The ONLY thread about Twin Turboing a Maxima.
07-30-2004, 10:33 PM
#1
The ONLY thread about Twin Turboing a Maxima.
I want this to be the ONLY thread about Twin Turboing a Maxima. The topic comes up once every 2 weeks or so. I am looking for SOLID information of why a twin turbo setup will or won't work.
This will be locked and stickied after it has run it's course.
Any BS will be deleted, start another thread about this issue, it will be deleted and you may have a day off from www.maxima.org
I'll start.....
Why I think it is NOT a good idea to TT a maxima. Lack of physical space. There is almost NO room on the rear of the motor for anything. And the fact that FUEL, coolant, and electrical lines run back there, make it very hard to put a pipe that is ~1400 degrees F.
Not to mention trying to get a turbo back there. The lack of space just makes it very difficult.
This will be locked and stickied after it has run it's course.
Any BS will be deleted, start another thread about this issue, it will be deleted and you may have a day off from www.maxima.org
I'll start.....
Why I think it is NOT a good idea to TT a maxima. Lack of physical space. There is almost NO room on the rear of the motor for anything. And the fact that FUEL, coolant, and electrical lines run back there, make it very hard to put a pipe that is ~1400 degrees F.
Not to mention trying to get a turbo back there. The lack of space just makes it very difficult.
07-30-2004, 10:51 PM
#2
Another reason. The VG, VE and VQ normally aspirated engines are already high compression. Using TT has historicly been used to help the throttle response(fight turbo lag) on factory TT'd engines that feature lower compression ratios(relatively).
Since maxima V6 engines also feature decent lowend anyway, the extra trouble/expensive of running two exhaust DPs, two oil feed/drain lines, two charge pipes, two BO valves etc.... don't justify the gains available for TT.
Just ask yourself this question. If TT is all that great, why does all the FD3 FX7 and Supra TT people go single when they have TT stock?
Nissan Z32 TT and Audi TT guys don't go single because they can't. If they could, they would
Since maxima V6 engines also feature decent lowend anyway, the extra trouble/expensive of running two exhaust DPs, two oil feed/drain lines, two charge pipes, two BO valves etc.... don't justify the gains available for TT.
Just ask yourself this question. If TT is all that great, why does all the FD3 FX7 and Supra TT people go single when they have TT stock?
Nissan Z32 TT and Audi TT guys don't go single because they can't. If they could, they would
07-30-2004, 11:44 PM
#3
interesting this kind of thread pops up around when im doing my project. im using a pair of t22's i tore off one of my blown z motors and using them on my 4th gen. even though the motors are not the same, the vq is still what you may call an older more refined brother of the vg design used in z32's. i feel that with just the stock turbos off of a z32 will give incredible gains on the motor (assuming it will be custom built with internals). the advanced breathing and cooling characteristics should allow for more power to the ground than the vg. theres no real benefit really in my perspective than a single turbo setup but i figure since im on a budget and i have plenty of small turbos sitting at my house, i can just use what i have and make soemthing new. anyways, in my opinion unless someone is willing to put a lot of effort into making a twin turbo setup and selling it for cheap i dont think theres really any reason to not just have a single turbo. the only point i can think of would be if one was willing to go all out on building the motor and used something along the lines of twin t28's which would produce incredible amounts of power without the issue of lag.
07-30-2004, 11:54 PM
#4
Originally Posted by densetsu
the advanced breathing and cooling characteristics should allow for more power to the ground than the vg.
I am curious about this statement. What "characteristics" are you referring to? And in relationship to what?
Not doggin you, just trying to understand where your coming from
07-31-2004, 12:24 AM
#5
Originally Posted by Bags
I am curious about this statement. What "characteristics" are you referring to? And in relationship to what?
