J&S safe guard
03-09-2005, 08:53 AM
#1
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J&S safe guard
If I understand how it works correctly, if one were to use the J&S unit then timing would always be advanced to right before detonation. Sounds like the best way to retard timing to me. JWT obviously does not change the timing to each individual set up. It could either be retarded way to early, way to late, and way to much in general. With e-manage you don't really know exactly how the +/- function is affecting timing, ie; -1 does not really mean 1 degree. You would have to log timing before and after the adjustments with a consult or something similar to reall know what a -1 setting would do to timing.
But with the J&S timing would always be advanced to right before the point of detonation, allowing the best off throttle response and avoid unessary retard under boost.
Am I right here? Is this just not used more often my boosted guys here because of the cost reason?
But with the J&S timing would always be advanced to right before the point of detonation, allowing the best off throttle response and avoid unessary retard under boost.
Am I right here? Is this just not used more often my boosted guys here because of the cost reason?
03-09-2005, 09:19 AM
#2
Originally Posted by I30tMikeD
If I understand how it works correctly, if one were to use the J&S unit then timing would always be advanced to right before detonation. Sounds like the best way to retard timing to me. JWT obviously does not change the timing to each individual set up. It could either be retarded way to early, way to late, and way to much in general. With e-manage you don't really know exactly how the +/- function is affecting timing, ie; -1 does not really mean 1 degree. You would have to log timing before and after the adjustments with a consult or something similar to reall know what a -1 setting would do to timing.
But with the J&S timing would always be advanced to right before the point of detonation, allowing the best off throttle response and avoid unessary retard under boost.
Am I right here? Is this just not used more often my boosted guys here because of the cost reason?
But with the J&S timing would always be advanced to right before the point of detonation, allowing the best off throttle response and avoid unessary retard under boost.
Am I right here? Is this just not used more often my boosted guys here because of the cost reason?
The only drawback that I can see in doing it this way (other than the cost factor) is that your engine timing is going to be very dependent on sensitivity of the knock sensor to extraneous noise at high rpm. The J&S allows you to set the sensitivity, but if you are conservative and make it too sensitive, then you may end up with timing retard based on timing chain noise, for example. If you are more daring and turn down the sensitivity, you may end up not retarding when detonation occurs.
With that said, it seems that people like Mardigrasmax are able to set an appropriate sensitivity that works to produce power and still be safe.
03-09-2005, 11:11 AM
#4
Originally Posted by slimer
how do you advance the timing with the j&s? do you just turn a ****, set it and forget it?
03-09-2005, 02:06 PM
#5
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I should receive mine by this week. In my opinion i think this is the best way to go, Like Mike said JWT might retarded way to early, way to late, and way to much in general and the e-manage is a guessing game. J&S is like a safety net, if it senses detonation it will pull timing. just my .02
03-09-2005, 08:38 PM
#7
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Originally Posted by Nealoc187
Does J&S just use the stock knock sensor?
03-09-2005, 09:23 PM
#8
I believe it does use the factory knock sensor and perhaps the cam position sensor (? or maybe some other sensor) to decipher which cylinder just knocked, and retard timing for that cylinder on the next revolution.
03-10-2005, 04:12 AM
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Does this mean you could run your JWT N/A ecu program (advanced timing) and use the J&S to pull timing when the boost comes on hard? That way, you get advanced timing, extended rev limiter, but without the jacked up JWT boost ecu program.
03-10-2005, 05:02 AM
#10
Originally Posted by 96sleeper
Does this mean you could run your JWT N/A ecu program (advanced timing) and use the J&S to pull timing when the boost comes on hard? That way, you get advanced timing, extended rev limiter, but without the jacked up JWT boost ecu program.
By the way, that "jacked up" JWT boost ecu program has worked out very well for me.
03-10-2005, 05:22 AM
#11
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Originally Posted by 96sleeper
Does this mean you could run your JWT N/A ecu program (advanced timing) and use the J&S to pull timing when the boost comes on hard? That way, you get advanced timing, extended rev limiter, but without the jacked up JWT boost ecu program.
