The Wizard

iTrader: (43)

As a few of you know, ptatohed (Josh) and myself (James) recently installed a water to air aftercooler on his car.

Before I begin, This is the thread by mhadford which inspired us. Thanks Mike.

After doing a lot of homework, we decided on a 'barrel design' (as opposed to a 'box' design). We ended up going with the Jackson Racing AWAC (Air/Water AfterCooler) made for the Mazda Miata. Here is a picture (although this is the older, unpolished, design):


Click here for more info. on the JR system.

The kit retails for about $900 new but ptatohed paid about half that for a used kit.

We went with this 'barrel design' because we felt it was easier to fit in the engine bay and it (in theory) produces less of a boost loss compared to a 'box design'. (Here is a picture of i30krab's Maxima with a Vortech 'box design' AWAC, if anyone is interested).
The JR kit provided us with the aftercooler, the electrical pump, and the front-mount heat exchanger (and 3/8" heater hose).

The JR kits expects the Miata guys to use their stock overflow bottle as their water reservoir. That wasn't going to cut it for us. We bought this water/ice reservoir made by Vortech:


The reservoir is a little big but it does fit. However, note that a smaller battery must be used to make the reservoir fit (or relocate your battery). Josh took apart a Wal-Mart mobile jump-start (as seen in the pictures below) but I bought an Oddyssey (PC680MJT):


The space and weight savings of the smaller batteries is very nice.

The Wizard

iTrader: (43)

Here is a picture of Josh's Wal-Mart battery:


Our goal was to convert to a 3” intake system at the same time we installed the AWAC but we wanted to do so with no custom work needed. No welding, no bracket or pipe fabrication, no special-order parts, etc. And we accomplished our goal! We put the whole system together with easy to get parts. Most of our intake plumbing was purchased here.

Before I get to the pictures, I'll give a quick review. Honestly, we don't really feel anything on the butt-dyno. But that might be because we did lose 1.5 - 2 PSI of boost (peaking at just about 8.5 now, down from 10 PSI). Hopefully that will easily be taken care of with a smaller pulley. Right now we both have a 3.25" pulley. Anyone know what size pulley we should drop down to, to get back to 10PSI? The system seems to work great! No matter how much we drive, the water always stays cool and so does the AWAC. As a test, we unplugged the pump, went for a drive and, sure enough, the AWAC was roasty. So, we are assuming the intake temps are being reduced. We'll know for sure, soon enough, as we have an Autometer dual intake temperature gauge waiting for install. We will also be dyno-ing our cars shortly. As soon as we know, we'll let you guys know our intake temperature drop across the aftercooler and our dyno results. It will also be fun to experiment with dropping ice in the reservoir!

O.k., enough talking, on with the pics. While I will post some of the pics below, please click here to see all the pics.


Before:




Reclock the blower:

The Wizard

iTrader: (43)

90^ rubber elbow:




BOV adaptor from E-Bay. This can be purchased to accommodate various BOVs:

(Please note we are temporarily using cheesey rubber couplers and worm clamps. We will be replacing these with nice silicone couplers and T-Bolt clamps soon).



Jackson Racing Water to Air AfterCooler:

The Wizard

iTrader: (43)

This is a picture of our 45^ bend. We really need a 60^ bend but since they only make 45^ and 90^, we used a 45^ and "cut it to be 60^". We first marked the location where we wanted to cut, to get the length we needed. Next, instead of drawing lines perpendicular/radial to the pipe, we skewed the lines 7.5^ on each end (We need 60, but are using a 45. 60-45=15. 15/2 = 7.5):






This is the cheesey plastic MAF adaptor we bought from E-Bay but have since purchased nice metal ones from Cattman (Place Racing):




Vortech Ice/Water reservoir:



Water pump:

The Wizard

iTrader: (43)

Heat Exchanger:







Complete!:

The Wizard

iTrader: (43)

If you'd like, you can read more about water to air systems here and here on Vortech's web site.

Comments and questions are welcome!

- James

ptatohed

iTrader: (12)

.

ewuzh

iTrader: (20)

Great work guys! Looks real clean and tidy. I hope to soon see the dyno and measured intake temps.

edit: btw, let me know when you guys are goin to dyno. I need to as well, so maybe we can do a little mini group dyno

subs1000w

did you loose any boost with it

looks good

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

This is interesting. But I don't see it adding any power because of the flow loss. I would love to see some before/after dynos of this thing.

Blu

iTrader: (63)

kudos on the effort but I just dont see a Miata AWAC cutting it. I hope you prove me wrong though, I'd like to see a dyno before and after if thats possible.

Blu

iTrader: (63)

did you not read the post?

Jar

iTrader: (2)

That looks really good guys, A lot more appealing to the eye than the intercooler setups i've seen. I think the point is less boost loss than with the intercooler am i right, i'd really like to see the number comparisons

Donald199

iTrader: (1)

wondering how is the temp. drop compare to a regular front mount.

