Yes Im starting this thread again. Sorry in advance

With all the money you guys(successful turbo'd and SC people)spend on fuel managment, don't you think that a stand alone ECU would of been worth the price?
I know that they don't make one specifically for your cars but thats the beauty of them, they can be wired to any car.
Not only that but the abilty to tune your cars on the spot. I just don't get the whole FMU,FPR,wideband O2, stuff.
Im sorry if im annoying some of you but this has got to be said, one of the turbo's or sc has to get one. Its like buying a great guitar and never tuning it correctly. It will never perform up to its capabilities.

Seriously after all the money you spent, and time you put into the car don't you think you should do it right?


Let the flaming begin!

 

Um again, it's been done. And according to him, it was a fairly big hassle. It also costs $1,500 min and add $, if you need someone to install/tune it.

So unless you know how to "wire them to any car", you really don't know how big of a hassle it is to get one of these things going.

 

Probably around 2500-4500 for the ecu. 1000 of that for someone else to wire it. When you spent the money on your turbo/SC you spent what 2500? Plus all the stuff to make sure it doesn't lean out at WOT. Its not that ubsurd. Seems like it would be money well spent. I know there aren't a whole lot of people racing these things but why go to all that trouble to put a "tuned" JWT ecu on if you still have to buy FMU's and such?

Here is the point: With such obviously talented people putting together these great cars no one has gone to the next step?

Hell jeff didn't you help make a CAI for 2nd gen max's? So why is this so impossible,not worth it?

 

It really HURTS being the 1st or 2nd at anything.

And IF I had ~$2000 to blow on it, I would. I'll stick with a ~$500 option that is a decent tune. ( BTW, my $500 option, is NOT JWT )

After watching a buddy with a turbo is300, that HAD an emanage, go through ~6 months of testing and trying this and that, only to end up with a HALTECH... sorry, I'd lose my mind.

Tell you what, get it ANY stand alone working 100% and then you may have some friends, until then, spending ~$2k on a possibly flop, is not worth it.

Most of us, either don't have the resources or those that do, don't pump them into a maxima.

 

you can do all of this without an FMU...it's called JWT's S/C or turbo program which is good for perfectly setting up your A/F ratio using your stock MAF, however, the ecu can only effectively "tune" your ratio for you if the MAF is doing it's job and not "maxing" out which happens to be around 350 crank hp...which is where if you still don't want and FMU, you can get the JWT S/C or turbo program ecu with Z32 maf or 370cc injectors in the program....then the Z32 maf is good to about 420 crank hp...more than enough for most of us on the forums here...this is the only way to get the FP's and AFR you desire without using an FMU...

 

That's incorrect, the emanage unit can do the above without the FMU

 

Let us know when your done and you can tell US if it's worth it. All I'm trying to say is, don't tell people what's worth or not, if you don't have any experience in any of the available options. You don't know until you try it.

I haven't installed a stand alone. BUT based on the research I've done (not just asking/posting), it's expensive and pretty technical. I CERTAINLY wouldn't tell someone to go stand alone w/o any experience on the subject. ESPECIALLY when they cost so much to begin with.

If that's the right way for you, go ahead and do it. Post your experiences and we can all learn.

With the JWT, you don't need all those extra devices and their programs are injector pulsewidth dependent and not fuel pressure depended(as long as it's constant and known). You might need bigger injectors depending on your fuel requirements.

 

yeah but with the emanage solution...you are still stuck with the 240cc injectors and A32 maf....so there is only so much you can do from there or for the same amount of money, you can get used 370's and a Z32 maf and still not need an FMU and then on top of that run much more power than the emange would allow you to safely run...

 

Not sure what you are getting at. Are replying to me? I never said to use emanage or etc...

 

You can go 150% larger injectors with emanage. 555 cc injectors will work just fine.

How much power do you think the emanage will let you run safely? (I can't answer this question, cause I have NO idea what the answer is)

And you can switch to a MAP setup with emanage and ditch the MAF setup.


I think he was talking to me jeff

 

How come nobody likes the JWT S/C turbo program for the Maxima ?? I am planning on doing this next year as an upgrade...
How is emanage better ??

-matt

 

I don't own EITHER. I am giving you my opinon of why I don't like the JWT ECU, after some face to face talking with other maxmia owners. The ONLY thing I saw that JWT gave you was an increased Red Line. The "tune" on the ecu would have to be reprogrammed by JWT if you ever upped your boost or if you changed some things. ( exapmle, went to a 440 cc injector ) With emanage, you just change the settings yourself. And being able to switch to a MAP system instead of a MAF system sounds nice. You have stock timing and when you tune it, you can pull timing.

The emanage requires MORE work on the users part, but the ability to do more for similar cost is what really sells the deal. Not having to wait for shipping or reprogramming is nice.

