Has anyone got these working together?

Tim at ACP (autocarparts.com) is trying to make them play, but no luck so far.

I had him install the J&S between the emanage and the diodes going to the coils.

From his emails, it looks like the emanage isn't triggering the J&S, so I had him set the jumper JP2 to 2-3, which is 12v pullup resistors on the output, but that didn't do it.

Thanks for any help.

John

 

Have any of the 350z guys done it?

 

ACP is doing it on their 350z.

 

MardiGrasMax and BigDogJonx have/had both working. I believe others too.

They didn't use the eManage ignition harness for the connection though with the J&S, which sounds like what you're trying to do?

 

I really wouldn't excpect the emanage to trigger the J&S we had so much trouble even getting it to control the OE coils...I assume you all are using the J&S rather than emanage ignition control because of the per cylinder retard?

 

just got my Safeguard (thanks again John!). 2006 is the year of boost so hehe I can report back then. n20 for now.

 

AFAIK, no one has the two working on the ignition channels together.

 

Why would you want to run the e-Manage ignition harness if you have the J&S? Just wondering, seems redundant to me...

 

EM to fine tune
J&S for protection

You can walk closer to the edge with the J&S as a Safeguard and thus producing more power ith out the risk of engine damage. If your hard core about power its a must have!

 

0r if you made the mistake of getting anecu with advanced timing before deciding to go boost...

 

I suppose the map in e-Manage allows a bit more flexibility than the J&S.

 

if you have an ECU with timing already advanced(ie JWT, etc) I still would not run any boost on that ECU even if using Emanage, J&S or not. IMO you'd be better off getting a stock ECU and then running Emanage/J&S. IMO its more of risk because you have no way of knowing where JWT has seriously advanced the timing on the maps and the Emanage or J&S might not be able to pull enough.

 

I disagree.

I'm having the TS ECU advance the whole curve especially in the low range and then the eManage to retard as needed. Eventually, a J&S would be nice, so you could run at the limit with the TS/eManage and have the J&S to fall back on if things get bad.

 

How does the eManage retard the timing? At what increments? If it sees knock and retards like the stock ecu/KS does, it will pull the timing WAY back. If that is the case, DAMAX has a point.

 

It can retard across all cylinders X-degrees or cylinder by cylinder AS NEEDED to stop detonation NOT like the factory ECU that just yanks tons of timing and then slowly advance back. The J&S is flexible in that it can pull X-degrees per psi or X-degrees per RPM for a total amount at a certain RPM.

The big difference/advantage is that the J&S can retard cylinder by cylinder vs. across all, so you can run MUCH much closer to the edge and then if detonation occurs, it will retard how many degrees it takes until detonation stops on the most detonation prone cylinder. eManage doesn't have that "Safeguard" mode to fall back on if your tuning is too agressive and you run into a bad batch of gas or high altitude, so you must over-retard to make sure you don't go anywhere near the detonation point for any conditions.

The map advantage of the eManage just allows you to preprogram in the retard exactly at which RPM or PSI you expect you'll need, so you'll need to be conservative. The J&S only allows that to a certain extent(not 16x16 increments), however it "automatically" retard once detonation occurs which eManage can't.

 

So both can be set for xx retard for rpm or boost. Nice. But if the emanage can't retard when detonation occurs, then you will have to rely on the stock ecu's ks? That would be bad. Which was my point because you said you didn't want to run the J&S until later. Correct??

So TS to advance timing down low + emanage to retard up high and rely on stock ecu's ks sensor.

Off hand, when you boost, how do you know you won't see knock fairly early in the rpm range and have to turn out all the TS ecu's advance anyway? Either by the eMan or stock ks? Once you see boost, I'm betting all the advanced timing will have to be pulled. If you have a turbo that gets into boost in the mid 2,000 range, you might just as well go with the stock ecu. For boost, it has more timing than you could want anyway.

 

I understand the basis and it makes sense, but still seems risky to me, but like you said J&S will back it up if it gets dangerous. from what I've seen on my own N/A maps I've done for my own car(Integra), the low end is where the ignition maps are the hottest....on my n/a map I'm running now based off a Dinan file made for the integra I have 40-43*+ total at some points in the low end as compared to 30-35* stock. thats the only thing worrying me, you have to really make sure you pull enough on the low end because these NA performance ECUs have BIG timing advances in the low end! but that will be interesting to see. I wish there was a way to see VQ timing in a "map form", it would be great to be able to see how much timing the ECU is pulling throughout the range.