As soon as the ECU advanced timing comes into play the boost will come on and it will all be negateable. What you would get is an expensive extended rev limitier.
03-10-2005, 05:39 AM
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Originally Posted by I30tMikeD
Wouldn't make much sense though. What about the 13.5:1 AF ratio the NA program gives you?
As soon as the ECU advanced timing comes into play the boost will come on and it will all be negateable. What you would get is an expensive extended rev limitier.
As soon as the ECU advanced timing comes into play the boost will come on and it will all be negateable. What you would get is an expensive extended rev limitier.
03-10-2005, 07:09 AM
#14
Originally Posted by 96sleeper
Only reason I ask is because I have the JWT N/A ecu already, and a SAFC so I could tune the A/F. I just see where everyone has to wait 6 months for JWT to reprogram the ecu and then some have had bad tuning from it. I guess getting the JWT boost program, and then using the SAFC would be the best deal (and cheapest).
03-10-2005, 07:45 AM
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Originally Posted by blubyu2k2
If you already have the JWT ECU you can just call and tell them what you want ex: Z32 MAF, 370, 550 injector, Boost program, etc etc and they will send you a prog chip. It will take 2 weeks max and only cost $100. Then you pop the old ship out pop the new one in, and send them the old program back. I just recently upgraded mine to 615cc and Z32 MAF and it took about 6 business days for me to recieve. I also wouldn't recommend tuning a boosted car with an SAFC, emanage is a lot more sensible and doesn't affect timing at all.
Please explain how the SAFC changes timing?
03-10-2005, 07:59 AM
#16
Originally Posted by 96sleeper
Thats good to know about just changing a chip once you already have the daughterboard. I thought it had to be resent to JWT.
Please explain how the SAFC changes timing?
Please explain how the SAFC changes timing?
03-10-2005, 09:15 AM
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Originally Posted by Stephen Max
Timing maps are based on rpm and engine load. Engine load is determined by maf voltage. The SAFC alters the maf voltage, thus the SAFC can alter timing.
03-10-2005, 09:44 AM
#18
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Your only really going to see an SAFC mess with timing much when making large corrections with it. You can run 50% larger injectors with an SAFC because you can make +/- 50% changes but that is not something I would do. An SAFC is great for making small AF corrections but not the best tool for making large ones.
The best way to control AF and timing is with an ECU reprogram not a piggy back like e-mangage. the only reason e-mangage is a better option is because JWT won't custom tune an ECU program for each customer. Well, they might if you take your car there and pay big $$ for dyno time. They make their generic maps and will not deviate from them. The timing I need pulled and added at different rpm's is different than another person, but with JWT we would all get the same thing.
The best way to control AF and timing is with an ECU reprogram not a piggy back like e-mangage. the only reason e-mangage is a better option is because JWT won't custom tune an ECU program for each customer. Well, they might if you take your car there and pay big $$ for dyno time. They make their generic maps and will not deviate from them. The timing I need pulled and added at different rpm's is different than another person, but with JWT we would all get the same thing.
03-10-2005, 09:48 AM
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Originally Posted by 96sleeper
I got you. So in my situation, where I was lean and I tweaked with the SAFC, all of my changes are in the + variety, so timing would not be affected, since I am only increasing MAF voltage, not decreasing?
it messes with timing either way but if you were only making 5%-10%corrections then I would not be too concerned about the effects of the timing.
Subtrating fuel retards timing and adding fuel increases timing
03-10-2005, 10:21 AM
#20
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i would probobly tell jwt you want stock timing, 12.5:1 A/F, rasied rev limiter and any injector or maf changes that way since you have a J&S you dont need the conservative timing. but i think running the NA program with boost would be alittle to much
03-10-2005, 10:59 AM
#21
JWT/TS for the rev limit, eManage for scaling the injectors and adjusting the AFR on the fly, and J&S Safeguard for retarding per psi of boost and as a timing nanny to keep the gremlins from blowing up your **** when not on the dyno.
If you have the money, this setup allows you to tune closer to the edge for more/consistent power PLUS you have protection from detonation due to many variables that can change like heat, altitude, gas quality, etc. that JWT/TS and/or eManage can not adapt too.