JWT ecu is more user friendly and is "plug and play". But it is very limited when it comes to upgrades. AND, last I heard, the 555 cc injector program still did not work 100%.

Again, my opinons, not experience

 

Bags,
so are you saying that if you had the emanage you would not need an FMU,or a FPR and also you would not need to upgrade your MAF, you can just run off the map system. correct me if i'm wrong.

 

How hard is the Emanage to install ?? whats it cost ?? if it as "reliable" as the JWT ECU ??

-matt

 

if you can install an AFC, you can do Emanage...total cost for everything(unit, harnesses, etc) is like $500....from my experiences with it, its very reliable and a good unit. it will never compare to a good standalone, but its fine for what most of you plan to do.

the funny thing is many of you are hollering "stand alone, stand alone" why not look into developing a good rom editor instead? I suggest doing some more research. if JWT has the means to reprogram ECUs with whatever rom editor they are using, who says if yall don't put your heads toghether you can come up with your own or attempt to use or play around with the one Nissan editor that already exists and is free on the net

 

I like this idea!
There are a lot of people out there who know how to program. These ECU's shouldn't be terribly hard to do. Hell they should sell a kit where your can reprogram your own ecu,upload better maps,injector size,timing,etc...

All they would need is an harness,program,interface,programing for dummies book. And your set

 

Thought it was time to share my experiences with a JWT ecu:

http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=327286

 

I've installed/reinstalled an Electromotive TEC-II on a motorcycle engine that was converted to fuel-injection, however I only just scratched the surface on tuning and I am by NO means an expert. OMFG...what a nightmare and I was humbled. I do know what goes on in a standalone and what kind of time tuners like JWT must spend to just get "okay" maps built.

ANYONE who says "oh just go stand-alone" doesn't have a clue on what is involved. I only had a brief encounter and it was enough. SCREW the cost...aint nothing. SCREW the install...anyone can do it. However, tuning just to get the thing to start/idle is a b!tch...just imagine trying to tune acceleration/deceleration without flame-out or damaging something. And all that is for a "race engine" mostly at WOT, which is MUCH much simpler then what a street car needs.

Stand-alone is powerful and awesome if you have a *HUGE* knowledge base built up for your type of vehicle. People who've already got the base maps built and semi-custom maps for popular configurations are lucky. However, we don't and will never have that.

Automotive manufacturers burn THOUSANDS of R&D hours developing/fine-tuning the ECU code you guys take for granted every day and are considering tossing out the window when you go standalone. Just think about the complexity necessary for closed-loop operation. I don't even know of a stand-alone that can do that. Then consider cold startup, hot startup, altitude/weather compensation, fuel economy, limp-mode, accessory air compensation, fuel variance, etc.. With a stand alone you have NONE of that to start with and it's not even possible with most.

Piggy-back ECUs are limited, YES~! However, I believe they are good enough now to handle 90+% of the people out there and pretty much 99+% of us Maxima "tweakers". Piggy-backs are GREAT because you keep all the manufacturers diagnostic, fuel trim, cold/hot start, and fail safe algoritims, yet you can accomodate the fuel/timing needs during open-loop. Yes, you can only push them so far before they fight you, but that fight is NOTHING compared to the work/painful lessons involved making your own standalone configuration.

Until you've pushed the envelope too far, ie changing CR, displacement, 15+psi, 450+whp, etc. *OR* you are no longer a street car, but going full-race...don't even consider going standalone IMO. A piggy-back like eManage or an AFC w/J&S will be much more streetable and cheaper. IMO...until you find the edge of that envelope, you're not even capable of configuring a standalone without a seriously expensive/painful learning curve.

Last...a street-car with standalone will *NEVER* be as good/flexible as what manufacturer ECUs are for everyday driving. So, if you intend to still drive your car everyday on the street in traffic, cold/hot temps, crusing with somewhat decent fuel economy/emissions, then your factory ECU with a piggy-back or JWT/TS tweaks will be the least headache. You'll actually be DRIVING the car...not hacking on it every other day to fix this and that annoying bug/quirk in endless tail-chasing everytime one little thing like weather changes.

Just my .02, which aint worth jack.

 

Wow, I like how you take this info, and use it in other posts like your know what your talking about in a different thread! I suggest too, since you keep talking about this stuff.....go out and actually get this stuff....and try it first hand. Seriously. You have a big interested in it, why don't you just learn to use it? You have been talking about this for a long time, but you haven't acted on it.

S

 

I want to thank Icey2k for answering my question. Thanx man!

Sarin
First classes are Engines,welding 100, Manufacturing tech(CAD). Start next month bro. Hopefully my posts will get progressively less retarded, we can only hope!

Classes for the Fuel map tunning cost about 500$ a pop so that will have to wait till next semester.