 

OBD II scanner should be able to map it if you have one for a pc/labtop. Or even a Palm



http://forums.maxima.org/showthread.php?t=332205

 

Exactly. Until I can "afford" the J&S, I can use the $35 ignition harness to over-retard by RPM or Boost, but by sacrificing maximum power.

You don't want to rely on the stock ECU hearing the knock sensor. If enough timing is removed, it won't. I will pull out as much timing as necessary plus extra. TS advance may very well be over-ridden, but I'd rather remove what I can't use, then too not have advance when I can use it. The eManage MAY be able to advance timing, but so far I'm not convinced. If it can, then you don't really need the TS ECU unless you want the extended rev-limiter.

Boost on stock ECUs usually don't see knock below peak torque, so additional timing will be useful to help spoolup and low-end.

VQ35 FI kits run stock timing up to 6-7psi and they have more advanced timing then VQ30s.

 

For those who dont recall, I used a GF (now TS) NA ECU when I had my SC+NOS+AL/H20-Inj+J&S. It worked like a champ! 11.9, it cant be wrong!

 

Mardi~~>



^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!~US~!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

I guess the million $ question is, how much boost & timing can be run @ peak TQ?

I need to get with dixit and data log a run @ 7psi a partial throttle to see if there is any knock and to see what timing is. It's amazing how much power is on tap @ 1/2 throttle around 4500 rpm.

I only know what I see and feel on my, jay's, dixit's, erik's maximas. But, stock timing seems to be working very well. And once you touch the 10psi area, you need to think about pulling timing to be "safe".

And on the VQ35, when do they produce the 6-7psi? @ max tq? or lower?

 

Depends on car, airflow, turbo/IC efficiency, temp, weather conditions, gas octane quality, and many other things.

So, I would rather have too much advance from the stock/TS/whatever ECU and then use the eManage and eventually J&S pull what I can't use.

The way I plan it, I'll have TS advance the entire curve say 10-degrees over stock, and then I'll use the eManage to pull 2 degrees per psi, so I'd have stock timing by 5psi.

I'll try 1 degree/psi and play with retardxRPM until I get detonation to see where the limit is.

 

I guess after blowing my motor being stupid, I am a little cautious...lol

I understand what your saying. Good LUCK

 

I am interested in doing this as well. From looking at the wiring of the J&S unit it seems like the two should be able to work together. The J&S would have to come before the e-manage though, so the emanage will pull timing after the J&S has.

It would go like this:

ECU -> J&S -> E-Manage -> Coils

Has anybody tried this?

 

Anyone ever heard of this. Suppose to cost about $1500 for the top of the line model. http://www.enginemanagementsystem.com/

 

If I am reading Icy's post right, that backwards of what I was thinking.

ECU>Emanage>J&s>coils

That way if knock is detected, the J&S pulls timing

 

Now that I think about it, I don't think it matters either way. I only did it in that order because I would rather the J&S see the output directly from the ecu than from the e-manage. Your setup and my setup will ultimately have the same output to the coils, no matter which order we put it in.

 

Advancing the timing is really a risky area. I never did that for one reason, my turbo started spooling at 1300-1400rpm. That left me no room to advance. At one time i advanced the timing 3degrees and at 2500rpm I was knocking because at 2500 i was already pushing 7psi of boost. Alot of this comes in play once you find out where your turbo starts boosting on the RPM chart.

Dixit

 

John, I was thinking...

How about putting the EM after the J&S. Would the EM run in waste spark mode or would it freak out becasue the ignition parameters are based on the rotary switch setting on the main unit? Somthing to try?

 

Good point Dixit, I doubt I'll have >7psi until 3000+rpm with the turbo I'm choosing.

 

Matt:

In general, the J&S should be last before the coils. The trigger pulses coming into the unit will be spaced every 120°. When the unit retards, the output pulses to the coils will no longer be equally spaced.