You guys dump WAY way too much money in these cars and push the limits everyday on STOCK internals, which easily justifys/demands the $500-$600 for the J&S.
If you need ONE example of what the J&S can do/allow, just look to the PIONEER of the J&S for the Maxima community, Mardigrasmax and what he has achieved, ie 11.5@122mph and 18.5psi+N20 all ON STOCK INTERNALS. Yes, the VQ30 is an overbuilt SOB, but many here have blown with far less. IMHO a lot of what Mardi is able to do is because he has the J&S as a safety net that allows him to flirt with the edge of disaster, but keep him from blowing his engine.
Your choice, but personally, I'd forget about the electronic gizmos like an EBC, fancy high dollar gauges instead of budget ones, turbo timer, etc.. and instead run a J&S.
Just my wantabe "Fastest Fantasy Maxima Evar" opinion, which aint worth jack.
If you have the money, this setup allows you to tune closer to the edge for more/consistent power PLUS you have protection from detonation due to many variables that can change like heat, altitude, gas quality, etc. that JWT/TS and/or eManage can not adapt too.
You guys dump WAY way too much money in these cars and push the limits everyday on STOCK internals, which easily justifys/demands the $500-$600 for the J&S.
If you need ONE example of what the J&S can do/allow, just look to the PIONEER of the J&S for the Maxima community, Mardigrasmax and what he has achieved, ie 11.5@122mph and 18.5psi+N20 all ON STOCK INTERNALS. Yes, the VQ30 is an overbuilt SOB, but many here have blown with far less. IMHO a lot of what Mardi is able to do is because he has the J&S as a safety net that allows him to flirt with the edge of disaster, but keep him from blowing his engine.
Your choice, but personally, I'd forget about the electronic gizmos like an EBC, fancy high dollar gauges instead of budget ones, turbo timer, etc.. and instead run a J&S.
Just my wantabe "Fastest Fantasy Maxima Evar" opinion, which aint worth jack.
03-10-2005, 12:17 PM
#24
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Originally Posted by IceY2K1
JWT/TS for the rev limit, eManage for scaling the injectors and adjusting the AFR on the fly, and J&S Safeguard for retarding per psi of boost and as a timing nanny to keep the gremlins from blowing up your **** when not on the dyno.
If you have the money, this setup allows you to tune closer to the edge for more/consistent power PLUS you have protection from detonation due to many variables that can change like heat, altitude, gas quality, etc. that JWT/TS and/or eManage can not adapt too.
You guys dump WAY way too much money in these cars and push the limits everyday on STOCK internals, which easily justifys/demands the $500-$600 for the J&S.
If you need ONE example of what the J&S can do/allow, just look to the PIONEER of the J&S for the Maxima community, Mardigrasmax and what he has achieved, ie 11.5@122mph and 18.5psi+N20 all ON STOCK INTERNALS. Yes, the VQ30 is an overbuilt SOB, but many here have blown with far less. IMHO a lot of what Mardi is able to do is because he has the J&S as a safety net that allows him to flirt with the edge of disaster, but keep him from blowing his engine.
Your choice, but personally, I'd forget about the electronic gizmos like an EBC, fancy high dollar gauges instead of budget ones, turbo timer, etc.. and instead run a J&S.
Just my wantabe "Fastest Fantasy Maxima Evar" opinion, which aint worth jack.
If you have the money, this setup allows you to tune closer to the edge for more/consistent power PLUS you have protection from detonation due to many variables that can change like heat, altitude, gas quality, etc. that JWT/TS and/or eManage can not adapt too.
You guys dump WAY way too much money in these cars and push the limits everyday on STOCK internals, which easily justifys/demands the $500-$600 for the J&S.
If you need ONE example of what the J&S can do/allow, just look to the PIONEER of the J&S for the Maxima community, Mardigrasmax and what he has achieved, ie 11.5@122mph and 18.5psi+N20 all ON STOCK INTERNALS. Yes, the VQ30 is an overbuilt SOB, but many here have blown with far less. IMHO a lot of what Mardi is able to do is because he has the J&S as a safety net that allows him to flirt with the edge of disaster, but keep him from blowing his engine.