Not doggin you, just trying to understand where your coming from
Not doggin you, just trying to understand where your coming from
07-31-2004, 08:13 AM
#6
^^^ heheehe
hmmm, TT maxima's...this topic sounds so familiar
BTW, those that remember me and this topic, i wasnt making it up, a company really told me about how they put a z32 engine inside a max, made it RWD and everything. Not sure if they were BSing or not but thats the info they sent wtih great pricing but i didnt follow through cause they didnt show enough proof.
hmmm, TT maxima's...this topic sounds so familiar
BTW, those that remember me and this topic, i wasnt making it up, a company really told me about how they put a z32 engine inside a max, made it RWD and everything. Not sure if they were BSing or not but thats the info they sent wtih great pricing but i didnt follow through cause they didnt show enough proof.
07-31-2004, 08:20 AM
#7
Originally Posted by densetsu
well, the manifolds on vq's are much more effecient at lower rpm's than on the previous vg's and the valves on the vq are also larger. internally it is cooled much more effectively than the vg's were by cooling the head and block indepentantly. cooler temeratures equate to the allowance of faster moving parts which is good not only for motors that rev high, but also for motors that rev quickly - ie. turbocharged ones. anyways, the vq would create more power simply because it is just much more effecient in everything that a motor needs to do. also the internals are lighter, and the rods are shorter. all this adds up when producing power which is why the vq is much more suitable for boost than the vg. though not 100% the same as the vq's in a 4th gen, the z33 race cars even use tt vq motors in japan. but yeah, i hope i answered your question but im still kind of high so it was hard to exactly figure out what you wanted.
Thanks for explaining it. I know zero about the vg series of motors. Yeah you nailed it. I did not know what you were comparing. You made it clear. Thanks
07-31-2004, 10:26 AM
#8
I could do a TT setup on my 3rd gen quite easily due to my current setup but it just seems kind of pointless since the total cost nearly doubles. If you get the right sized turbo you shouldn't have any spooling problems yet still retain the ability to push high hp.
08-01-2004, 02:07 PM
#9
i agree in terms of practicality a single turbo is better but just to play the devils advocate consider that the motor is going to be fully built in which case the hp level we would be looking at would be near 600 to the wheels if using dual t28's or possibly t25/28 hybrids. to acheive this kind of power on a single turbo setup you would be sacrificing much more spooling time and boost would not kick in nearly as early as with two smaller turbos. of course the same power could be made, and it would not be that much higher in the rpm range, but in my opinion, the lower you get boost, the less you have to worry about revving the motor higher to have more rpm under boost.
for example if you are running a single turbo where you acheive full boost at around 4500 rpm you would be making the same power but you would have to raise the rev limiter to allow the motor to be under boost for longer. if you are running a dual setup where you get full boost at 3500 or even less you will not have to worry as much about having to rev the motor higher thus preserving life of the motor. it may be more trouble than its worth but i feel that its worth a try at least with the smaller turbos that im going to use. i doubt anything larger than t22's would fit in the engine bay but ill be able to determine that for sure after all the piping is finished. but i do think that a tt setup would be a much better value if thinking strictly in terms on performance because those tiny things spool almost instantly and will flow enough to allow 450whp on the vq.
of course, having two of everything complicates things a lot more so it probably really isnt worth it but you never know until you try
for example if you are running a single turbo where you acheive full boost at around 4500 rpm you would be making the same power but you would have to raise the rev limiter to allow the motor to be under boost for longer. if you are running a dual setup where you get full boost at 3500 or even less you will not have to worry as much about having to rev the motor higher thus preserving life of the motor. it may be more trouble than its worth but i feel that its worth a try at least with the smaller turbos that im going to use. i doubt anything larger than t22's would fit in the engine bay but ill be able to determine that for sure after all the piping is finished. but i do think that a tt setup would be a much better value if thinking strictly in terms on performance because those tiny things spool almost instantly and will flow enough to allow 450whp on the vq.
of course, having two of everything complicates things a lot more so it probably really isnt worth it but you never know until you try
08-01-2004, 02:39 PM
#10
densetsu- you make some vaild points. BUT, if you were able to make ~600 WHP, you'd have to do TONS more than just a built motor.
