Went to Mineike to get my EGT gauge put in and i was talkin to the guy about a 3"...I asked for a price of 3" mandrel bent from the end of the y-pipe back, including one resonator, test pipe and a muffler...The guy said he doenst do mandral bent 3" and it really is hard to come by...its it really important to go mandral bent or no ??

Price was $380 for aluminized with a resonator, test pipe and a muffler NOT mandral Bent, installed...

anyone have a good reccomendation for a muffler ?? tryin to keep it as quiet as possible...flowmaster ?? part # ?

-matt

 

going 3 inch with pressure bent is pretty pointless as it would inhibit the flow pretty badly. you can order 3 inch mandrel bends online but they definitely aren't cheap. definitely do go with anything but a perfect 3 inch all of the way. not only will it increase flow for more power but if you're turbocharged it will decrease turbo lag.

absolutely stay away from flowmaster. their mufflers do the exact opposite of their name. the "reflector" setup inside causes high backpressure and decreases flow quite badly. what you want is a straight through muffler for the best flow. magnaflow makes some real good ones. if you're turbo the magnaflow won't be too loud. not sure what other mufflers are out there that flow good (not saying there aren't any) i just don't know of them as i've been happy with magnaflow.

 

So Stay away from pressure bends. ?? anyone else care to comment...
This guy at minieke said that mandral bent is gonna be hard to come by and fairly expensive...

I have a s/c by the way

-matt

 

For a quiet muffler I suggest a RS*R EX mag 80mm inlet.

 

http://www.mufflex-performance.com/

They are near Trenton and will mandrel-bend you an exhaust. I got my cat-back done there... the put your car up on the lift, take some measurements, bend some pipe, test fit, re-bend, etc. etc. until it fits good then weld it together and bolt it up. I'm NA so I didn't really care about mandrel bent, just got a 2.5" crush bent exhaust plus my 2k muffler welded on the end for $150. I have a few other friends who have gone there and are happy with the work.

 

We made 40+whp by switching to a 3" mandrel bent exhaust and test pipe on Shadow's car. We are still using a 2.5" downpipe btw b/c there's just no clearance on an auto turbo setup. We just bought the bends from JC Whitney and had the exhaust shop weld it up and it was pretty cheap(IIRC ~180 in labor),

Straight through will give you the most performance but it's unbearable w/o a resonator almost no matter what muffler you choose. We had to go back and have an 18" resonator installed just aft of the test pipe.

 

Have any links/data/comparisons to back that up?

Yes, Flowmasters don't flow as much as ANY straight through type muffler, however they do provide great flow/low restriction *AND* adequate sound suppression.

 

How much did all the piping cost through jc whitney? im still stuck between doing a 3'' cat-back or goin with an eectric cut-out. any thoughts...

 

Just get the warpspeed 3" exhaust its a perfect fit and a good bang for the buck!

 

good info about mufflers, i thought flowmaster would have been the best bang with sound/flow being really up there, especially when going wit 3"

 

We spent about $100 on the pipes sections themselves. They run $10 a piece and the straight section is like $8 for 6ft. Throw in the welding for about another hundred and any flanges, mufflers, resonators, etc and you're done.

 

i'll have to find the place that i read all of it at. i do remember that on the piping you gain 50% more area when going with 3 inch over 2.5 inch. when using pressure bends they can easily get crushed down to that size and are turned into odd shapes. so basically if the bend did cause the pipe to go from 3 to 2.5 you would be losing 50% of the area in the pipe and in a bend no less.

i believe i might have read the pipe info at www.z31.com. i'll have to search around there and find it again.

 

i think he meant proof about the flowmaster being as restrictive as u describe it to be. Its well known that pressure bending defeats the purpose of going 3" cause the bends normally look like 2.5"....

i prefer flowmaster for sound and descent flow, not sure if anyone can give a better recommendation for a quiet muffler 3"

 

here it is - http://nicoclub.com/zerothread?id=84848

"According to the flowbench, two of the best flowing units you can buy are the Walker Dyno Max and the Cyclone Sonic. They even slightly out flow the straight through designs from HKS and GReddy BL series. Amongst the worst, are the Thrush Turbo and Flow Master mufflers. We'll flow some of the newer mufflers as they become available at our local Chief auto."

 

So from that statement, you conclude to "absolutely stay away from flowmaster. their mufflers do the exact opposite of their name. the "reflector" setup inside causes high backpressure and decreases flow quite badly.".

Saaay what?