Sarin from me to you J/K!

 

Yes, it is possible to do that. From greddy's website..."If the factory range of map or airflow meter is surpassed, you can incorporate our "Optional GReddy Pressure Sensor and Pressure Harness" to set larger scales of adjustment."

Now, I don't know of anyone doing this on a maxima.

 

Nice! At least your starting to act on all your talk by learning more about everything! Awesome deal!

S

 

just to clarify... you can't "run" your car off the Greddy map. you can only use its voltage readings as a substitue for your own tuning once stock MAF voltage is maxed out @ 5v...IMO Z32 MAF upgrade is still the more efficient method and Emanage allows that as well.

 

Thank you. I offer my opinon about what I read and talk about with others.

Your real world experience helps control rumors and myths.


Matty- I look at most of us in this forum, to be a little above the norm, when it comes to car mods. So, to me, putting in a boost gauge or fmu or turbo timer is not that hard. It's just electrical connections and knowing the CORRECT wires to tap into.

da-max- And yes, I'd love to be able to tune the stock ECU like I see so many mustang and camaro owners do. I think Icy may have stated this before. I do not have the computer knowledge to do so.

alex- good post. And I am with you, I'll never need a standalone. At least not for my maxima

 

sorry about the confusion... I just re-read what he asked, and he did say "run"

thanks for clearing that up for me


And I did not know that you could swap the MAF.. hmm learn something new everyday

 

http://www.925style.com/editor_direct.html
this is the editor I was talking about....kinda intricate IMO compared to what I use on my Integra, but many SR guys have easily been using it for a while

http://www.autoserve.8m.com/Nissan.html
how to chip Nissan ECUs

using the editor from that first link and some VG30E bin files, I'm playing around with them to see what I can come up with. this editor is a little more intricate than the Honda editors I use, but a little while longer and maybe I'll figure it out and test on a VG.

 

This is what I'm doing. I have my MAF clamped off at 4.95 since mine maxes out at 4.97. I tune the injector maps using the pressure sensor harness so it is based off of boost and not the MAF.

The same goes with retarding the timing. I am using the pressure sensor harness so I can pull timing vs. boost instead of using the MAF readings.

 

pimpjuice,

You're using the Additional Injection table to ADD fuel under boost, but are you using the Airflow Correction table to REMOVE fuel or anything?

Are you running bigger injectors?

 

Also, any new dynos?

 

I am only adding fuel. I haven't had any need to reduce fuel yet.

As for dynos, I haven't gone since the last time I dyno'd. Right now I am using my aem wideband in conjunction with the profec e-01 to try and get a smooth A/F ratio curve in the 11.25-11.75 range. As soon as I have the proper tuning, I will go to the dyno and post some results.

I don't have larger injectors, but I plan to get some 350z injectors and see if they will work on my car.

Fuel pressure is being added using the DFMU and injector pulse width is being added using the e-manage. I am also pulling 1 degree of timing per psi of boost and 2 degrees after 6000 RPMs.

With this setup I have been able to run the car at 11.5 psi, but I was running really rich (off the aem wideband scale of 11:1). I want to slowly lean it out, but I am weary without having J&S to pull extra timing if needed.

 

What's the e-01 showing your duty cycle at? Any idea what fuel pressure you're seeing?

Also, you should add a fuel return line or go with an inline pump like SR20DEN had. Your returnless setup is a ticking time bomb IMO.

The stock 350z or DEK injectors can be had cheap(~$50), however that's only buying you ~20cc. I'd pick up a set of RC 440s or if you got the loot PE 510s.

 

Dutycycle hits 100% fast, thats why I have the DFMU adding pressure.

My fuel pressure stays around 60 psi (under boost).

I am currently running an in-tank AND inline walbro pump.

The cost for the 350z injectors is why I would buy them to see if anything from the Z would work for my car. I would then go with an aftermarket injector that is made for the Z if it works.

We're both on the same page.

Also, any idea where I can get the injectors that cheap? I was just going to go to a local Nissan dealership.

 

Those are good points but check out the link here:

http://www.motec.com/support/manuals...%20M8%20A5.pdf

Some stand alones let you do these things. They also have good tech service with guys who will help you. They want your car run successfully too, just for the fact that you will open up possibilities for all those who are looking for this system.

Yeah it sucks being the first but who knows maybe they'll give you a discount/sponsorship. You never know.

 

That's right, I knew you had the intank, but forgot about the inline. You just need an FPR, lines, and some fittings then to copy SR20DENs route. I'm not sure if that's better or worse then just adding a return line.

eBay and my350z.com have them. People dump them every now and then...I'll keep my eyes open.