An entire tranny would need to be built, drive shafts would need to be built, and I don't even know what you could do to the chassis and unibody to make it hold ~600 whp.
So on that claim, I think it's VERY far fetched to be able to HAVE a 600whp maxima and drive it.
And if you were able to move the single turbo closer (~2ft from block) and have a GOOD set of headers and 2-1 collector made, I think the BUILT VQ would rather have the single turbo that would spool around ~3500 and making ~500 WHP.
And to cap it all off, I still don't think fitting 2 turbos into a 4th/5th gen is a pratical decsion.
An entire tranny would need to be built, drive shafts would need to be built, and I don't even know what you could do to the chassis and unibody to make it hold ~600 whp.
So on that claim, I think it's VERY far fetched to be able to HAVE a 600whp maxima and drive it.
And if you were able to move the single turbo closer (~2ft from block) and have a GOOD set of headers and 2-1 collector made, I think the BUILT VQ would rather have the single turbo that would spool around ~3500 and making ~500 WHP.
And to cap it all off, I still don't think fitting 2 turbos into a 4th/5th gen is a pratical decsion.
08-01-2004, 08:35 PM
#11
one crazy *** design that has always been floating in my head is a roots and single turbo setup. mass power throughout the rev range. getting something setup like that would be a major headache though. not sure i'd want to get that bad of a headache. 
)
08-02-2004, 02:21 PM
#14
Turtle turtle... Moderator
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nowadays with turbos you have so many options to increase flow or decrease lag i dont think a twin turbo setup has much if any advantage in terms of lag or cost. One is good enough.
like someone said already. Look at all the RX7 and Supra guys converting to single turbo setups.
like someone said already. Look at all the RX7 and Supra guys converting to single turbo setups.
08-02-2004, 02:26 PM
#15
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on the twin turbo 3Z, each turbo is fed off 1 exhaust manifold (3 cylinders) then through its own intercooler, and then through its own throttle body and 3 cylinders on the intake manifold.
so on the Maxima, are you gonna both turbos off both exhaust manifolds or custom manifolds for each turbo? then throught 1 intercooler or 2 and into the throttle body? i dunno, the more i think about it the more it seems like more trouble then its worth.
i hope that makes sense....ok later
so on the Maxima, are you gonna both turbos off both exhaust manifolds or custom manifolds for each turbo? then throught 1 intercooler or 2 and into the throttle body? i dunno, the more i think about it the more it seems like more trouble then its worth.
i hope that makes sense....ok later
08-02-2004, 02:50 PM
#16
Originally Posted by Turbo95Max
on the twin turbo 3Z, each turbo is fed off 1 exhaust manifold (3 cylinders) then through its own intercooler, and then through its own throttle body and 3 cylinders on the intake manifold.
so on the Maxima, are you gonna both turbos off both exhaust manifolds or custom manifolds for each turbo? then throught 1 intercooler or 2 and into the throttle body? i dunno, the more i think about it the more it seems like more trouble then its worth.
i hope that makes sense....ok later
so on the Maxima, are you gonna both turbos off both exhaust manifolds or custom manifolds for each turbo? then throught 1 intercooler or 2 and into the throttle body? i dunno, the more i think about it the more it seems like more trouble then its worth.
i hope that makes sense....ok later
COMPLETE sense
08-03-2004, 01:59 AM
#17
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 750
Bags,
I understand that you only want SOLID info on why to invest time in building a twin turbo system. I'm not sure if this would fall under the SOLID catagory & I don't want to be repremanded for posting this so please show alittle restrant towards my post.
I think that even though it can or can't be benificial to TT a VQ there will always be people out there that want to be different & have something different then others. Or some people might just want to prove other people wrong. Heck someone might just want to be legit when they stick a Twin Turbo emblem on the back of there trunk lid. You never know the resoning behind someones decision making. Who knows maybe someone would want to TT a VQ simply to try and make the front cover of a magazine or win first place at a show. I know my post has nothing technical to back up the potential power improvements of TT a VQ, but since this is going to be the only TT Maxima thread I thought this would need to be placed here so others can factor in these options also.