 

they tested the mufflers on a flowbench and said the flowmasters were among the worst in flow, which is what i was saying.

 

Did they show the results? I see this same information linked all over the net, but no results.

http://www.nsxprime.com/FAQ/Miscella...austtheory.htm
http://webhome.idirect.com/~trini/car/muffler.html
http://www.overboost.com/story.asp?id=56

We know flow is typically a trade-off with sound suppression, so what CFM are we talking about here? That is what really matters.

They said "worse" then the Walker Dyno Max, Cyclone Sonic, HKS, and GReddy BL, ie straight through LOUD mufflers NOT the worst flowing muffler made and to avoid at all cost.

 

yea, i guess its all about the person whether they would sacrifice a few horses for a quieter system. I still feel flowmaster would make a great choice unless its like a 15+ hp loss and even then its still debatable...IMO

 

I've seen the insides of Flowmasters and they aren't restrictive compared to ANYTHING but straight through perforated core mufflers especially their single chamber or race series. Those however are loud and then compareable to straight through types.

I just think people who compare a 3-chamber delta flow 50+ series or whatever to a fart pipe don't understand the trade-offs. To lump ALL Flowmasters into a "should be absolutely avoided" category don't have a clue about the different variations of mufflers available and the advantages/disadvantages of each design.

 

the flowmaster i had was flat out loud, sounded terrible on a small engine, and probably worst of was more expensive than my magnaflow and it (the flowmaster) rusted very fast. the magnaflow cost much less to install, sounded a lot better, and is not that loud at all. with a turbo setup it won't be. i'm running a straight exhaust from the turbo to the muffler and it is very far from being loud.

from my personaly experiences and with the testing on the flow bench i personally think flowmaster should be avoided. lower flow in the exhaust system will increase turbo lag if equipped. if you care about that sort of thing you want the highest flow exhaust setup you can get that's "legal" and whatnot.

 

I've heard numerous Flowmasters in person on header/exhaust cars some before/after not to mention the few here on Maximas like Studmans' 60-series. They are definitely NOT loud as long as you go 50-series or higher. Any straight through type including Magnaflows ARE loud and typically drone.

Rust may be a concern in your area, but not here and if it was they have SS ones now that won't rust. For $89 a Flowmaster aluminized is hard to beat. Anyways, how is that relevant to the restrictive conversation?

Again, show me the ABSOLUTELY convincing flow bench results that make you "personally" think flowmaster should be avoided at all costs and are so restrictive. Then show me a less restrictive muffler with equivalent sound levels that doesn't use crappy packing that degrades over time and gets LOUDER.

Anyone that has seen the inside of a Flowmaster can tell you they are FAR from the restrictive butt plugs you make them out to be and are actually suprisingly quiet compared to what you would think for simply a few baffles/chambers.

 

how does sticking metal pieces right in the flow of the exhaust not make them restrictive? as for loudness you are right, anything less than the 50 is very loud however i have a maganflow straight through muffler and it is hardly loud in my book. the only time the thing ever drones is when i keep it at 2000 rpm which is way below the rpm i cruise at. any other rpm and i can't even hear it in the car.

also, the flowmaster i bought cost me ~150 installed. that was for the non-ss muffler that rusted quite fast. the ss magnaflow muffler cost me 115 installed and has been way better overall.

as for the flowbench results, i would post them if they were in that article but they are not and i don't have any access to overboost.com to even see if they have them on there.

 

So you don't know and are basing it off that ambiguous statment from the article without any data. That's what I thought. Man don't spread misinformation when you don't have all the facts ESPECIALLY that weak stuff. Yes, ALL straight through mufflers will outflow the Flowmaster or similar, however I argue/support that the added restriction and sound dampening is well worth the small price you pay in hp max around 10%, if that I'd guess.

Anyways, maybe I'll get off my lazy **** and explain the different types of mufflers and how they each work, but don't hold your breath. It's a dead horse already and there are far too many better sources out there to explain it.

I know you don't care, since you already have a Magnaflow and are happy with it, good for you, but you might look into how other non-straight through, ie multi-chamber, type absorbtion and reflection mufflers flow air and dampen sound. It's worth it and easily shows how even the many "turbo" mufflers out there claimed to be low restriction/great flow use internal baffling.

Just don't go "quoting" some extensive scientific study that definitively proved Flowmasters are the butt plugs of the muffler industry. You know logically they wouldn't be in business nor so popular if that was true. ALL muffler companies shoot to beat them for a reason.