Let's say the unit retards one cylinder 5°. If you look at the two non-retarded cylinders bracketing the retarded one, you would see 125° space, then 115° space. Of course, the total is still 240°.

The emanage is expecting the pulses to arrive every 120°. Unevenly spaced signals will probably confuse the emanage.

If an MSD 6AL (rev limit option) is used with our single coil unit, its rev limiter will trip early when the J&S retards individual cylinders. Same thing happens on the Mazda Miata. The factory rev limit is 7200, but we found that it would trip early if the unit retards individually. To prevent this, I modified the software to switch to retard all mode above 6500.

 

I have seen concerns in other forums (other boards, not maxima.org) about how well the stock knock sensor is able to detect detonation at high rpm where engine noise starts to interfere with the KS's ability to detect detonation, resulting in a lot of false positives and unneeded timing retard. Some car manufacturers even limit the knock-sensitive timing portion of closed loop operation to the low-mid rpm range for that reason and go to fixed timing maps at high rpm. I don't know if the VQ30 was designed this way or not, although I know some people say that the KS isn't used at all (by the oem ecu) during WOT operation.

John at J&S, can you shed some light concerning this?

 

The knock sensor is basically a microphone. It's up to the ECU to determine if the sounds are from detonation or not.

The goal of a knock control system is to detect knock that you can't hear, while ignoring engine noise that you can hear.

Many ECU's ignore the knock sensor above a certain RPM, to avoid false retard due to engine noise. It's also a good idea to ignore the sensor during deceleration, or when the engine is lightly loaded. Unloaded, the pistons will rock in the bore at TDC, causing piston slap, which will set off a knock sensor.

The J&S knock detector is a software algorithm, running on a 68HC11 processor. It also controls timing, but a significant amount of its time is devoted to knock detection.

 

John,

So, wouldn't it be best to relocate the OEM knock sensor where it won't hear anything that could be interpreted as knock(zip tie somewhere), while using a 2nd knock sensor in the stock location for the J&S Safeguard to monitor and retard as necessary?

Once your unit is installed, the stock ECU-to-knock sensor interaction isn't necessary, so to eliminate false knock retard at high rpm, might as well remove it from the equation.

 

Actually, better yet, your unit could have a plug for the stock ECU-to-knock sensor connection to "condition" the output signal to the ECU. That way you don't need two knock sensors.

Also, your unit directly overrides the ignition pulses to retard vs. indirectly tricking the stock ECU, correct?

 

the sensativity adjustment is a key part of the install. I had to adjust the setting because if I bang shift it would pick that up as knock. Now its golden!

 

Can't argue with success. I suppose you start out with maximum sensitivity and work your way down to maximize power while keeping a safe amount of sensitivity. I have the feeling it's one of those situations where you make maximum power just before the engine burns up.

Also, I was under the impression the J&S used the stock knock sensor, since that is tuned to listen for the particular frequency that detonation in a VQ30 produces. Or does the J&S have the ability to be tuned to listen for a particular frequency as well as amplitude?

 

Tapping into a factory knock sensor is a good thing. No extra cost, it's already matched to the engine, and you don't have to crawl under the car looking for a place to mount another one.

GM says there are three basic types of knock sensors. They refer to them as narrow band (spike resonant), broadband resonant, and non-resonant. GM chose broadband resonant sensors, and they are made in three frequencies that cover all their applications.

In theory, tuned sensors would reject engine noise, but they don't. Tap on them with a screwdriver, and they resonate. Was the screwdriver knocking? Same thing with forged pistons. If they slap in the bore, a tuned knock sensor will resonate.

The sensor used on the Maxima/350Z is non resonant, and is similar to the Bosch sensor.

Our detector works equally well with either a tuned or untuned sensor. Amplitude is the primary indicator of knock.

 

John,

You said the factory ECU will retard at high rpm/noisy instances, so why not eliminate that connection and just use the FACTORY knock sensor in the factory location for the J&S?

I understand about knock sensors being tuned to a particular frequency for a particular engine. No, need for another one besides stock.

Again, does the J&S directly via ignition pulses control timing or indirectly via tricking the ECU by causing a knock signal on the "tapped" knock sensor wire?