I understand that you only want SOLID info on why to invest time in building a twin turbo system. I'm not sure if this would fall under the SOLID catagory & I don't want to be repremanded for posting this so please show alittle restrant towards my post.
I think that even though it can or can't be benificial to TT a VQ there will always be people out there that want to be different & have something different then others. Or some people might just want to prove other people wrong. Heck someone might just want to be legit when they stick a Twin Turbo emblem on the back of there trunk lid. You never know the resoning behind someones decision making. Who knows maybe someone would want to TT a VQ simply to try and make the front cover of a magazine or win first place at a show. I know my post has nothing technical to back up the potential power improvements of TT a VQ, but since this is going to be the only TT Maxima thread I thought this would need to be placed here so others can factor in these options also.
08-03-2004, 12:13 PM
#18
Originally Posted by nostrixoxide
Bags,
I understand that you only want SOLID info on why to invest time in building a twin turbo system. I'm not sure if this would fall under the SOLID catagory & I don't want to be repremanded for posting this so please show alittle restrant towards my post.
I think that even though it can or can't be benificial to TT a VQ there will always be people out there that want to be different & have something different then others. Or some people might just want to prove other people wrong. Heck someone might just want to be legit when they stick a Twin Turbo emblem on the back of there trunk lid. You never know the resoning behind someones decision making. Who knows maybe someone would want to TT a VQ simply to try and make the front cover of a magazine or win first place at a show. I know my post has nothing technical to back up the potential power improvements of TT a VQ, but since this is going to be the only TT Maxima thread I thought this would need to be placed here so others can factor in these options also.
I understand that you only want SOLID info on why to invest time in building a twin turbo system. I'm not sure if this would fall under the SOLID catagory & I don't want to be repremanded for posting this so please show alittle restrant towards my post.
I think that even though it can or can't be benificial to TT a VQ there will always be people out there that want to be different & have something different then others. Or some people might just want to prove other people wrong. Heck someone might just want to be legit when they stick a Twin Turbo emblem on the back of there trunk lid. You never know the resoning behind someones decision making. Who knows maybe someone would want to TT a VQ simply to try and make the front cover of a magazine or win first place at a show. I know my post has nothing technical to back up the potential power improvements of TT a VQ, but since this is going to be the only TT Maxima thread I thought this would need to be placed here so others can factor in these options also.
I am not saying it can't be done. Heck, I seriously thought about it for a week. The main thing I want to do, is cut down on the repeat stuff. And a TT maxima is a REPEAT.
I would LOVE for someone to roll up with a TT maxima. I think it'd be very cool. But, MOST of the people talking about it don't know how hard it really is.
And yes being the 1st or on a magazine is very cool. This thread has the normal maxima.org person in mind. The person thinking about new stuff and trying to see what he/she can come up with. With that in mind, I made this thread to have the info in a central location.
08-03-2004, 01:12 PM
#19
i could throw together a tt setup pretty easily on my maxima due to the manifold setup i have. since it would be pretty unique and since there are a lot of people that seem to want to see it done, i could use my spare time to make a new crossover pipe that would allow for two turbo each with their own manifold. might be a fun project
oh yeah, about forgot. another reason to do this could be to let everyone know in the end whether it was even worth it or not.
what would be some good sized turbos to do this? i'm thinking maybe the turbos from the 3000gt vr4 but, i'm not sure. any thoughts?
oh yeah, about forgot. another reason to do this could be to let everyone know in the end whether it was even worth it or not.
what would be some good sized turbos to do this? i'm thinking maybe the turbos from the 3000gt vr4 but, i'm not sure. any thoughts?
08-03-2004, 06:56 PM
#20
Originally Posted by mtcookson
what would be some good sized turbos to do this? i'm thinking maybe the turbos from the 3000gt vr4 but, i'm not sure. any thoughts?
08-03-2004, 10:20 PM
#22
Originally Posted by mtcookson
ahh, ok. that should work pretty well. how cheap can you get those for?
id sell you my other set but the motor they are on isnt anywhere close to me right now so i cant really get them off.
