller for an intercooler using c02. Cheap hp if you already got the gear.

 

I haven't ever detonated even once that I can tell - even on the Dyno where temps tend to be hotter.

I'm also only running 1 step colder plugs....

I'm pretty sure of people that aren't running a FMIC/Nitrous/AWIC/Aquamist or any other cooling and run 10PSI or even 11.

However - I did forget to list Aquamist as my next mod after the Z32 MAF.

 

Ok i see where you're coming from, but what about all the parsitic losses from a hotter charge than you 'could' have. The charge temps start to skyrocket around 9psi(depending on charger effeciency). Think of all the free hp you are wasting?

You can do what you wish, but wouldn't it bug you to think of how much extra performance you are leaving on the table so to speak? And all this time i thought you were putting down those numbers with an intercooler.

 

All the research I've seen on this Forum says that a SC + FMIC causes power and boost loss due to the bends in the piping and the FMIC itself.

Aquamist also may or may not do the same thing - but since it's a cheaper alternative, I will probably do that and see what happens.....

IanS

 

If anyone is interested to see the progress I've made since last July in detail or any other things, here are the Dyno Files (you need the Dynojet Runviewer to view).

http://www.cyberhub.net/dyno/Intec%20Dynos/

IanS

 

Don't get me wrong there are some very knowledgable folks on here, but the reasonong for power loss due to piping bends and IC's just doesn't sound right. If the IC is to large then sure i can see were you could have a loss, then there is the other side if the coin for the benefits of a properly sized IC. I'm sure you've done pleanty of research on this matter so i'm not going to try to convince you otherwise or pretend to know what i'm talking about when it comes to the SC systems in use on the max. Just don't use this forum as the be all to end all for information and actual facts. On more than one occation i've discovered things contrary to the org's popular beliefs. All i'm saying is think of a second or third opinion.

Just hoping for you to get the most out of your setup, that's all. Keep up the progress.

 

I completely hear ya.

If I ever see Dyno proof that a FMIC helps fend off detonation AND doesn't cause power loss - or even better, adds power - then I'd consider spending the money to do it.

But until I see it, I can't justify it - that's all.

And I know the Maxima.org forums, while informative - are not the end all. Alot of people thought a 3" exhaust would make you lose power below 4000RPM for example.

 

Whats wrong with trying the MAF on the charged side like StephanMax and hoping for the best ???

Ill be doing the MAF in about 2 months so Ill keep up with IANs posts

I have no Idea how you are going to run the MAF into the fender well then run a recir. system back up to the charged side.

-matt

 

Because the charged side can damage/ruin/break the z32 maf. This is an expensive part to "hope for the best".

I am going to have a custom 18inch pipe made for the intake with recirc inlet.

 

Yeah, I'm getting 11-12 psi at 7-7.2 krpm without any sort of charge air cooling or water injection, but the JWT ecu helps in that regard by pulling timing at higher rpm. On the other hand, I had to drop to two steps colder plugs. Back when I was running just one step colder plugs, I would get detonation on warm days with a hot engine. I'm seriously thinking of water injection for when the weather gets hot here in a couple of months.

I am very surprised you're not getting detonation at high rpm when your afr gets up above 13.5:1, with only one step colder plugs, no less. I don't understand that at all, unless you're dynoing in some pretty cold weather.

Or maybe your big exhaust is helping keep combustion chamber temps down...

 

What I did was make a flanged fitting that bolted onto the bov outlet. I ran a 5/8" heater hose from the fitting to another hose fitting at the tube in between the maf and the blower inlet. That part of my setup worked well, but having the maf only about 10" away from the blower inlet did not.

 

Your speaking french to me..any pics ?:??

-matt

 

Look at his car domain site page 2 , pic 3
http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/260562/2

He has a hose going from his BOV to the recric point.

Remember, of course, he is not running the z32 maf on the intake side.

No one has done this yet with 18 inches, therefore there are not pics to show you, but you can get the idea by looking at his pics.

Someone want to draw us a nice diagram I could give to my pipe maker? :>

 

without doing a recir, that top hose off of the BOV would be open to air ??

all the recir system is, is routing that to the top of the intake manifold ??>

-matt

 

Actually, that pic doesn't show the recirc hose. The hose you see is the vacuum line to the bov. Here's a better pic:




The other end of the hose attaches to this hose, which is connected to the maf at one end and to the blower inlet via a 3.5" rubber coupling from Home Depot (which you can see in the pic above):



This piece is an oem Z32 intake duct part.

 

Yes, I beleive he is just releasing that air to the atmosphere since it is not being metered first like if it were on the intake side.

Stephen: so what exactly are you doing there in your current setup?

 

My current setup has the Z32 maf in the pressurized part of the intake, just like the standard Stillen 4th gen SC kit.

 

Zut alors! Mais non, mon petit chou, je ne parle jamais la francais. Eh bien, peut-etre un petit peu. Voila l'image en haut.

 

............

 

I got that much, I guess I need to read more about BOVs. hmmm vaccuum line

 

Where does that hose go thats coming off of the BOV ??

[/QUOTE]The other end of the hose attaches to this hose, which is connected to the maf at one end and to the blower inlet via a 3.5" rubber coupling from Home Depot (which you can see in the pic above):

.[/QUOTE]

This piece is an oem Z32 intake duct part.[/QUOTE]

Im tryin to understand all of this