 

i'm not spreading any misinformation. i said the flowmaster doesn't flow that good and its true. i'm not saying that its as restrictive as the stock muffler or anything like that. what i'm saying is that it does not flow as good as other mufflers out there which was proven according to the people who made that article (which is www.overboost.com). i'm sorry that you must have visible data to agree with something that only takes common sense to figure out. you stick something in the flow of the exhaust it will inhibit flow. its as easy as that. again though, i'm not saying the thing is a damn butt plug. i am not saying it is more restrictive than stock. i am saying that it is not as free flowing as other mufflers on the market. this leads me to my next point.

i agree that the *power* gains would be minimal between a flowmaster and straight through muffler but for turbo guys (and i'm basing all of this on a turbo setup) a straight through would be better. a straight through setup would still be pretty quiet due to the turbo but most importantly the reason to go with a straight through over the flowmaster, since we know the straight through outflows it, is turbo lag. when your exhaust flows better there is less turbo lag.

having less turbo lag could get you more power sooner so you could actually bring up the argument that a straight through does increase power a lot more over a more restrictive muffler... but i won't get into that.

 

Actually, you said...."absolutely stay away from flowmaster. their mufflers do the exact opposite of their name. the "reflector" setup inside causes high backpressure and decreases flow quite badly."

then...

"they tested the mufflers on a flowbench and said the flowmasters were among the worst in flow, which is what i was saying."

...when in actually you don't know WHICH Flowmaster was compared nor how much less flow it produced. Therefore, you ARE spreading misinformation because you had NO DATA that supports that. All you had was that WHATEVER model could have been a tripple chamber delta flow 500000-series for all you know flowed 50cfm less air. Do you know if that makes a noticeable difference in lag, noticeable difference in actually driving, or anything relevant? No.

It's not common sense apparently. Compare apples to apples, ie multi-chamber perforated multi tube mufflers to the internal baffles of a Flowmaster and tell me how a Flowmaster is more restrictive. You have SMALL holes which the air must flow through from one tube to another or change up to 180-degrees in direction on absorbtion type mufflers. The only difference with your Magnaflow is that it only uses a single tube and doesn't change direction of the flow, which limits the amount of sound absorbtion through the small holes in the perforated tube to the LENGTH of the muffler. Unless you get a 4-5ft muffler, it isn't going to be as quiet.

Just depends on if it's worth the sound dampening penalty to the buyer. Again, buyer, so I wouldn't go about saying "absolutely avoid" this or that muffler unless you have ACTUAL data that shows why muffler A is quieter AND flows more then muffler B, therefore justly recommending they should absolutely avoid muffler B.

 

it doesn't matter which version of the flowmaster that it is (unless they make a straight through design). anytime you stick something in the flow of the exhaust you will decrease the flow (you would also increase backpressure), always. there is no possible way to stick an object in the flow of air and retain a high flow (comparing to a straight through design). (also, by object i mean the way flowmaster does it and sticks a piece of metal to reflect the exhaust. i know that a flat piece of metal would hardly change squat but when the exhaust has to slam right into a horizontal piece of metal, that decreases flow).

comparing apples to apples you are right, a multichamber muffler wouldn't outflow a flowmaster. when comparing those two the flowmaster does win. if you want something that can muffle the sound like a stock muffler does a flowmaster would be a better choice, however, the fact still remains that with a turbo setup a straight through muffler isn't that loud. the flowmaster will be quieter but the straight through setup isn't so loud that its annoying. (this is basing on my current setup. drone is at an absolute minimum and i've never been told by anyone that my exhaust is too loud. i also don't think it is very loud from what i can tell inside the car.)


i guess i should probably state that the reason i said don't go with flowmaster is for all out performance. it wouldn't be the most logical to get a very free flowing exhaust (3 inch, mandrel bent, etc.) and then have a muffler that isn't the highest flowing out there.

imo the best setup for a quiet daily driver that can still perform good would be a regular exhaust (2.5 inch piping, cat, resonator, and a non-performance quiet muffler or whatever you want) but up front off of the downpipe, or whatever you're using, install an electric cutout. when you want all out power open up the cutout and hit it.