08-04-2004, 06:18 PM
#23
As was stated before, the general reason for using TT setups is to reduce lag, however since the early 90s when twin turbo cars were prevalent, improvements in turbo technology have been such that turbo lag is minimal, almost nonexistent nowadays. Hell a normal t3/t4 like Hal has boost onset at like 1800rpm I believe he said. You start using a higher end ball bearing turbo, such as a GT series or something along those lines, and boost onset goes even lower for a similarly sized unit.
These advances make the advantages of TT setups a thing of the past, such is the reason all the TT guys end up switching to a single larger turbo. They don't lose any of the low end punch they had with their factory tt setup (assuming they size the turbo within reason, I'm not talking about the T-88 supras and stuff here) and they have more topend too.
Also anyone who seriously has the means and knowhow to TT a maxima is not going to be the one coming here saying "hey i want to TT maxima tell me how to do it" so I think the consolidation of this info into one thread is a good idea. Those that know what they are doing dont need a thread to tell them how to do it, and those that don't have a clue can look in one simple place and find all the answers they seek.
These advances make the advantages of TT setups a thing of the past, such is the reason all the TT guys end up switching to a single larger turbo. They don't lose any of the low end punch they had with their factory tt setup (assuming they size the turbo within reason, I'm not talking about the T-88 supras and stuff here) and they have more topend too.
Also anyone who seriously has the means and knowhow to TT a maxima is not going to be the one coming here saying "hey i want to TT maxima tell me how to do it" so I think the consolidation of this info into one thread is a good idea. Those that know what they are doing dont need a thread to tell them how to do it, and those that don't have a clue can look in one simple place and find all the answers they seek.
08-06-2004, 12:30 PM
#24
Originally Posted by Nealoc187
As was stated before, the general reason for using TT setups is to reduce lag, however since the early 90s when twin turbo cars were prevalent, improvements in turbo technology have been such that turbo lag is minimal, almost nonexistent nowadays. Hell a normal t3/t4 like Hal has boost onset at like 1800rpm I believe he said. You start using a higher end ball bearing turbo, such as a GT series or something along those lines, and boost onset goes even lower for a similarly sized unit.
These advances make the advantages of TT setups a thing of the past, such is the reason all the TT guys end up switching to a single larger turbo. They don't lose any of the low end punch they had with their factory tt setup (assuming they size the turbo within reason, I'm not talking about the T-88 supras and stuff here) and they have more topend too.
Also anyone who seriously has the means and knowhow to TT a maxima is not going to be the one coming here saying "hey i want to TT maxima tell me how to do it" so I think the consolidation of this info into one thread is a good idea. Those that know what they are doing dont need a thread to tell them how to do it, and those that don't have a clue can look in one simple place and find all the answers they seek.
These advances make the advantages of TT setups a thing of the past, such is the reason all the TT guys end up switching to a single larger turbo. They don't lose any of the low end punch they had with their factory tt setup (assuming they size the turbo within reason, I'm not talking about the T-88 supras and stuff here) and they have more topend too.
Also anyone who seriously has the means and knowhow to TT a maxima is not going to be the one coming here saying "hey i want to TT maxima tell me how to do it" so I think the consolidation of this info into one thread is a good idea. Those that know what they are doing dont need a thread to tell them how to do it, and those that don't have a clue can look in one simple place and find all the answers they seek.
if someone makes a tt kit (what im currently attempting) then i have no doubt in my mind that someone here will find a way to make it better. of course the turbos im using are outdated but once the layout has been made the possibilites in upgrading to more advanced technology will be present. just like when nigel made his kit, people are finding ways to improve upon it and get more power in mroe effecient ways, thus the same would occur with a tt setup. i dont want to think too far ahead though, its better to just go step by step and see what happens. i jsut think it would be great if a tt setup was made because once the hard part is done all the problems can be weeded out.
anyways, i think this a good thread and im glad people are being serious and not just knocking down on the idea. the reinforcement of the forum gives lots of confidence to those attempting new things and im sure many will be able to reap the benfits of such a project.