Your choice, but personally, I'd forget about the electronic gizmos like an EBC, fancy high dollar gauges instead of budget ones, turbo timer, etc.. and instead run a J&S.
Just my wantabe "Fastest Fantasy Maxima Evar" opinion, which aint worth jack.
You took the words right out of my mouth. The price of my J&S was $545 C.O.D.
03-10-2005, 01:24 PM
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Originally Posted by IceY2K1
JWT/TS for the rev limit, eManage for scaling the injectors and adjusting the AFR on the fly, and J&S Safeguard for retarding per psi of boost and as a timing nanny to keep the gremlins from blowing up your **** when not on the dyno.
If you have the money, this setup allows you to tune closer to the edge for more/consistent power PLUS you have protection from detonation due to many variables that can change like heat, altitude, gas quality, etc. that JWT/TS and/or eManage can not adapt too.
You guys dump WAY way too much money in these cars and push the limits everyday on STOCK internals, which easily justifys/demands the $500-$600 for the J&S.
If you need ONE example of what the J&S can do/allow, just look to the PIONEER of the J&S for the Maxima community, Mardigrasmax and what he has achieved, ie 11.5@122mph and 18.5psi+N20 all ON STOCK INTERNALS. Yes, the VQ30 is an overbuilt SOB, but many here have blown with far less. IMHO a lot of what Mardi is able to do is because he has the J&S as a safety net that allows him to flirt with the edge of disaster, but keep him from blowing his engine.
Your choice, but personally, I'd forget about the electronic gizmos like an EBC, fancy high dollar gauges instead of budget ones, turbo timer, etc.. and instead run a J&S.
Just my wantabe "Fastest Fantasy Maxima Evar" opinion, which aint worth jack.
If you have the money, this setup allows you to tune closer to the edge for more/consistent power PLUS you have protection from detonation due to many variables that can change like heat, altitude, gas quality, etc. that JWT/TS and/or eManage can not adapt too.
You guys dump WAY way too much money in these cars and push the limits everyday on STOCK internals, which easily justifys/demands the $500-$600 for the J&S.
If you need ONE example of what the J&S can do/allow, just look to the PIONEER of the J&S for the Maxima community, Mardigrasmax and what he has achieved, ie 11.5@122mph and 18.5psi+N20 all ON STOCK INTERNALS. Yes, the VQ30 is an overbuilt SOB, but many here have blown with far less. IMHO a lot of what Mardi is able to do is because he has the J&S as a safety net that allows him to flirt with the edge of disaster, but keep him from blowing his engine.
Your choice, but personally, I'd forget about the electronic gizmos like an EBC, fancy high dollar gauges instead of budget ones, turbo timer, etc.. and instead run a J&S.
Just my wantabe "Fastest Fantasy Maxima Evar" opinion, which aint worth jack.
For myself I have no plans to try and set any records. A JWT ECU or emanage set conservatively will allow me to run the 10 or 11 psi and 350ish hp daily like I want.
03-10-2005, 01:33 PM
#26
eManage will get you pretty far, however once you hit 440cc or above you will have problems idling. JWT/TS ECU can help that.
An extended rev limiter directly helps determines turbo size or pulley size, so as long as you can reach your goals with stock limiter, the JWT/TS aren't necessary. If you have the money, might as well for the benefits though.
An extended rev limiter directly helps determines turbo size or pulley size, so as long as you can reach your goals with stock limiter, the JWT/TS aren't necessary. If you have the money, might as well for the benefits though.
03-10-2005, 01:41 PM
#27
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Originally Posted by IceY2K1
eManage will get you pretty far, however once you hit 440cc or above you will have problems idling. JWT/TS ECU can help that.
Isn't Corey running my brothers 550's with e-manage and no idle issues?
03-10-2005, 01:53 PM
#28
4th gen Peak-N-Hold up to 550s seems to work okay with eManage.
5.0/5.5 gens and 350Z have issues with staturation type injectors 440cc or bigger. These ECUs have MAF out-of-range learning ability and can wreak havoc against eManage correction factors.
Should have clarified...I don't think in terms of 4th gens.