Also, you shouldn't have much, if any, fitment issues with the DEK/350Z aftermarket injectors. However, that's ASSuming the rails are similar, but you'll at least need the ~1/2" rail spacers RC provides for the GReddy kit.

 

Motec's are great, but FAR from simple or easy and I don't care what techline you call...it isn't going to be able to help you tune it and build maps.

I've never personally worked on a Motec, but from the horror stories I've heard on my friends turbo CRX and a seen on a couple college SAE competition cars...they'd pretty much be my last choice.

There are people in this world I've met who are wired differently and can "see" how multitudes of variables interact, so those people can use complex standalones like Motec.

As to the "it sucks being the first" comment, anyone considering standalone should have had hands on experience tuning/hacking/trouble-shooting SEVERAL engine management systems from stock, open-loop black boxes, eManage/J&S, etc. before ever jumping to the major leagues and pioneering a "first" time application. The complexity of building maps from scratch isn't intuitive and takes top engine tuners MANY years to refine/learn how to keep from blowing parts out the oil pan(seen that~!).

A first timer can try but they'll end up with a poorly running vehicle, subpar performance, and sooner or later a blown engine. I'd rather leave all the manufacturers thousands of R&D hours, driveability, and safe guards in place and focus my time/money on the only part I care about improving, ie open loop operation. To date...there are more then enough bandaid fixes to overcome the minor OEM hurdles the stock ECU has. IMO...don't replace it and reinvent the wheel, just modify it until it submits. I'd rather follow Mardigrasmax, BigDogJonx, Kevs, Jays, pimpjuice, and MANY others here example and once I reach that point, *THEN* I'll decide whether I have the sack to pioneer a different route.

Until you man up and buy a standalone, slice up your harness, and do a mexican hat dance on your ECU, I'll just nod and say suuuuuure.

 

Motec's are nice, so are AEM's, Haltech's, Autronic, Electromotive, etc. But all of them are overkill for our applications. Icy is right, those things are very, ery hard to tune and even more so on a car like the Maxima where there is absolutely no support or previous experience with them. They're hard to tune on Supras and even Civics with tons and tons of qualified tuners and previous experiences. On a Maxima with nothing to base the tuning off of, it would be a nightmare. They would be great for track use, but during daily driving, the drivability would suck. ie, on Hondas, the popular route is the Hondata which retains the factory ECU for drivability. These are being used on very high hp cars. They could go with any number of standalones, but don't.

I'm still not sure why you're so bent on needing standalone. It's more tuning than we even need. How many guys have the built motors that would even benefit from the tunability of a standalone. We're not building 1000 hp drag monsters here. I'd go with the KISS philosophy and stick with simplicity. A few guys have tried standalones before, it didn't work out well at all.

My friend runs Batlground Engineering, he tunes cars for a living and his personal car is an 8.5 sec drag Supra. Ask him how easy it is to tune standalone. He's running an AEM EMS on his car that's supposed to be "plug and play" It's still not running 100% after a year of tuning and tech support from AEM. Lots of little bugs. I've personally been there multiple times watching him do 18 hour tuning sessions on his car before a race just because the standalone decided to take a crap. He'll be the first to tell you that if you don't need or aren't running enough power for a standalone, don't do it. And we're not making anywhere near enough power to justify the expense/difficulty of standalone.

 

Thanx again for the responses guys. I wanted to hear from those of you who have done this, or knew someone who had.

I don't know about you guys but I like working on my old piece of car. Yeah it can be a PITA. But making it faster and stronger is kinda addicting.

You guys have some fast rides, so when all the band aids stop being a useful are you going to stop?
That would suck!
Also let me clarify that my goal is not to be the fastest 88 maxima
I decided awhile ago to learn to build cars. Back in the day it was all about the engine but know you must know how to program it also. So thats why I started this in the first place. To see why you guys go this far and then "bandaid" the car. I personally don't think theres anything wrong with it, I was kinda confused. Keep up the good work guys. Ill do more research and stop bothering you now.

But be honest now...how fun is it to blow the doors of some balding 49yo,with his 22yo GF, in his new Mustang?

Peace

 

The current engine management solutions are all pretty much bandaids, but they are effective ones. Very few people here have built motors, so we're limited to ~400 whp and even then that's pushing it. At that power level, standalones wouldn't be needed.

If maybe there were more built motors or race specific maximas, then I'd say standalones would be justifiable. But what's the point of $4K for a standalone installed and tuned when you're still limited by the stock motor/tranny/whatever. Car won't be any faster, and it would just cause drivability headaches.

There are cars with way more power that still run e manage or whatever it may be, short of a standalone. It's just not cost effective for what we're doing.

 

I know what you mean. I love beating up on those young guys that still have some hair left.

(Oh, btw, you're only as old as the woman you feel.)

 

It better be a 2k3+ cobra or vette to be worthwhile