08-06-2004, 01:27 PM
#27
I would love to see some more bidget prijects for the max. Just like hondas take the initiative to do just about everything to their cars. Nothing everything is good but from 10 bad things comes something really outstanding.
08-19-2004, 07:56 PM
#29
Originally Posted by 02icarus
"pipe that is ~1400 degrees F. "
thats 760 C.....aluminum melts at 660 C. What pipe would you use...?
thats 760 C.....aluminum melts at 660 C. What pipe would you use...?
08-23-2004, 04:43 PM
#30
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2002
Posts: 179
I think that the only reason someone would used forced induction on a car that did not use it originally would be for ultra high performance applications. One large single turbo is proven to be the better perfoming set-up in terms of drag set-up. If you want more boost, go with one bigger turbo. If it won't spin, well, thats what Nos is for.
08-23-2004, 06:29 PM
#31
if you have very high end spooling your turbo is too big or you are just trying to be a dyno queen like the supras. in the end, there's no reason why a single turbo setup shouldn't be as good as a twin. it should spool as fast and have just the same top end.
11-27-2005, 09:46 PM
#32
first off sorry for digging up a dyno, but would a 2 to 1 intercooler solve the dual charge pipe problem or would it screw with the air flow?
also has anyone ever attempted using the 300zx intake manifold before?
(^ just popped up in my head)
also has anyone ever attempted using the 300zx intake manifold before?
(^ just popped up in my head)
11-28-2005, 11:23 AM
#33
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 174
Originally Posted by PTownMax
also has anyone ever attempted using the 300zx intake manifold before?
(^ just popped up in my head)
11-28-2005, 09:25 PM
#35
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2005
Posts: 174
The main reasons it wouldn't work:
The dual throttle bodies, there would be no way to mount it.
Also in respect to mounting it, it was shaped to fit the engine bay differently- there really is no way to use that manifold with a VQ series engine.
The dual throttle bodies, there would be no way to mount it.
Also in respect to mounting it, it was shaped to fit the engine bay differently- there really is no way to use that manifold with a VQ series engine.
11-28-2005, 09:45 PM
#36
ok i looked at 300z engine bay i see how thats no option now, but if you ran two pipes in the intercooler and ran one out to 1 throttle body, then would that not solve the problem with dual throttle bodies?
please do not lock this tread i will be needing it for questions as i further my progress
please do not lock this tread i will be needing it for questions as i further my progress
11-28-2005, 11:00 PM
#37
Originally Posted by PTownMax
but if you ran two pipes in the intercooler and ran one out to 1 throttle body, then would that not solve the problem with dual throttle bodies?
02-04-2006, 11:29 AM
#40
its been a long while since ive been on this site, ive been too preoccupied trying to rebuild my z over and over - that car does not ever allow one to just relax and enjoy it, i can tell you that. ive collected almost everything i need to begin my twin turbo setup less an intercooler, injectors, and oil lines. i may hold off on the injectors but that revolves around a problem ive run into. id like to get this setup started within a week or two but the only way i can do that is if i am not forced to purchase injectors, which in effect requires an ecu as well. the turbos i have (garrett t22's) are set for around 9psi stock (external wastegates) and i cant afford to run that much boost on stock injectors and my pos exhaust setup (which would also need upgrading if i ran 9 psi). so im trying to devise a method to lower the setting of the stock wastegates so that i can run a safe amout of boost (6-7psi) without the need to upgrade my exhaust and fuel delivery system beyond the basic requirements. if anyone has any solutions on how i can modify or 'fool' the wastegates so that they open earlier than stock i would be very appreciative. regardless, if i cant find a way, i will just have to save up enough to get those injectors, ecu, and exhaust so that i can have this beast complete, im jsut getting tired of waiting so long to get everything collected i want to begin so that i can get this off my chest and begin on my other project. if anyone has any interesting ideas please share, thanks.