Yes, some are different, but just because it idles "okay" doesn't mean it's not pig rich prematurely killing 02s or clogging cats.
You can't correct for super large injectors by MAF conditioning. Will it work, yes? Is it stable, no. JWT/TS can manipulate the injector tables, so the MAF conditioning isn't too much.
5.0/5.5 gens and 350Z have issues with staturation type injectors 440cc or bigger. These ECUs have MAF out-of-range learning ability and can wreak havoc against eManage correction factors.
Should have clarified...I don't think in terms of 4th gens.
Yes, some are different, but just because it idles "okay" doesn't mean it's not pig rich prematurely killing 02s or clogging cats.
You can't correct for super large injectors by MAF conditioning. Will it work, yes? Is it stable, no. JWT/TS can manipulate the injector tables, so the MAF conditioning isn't too much.
03-10-2005, 02:58 PM
#29
Originally Posted by IceY2K1
4th gen Peak-N-Hold up to 550s seems to work okay with eManage.
5.0/5.5 gens and 350Z have issues with staturation type injectors 440cc or bigger. These ECUs have MAF out-of-range learning ability and can wreak havoc against eManage correction factors.
Should have clarified...I don't think in terms of 4th gens.
Yes, some are different, but just because it idles "okay" doesn't mean it's not pig rich prematurely killing 02s or clogging cats.
You can't correct for super large injectors by MAF conditioning. Will it work, yes? Is it stable, no. JWT/TS can manipulate the injector tables, so the MAF conditioning isn't too much.
5.0/5.5 gens and 350Z have issues with staturation type injectors 440cc or bigger. These ECUs have MAF out-of-range learning ability and can wreak havoc against eManage correction factors.
Should have clarified...I don't think in terms of 4th gens.
Yes, some are different, but just because it idles "okay" doesn't mean it's not pig rich prematurely killing 02s or clogging cats.
You can't correct for super large injectors by MAF conditioning. Will it work, yes? Is it stable, no. JWT/TS can manipulate the injector tables, so the MAF conditioning isn't too much.
Ahhhhaaaaa, no you let the cat out of the bag after i buy all of this $hit. "Get the emanage, get the PE 510's, it will idle great blah blah blah". I sware i am gonna drive to arizona and give you a good azz whupp'n.
03-10-2005, 03:18 PM
#30
Bwhahahaha....I'll meet you half way, since I'll deserve it.
Gabriel, aka LatinMax, is running eManage+PE510s, so you shouldn't have a problem.
You have the BEST chance of this working, since you are using the eManage and QUALITY Power Enterprise 510cc injectors NOT RC440/550/etc., and you *MIGHT* need to turn down fuel pressure a bit with an AFPR, but I doubt it.
Deac with RC550s and RWD VQ35s at 3.5bar are the ones complaining about RC440cc or larger, so hopefully our cars will be fine around 3bar.
Gabriel, aka LatinMax, is running eManage+PE510s, so you shouldn't have a problem.
You have the BEST chance of this working, since you are using the eManage and QUALITY Power Enterprise 510cc injectors NOT RC440/550/etc., and you *MIGHT* need to turn down fuel pressure a bit with an AFPR, but I doubt it.
Deac with RC550s and RWD VQ35s at 3.5bar are the ones complaining about RC440cc or larger, so hopefully our cars will be fine around 3bar.
03-10-2005, 03:30 PM
#31
One more thing on the J&S....
I'd have to say I'm 100% convinced turbos MUST have this, however for the linear boost/output of SCers, an eManage pulling X-degrees per PSI should be easy/safe to tune.
I wouldn't say the J&S is required on SCers as on TCers.
I'd have to say I'm 100% convinced turbos MUST have this, however for the linear boost/output of SCers, an eManage pulling X-degrees per PSI should be easy/safe to tune.
I wouldn't say the J&S is required on SCers as on TCers.
03-10-2005, 07:27 PM
#32
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Originally Posted by IceY2K1
One more thing on the J&S....
I'd have to say I'm 100% convinced turbos MUST have this, however for the linear boost/output of SCers, an eManage pulling X-degrees per PSI should be easy/safe to tune.