 

hey, just leave the muffler off for ultimate performance.

what about those spiral design ones?
http://www.jegs.com/cgi-bin/ncommerc...38&prmenbr=361

 

i actually found that for the least noise in the cabin dump the exhaust in the front. my exhaust fell off of the downpipe due to a not so good flange design and it actually was a bit more quiet inside at all rpm's. sounded pretty cool too

the problem i see with the spiral design is that there is still stuff in the flow of the exhaust. now... if the spiral section was powered and could flow enough to pull the exhaust out then maybe.

does anyone know if it is possible to pull the exhaust out "too fast"? like for instance if something like that was made to where it sucked out the exhaust is it possible to suck out too much exhaust?

 

http://www.autospeed.com/cms/A_0383/...popularArticle

 

It does if it's not the race version, but I hope they were at least that fair comparing to those other straight-through types.

I wouldn't lump that under "multi-chamber", but I know what you're saying.

Agree...turbo cars have the sound dampening of the turbo, so they can get away with more flow, less dampening muffler.

And I would have agreed with that...to a point. I'd like to see actual data on some of the <50-series single chamber Flowmaster or race series vs. straight through to see the noise and flow difference penalty.

EXACTLY...ATP makes something better though IMO.

 

I read that...they tested the Walker/DynoMax, but not the Flowmaster IIRC.

Here is a DynoMax vs. Flowmaster 40 and 50 series noise comparison, however it's on a NA car though:
http://www.mustangmonthly.com/techarticles/30401/

 

if its the one i'm thinking of (the atp boost actuated cutout, right?) then i personally think the electric is the way to go (again for a turbo setup).

this again comes down to flow for spooling. with the electric cutout you could have full open exhaust for very good spooling right off the line whereas the boost actuated cutout only opens when there is boost which means the turbo has already started spooling. the atp one is also a bit expensive compared to the electric cutout i've seen... i just need to find the link now

if that isn't the one you're talking about let me know though.

 

It's my understanding it's going to be a compromise.

 

electric cutout - http://www.mccordcg.com/mpp/mpp.htm

from what i understand on their site its 110 dollars for a 3 inch cutout.

 

Yes, that's true, however I wonder if the restriction is considerable since the exhaust path is still there to divide the airflow and most 2.5" setups don't restrict the turbo until several lbs. of boost or RPM have built up.

I'd rather have it automatic to boost. Personal preference, but all out performance, you'll probably get some better spool with the e-cutout.

 

I don't like ATPs "T-pipe" though.

I'd buy ATP main valve and actuator only and rather use a split y-piece like the e-cutouts use.

 

i have a crappy 2.5 inch pressure bent exhaust at the moment and i noticed a pretty big change in lag time when running open downpipe and full exhaust. not sure if there would be the same difference when using a 3 inch exhaust or not.

the only thing i worry about with the cutout setup is turbulence. the way i've seen most people set these up is they run a pipe at a 90 degree angle right off the exhaust which goes to the cutout. almost need some sort of valve setup that allows a smooth path for the cutout and the regular exhaust.

since no one makes those from what i've seen, my setup with the cutout would basically be setup as if i were only running the cutout, then adding the exhaust. so it would be smooth, straight piping to the cutout and from there cut a hole in the side of the pipe for the exhaust out the back. this would hopefully deter the possible turbulence caused when the cutout is out.

edit: didn't see that last post. yeah, i would want a sort of y-pipe setup for the cutout instead of a t or like i said above setup the t to where the exhaust to the back gets the more restrictive path. either way would work for me as long as i have the maximum possible flow out the cutout. the regular exhaust i could care less about

 

Ooooh...I like THAT better.

I think the partial opening of the valve and the additional path of a 2.5" exhaust together would reduce backpressure to allow quick spool. Maybe not e-cutout reduction, but enough for me.

BTW, once you get a 3" mandrel bent exhaust with your Magnaflow...come back here and say how loud it is.

 

ehh... it'll probably get quite loud. i was looking into getting a 3 inch magnaflow race series muffler as apparently that's the only series with that size and it looks the same on the outside but i'm sure they have next to nothing on the inside.

if i do the cutout thing though i may just get some real quiet muffler. can't decide what to do.

 

damn... now i finally know what you were talking about when you said the straight through mufflers are really loud. picked up an 85 300zx turbo for my younger brother today and that thing has a round straight through muffler. holy ****ing **** was that thing annoying. droned at nearly every rpm in the car.

the straight through magnaflow that i have is an oval design instead of that round crap. it definitely makes it much quieter. the setup between my maxima and the Z are damn near identical. same engine, same turbo, i think it has the same exhaust setup, but the muffler is round whereas mine is oval. HUGE difference. honestly, if i had to choose between a muffler like this and a flowmaster i would go with a flowmaster. no doubt about it.