I wouldn't say the J&S is required on SCers as on TCers.
I'd have to say I'm 100% convinced turbos MUST have this, however for the linear boost/output of SCers, an eManage pulling X-degrees per PSI should be easy/safe to tune.
I wouldn't say the J&S is required on SCers as on TCers.
I might try {A32 ECU, 370's, Z32 MAF, SAFC, and J&S}. I should be able to get 350 hp out of this with around 9-10 psi of boost. Keeping stock timing and letting J&S pull where needed should result in good off throttle response and enough retard during peak torque. Use the SAFC to correct where the the different MAF voltages cause lean conditions.
What do you think?
03-10-2005, 07:36 PM
#33
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Maybe I am late on this, but did you guys know there are specific instructions for a 96 maxima on J&S's website?
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/MaximaInstall.html
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/MaximaInstall.html
03-10-2005, 07:56 PM
#34
the way youre thinking is what i'm thinking too.
i have all of those parts, except for the j&s.
if I am going to go with the 2.87 pulley (which is sitting on the florr in front of me right now), I am going to need something to pull a little timing at the top.
i have all of those parts, except for the j&s.
if I am going to go with the 2.87 pulley (which is sitting on the florr in front of me right now), I am going to need something to pull a little timing at the top.
03-10-2005, 08:10 PM
#35
I think that will work GREAT for around 300whp with or without the Z32 MAF, but you'll need to use a FMU to pump a bit more fuel through those 370cc injectors to keep safer duty cycles. See how that goes and what hp level that supports.
(370cc/10.5)*.8/.6*6*.85 = ~240whp@80%DC
(370cc/10.5)*1/.6*6*.85 = ~300whp@100%DC
I'd have no qualms about running the J&S and stock ECU with regards to timing.
(370cc/10.5)*.8/.6*6*.85 = ~240whp@80%DC
(370cc/10.5)*1/.6*6*.85 = ~300whp@100%DC
I'd have no qualms about running the J&S and stock ECU with regards to timing.
Originally Posted by I30tMikeD
Been thinking about his alot today. I may change my plans from e-manage or JWT ECU for controlling larger injectors, different MAF, and timing.
I might try {A32 ECU, 370's, Z32 MAF, SAFC, and J&S}. I should be able to get 350 hp out of this with around 9-10 psi of boost. Keeping stock timing and letting J&S pull where needed should result in good off throttle response and enough retard during peak torque. Use the SAFC to correct where the the different MAF voltages cause lean conditions.
What do you think?
I might try {A32 ECU, 370's, Z32 MAF, SAFC, and J&S}. I should be able to get 350 hp out of this with around 9-10 psi of boost. Keeping stock timing and letting J&S pull where needed should result in good off throttle response and enough retard during peak torque. Use the SAFC to correct where the the different MAF voltages cause lean conditions.
What do you think?
03-10-2005, 08:13 PM
#37
Yes, however anyone that buys one now should request the 350Z version, since it includes an "Interface Adapter Module", which should simplify wiring, and some other optional features activated via switches IIRC.
Originally Posted by I30tMikeD
Maybe I am late on this, but did you guys know there are specific instructions for a 96 maxima on J&S's website?
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/MaximaInstall.html
http://www.jandssafeguard.com/MaximaInstall.html
03-10-2005, 10:34 PM
#38
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Originally Posted by IceY2K1
I think that will work GREAT for around 300whp with or without the Z32 MAF, but you'll need to use a FMU to pump a bit more fuel through those 370cc injectors to keep safer duty cycles. See how that goes and what hp level that supports.
(370cc/10.5)*.8/.6*6*.85 = ~240whp@80%DC
(370cc/10.5)*1/.6*6*.85 = ~300whp@100%DC
I'd have no qualms about running the J&S and stock ECU with regards to timing.
(370cc/10.5)*.8/.6*6*.85 = ~240whp@80%DC
(370cc/10.5)*1/.6*6*.85 = ~300whp@100%DC
I'd have no qualms about running the J&S and stock ECU with regards to timing.
What is that equation?
**edit, I think I figured it out http://www.rceng.com/technical.htm