I30tMikeD

iTrader: (8)

Great work fellas!

IceY2K1

iTrader: (3)

Nice and very clean install.

However, I agree that the AWIC is way too small...I've seen one of PWRs Honduh Civic/Prelude ones and it had a larger diameter.

Good luck on the dyno though~!

ptatohed

iTrader: (12)

Thanks for the compliments guys.

ewuzh: Eric, we'll let you know when we dyno. It will probably be next week or the week after. However, we were probably going to go to a place locally here in Temecula. So that would be quite a drive for you. Did you have a shop in mind? Maybe we can find a place half way, perhaps in the Ontario area?

SR20DEN: Of course there is going to be boost loss. You'll get that with any after/intercooler. That's why they make smaller pulleys.


Jar: Yes that is one benefit to the water to air design over the air to air design: less boost loss (although my loss of 1.5-2PSI is a little more than I had hoped). But there are other benefits. With air to air, you'll never decrease your intake temps to even ambient. With a water to air, you have the ability to add ice which, in theory, can result in intake temps below ambient! It is also great for the track and dyno. An air to air won't help you much on the dyno and not too much at the track.

Blu and IceY: Yes, our AWAC is a little small. And we knew that going into this. It was a trade off. We took ease of install over a larger/more efficient cooler. We considered PWR but their smallest 3" ID cooler is 6" in diameter and 15" long. http://www.pwr-performance.com/intercooler.htm
I still think we'll see a resonable temp reduction.

ewuzh

iTrader: (20)

Sorry Josh I didn't realize how far away Temecula was from me. There's no direct freeway from here to there, gotta go all the way up to where the 91 meets the I-15. It does seem too far out of the way, and I wouldn't want you to drive out so far if you were already planning on dynoing in Temecula. No worries, I'll just try to find a local dyno around here.

jac121479

iTrader: (10)

ptatohed
where are you guys planning on doing your dyno. it'd be awesome to see that thing in action.

slimer

iTrader: (13)

You finally made this thread. Looks good guys. Icey, my box is MUCH bigger.

the box on the top is my small resoviour. the box is bigger. My water pump is in the same place, but bigger and my heat exchanger bolts into the lower radiator support. I really like James's and Josh's kit. A+ for effort.

ptatohed

iTrader: (12)

jac, the only dyno "in town" (read 'in the Temecula valley area') is at a Viper specialty shop. Jim called them and those S.O.B.'s want a flat $100 set-up fee and then $95 an hour! (The $95/hr is for tuning. Jim:"But we don't need tuning, we just want to dyno." Bob:"I don't care, it's still $95/hr, one hour minimum") That's a shame because they are litterally 2 minutes away from our work. Therefore, I think we will have to shlep down to San Diego. MechTech in Escondido is a flat $70 (for 3 pulls, I believe). MechTech is about 30 miles from us and about 120 from you. You are welcome to come though.

Slimer Steve, Thanks for the kind words. Do you have a picture looking into your inlet/outlet? I want to see your fin style. Also, I forget if I already asked you this but have you measured your boost loss across your cooler? Thanks. Oh, and congrats again on MOTM, you're the man!

ptatohed

iTrader: (12)

Guys, two questions:

If my boost went from 10.0 to 8.1-8.4ish with the addition of the JR AWAC, what pulley size should I buy to get back to 10PSI? I'm thinking 2.87" is too small and 3.125" is too big.

Also, which side of the AWAC would be best to place my BOV? Right now, it is on the upstream side, between the blower and the AWAC. I considering moving it to the downstream side of the AWAC between the AWAC and the MAF. Are there advantages/disadvantages either way?



Thanks.

ewuzh

iTrader: (20)

Put it after the AWAC. You'll release colder air to cool your engine bay.

slimer

iTrader: (13)

Yeah, but the AWAC will have to work to lower the intake temps. Mine is even after the MAF.

Josh, I usually see around 7.6 psi on the 3.33 pulley and I believe the norm is 8-9 psi, so about 1 psi loss. My box is huge and I think thats where I'm losing some boost pressure. As for intake temps, I don't know but I can tell you that I probably have the lowest EGT of any of us. I don't think that I have ever seen 400 degrees C.

Thanks for the Congrats. I don't mod my car except for anyone else.
Steve

jac121479

iTrader: (10)

ptatohed
i'd still be down to check out your dyno. when you decide on your time and place, pm me the specifics. your max would be the first SCed Max i've ever seen

GBAUER

iTrader: (2)

If you put it after the MAF, your ECU wouldn't compensate for the loss of air since it would see the flow before you waste some of it, right? That would make your engine run rich I believe. I clogged my cat doing something simular. Just a thought.

slimer

iTrader: (13)

I don't run rich.

But the answer to your question is that you don't really waste it. Air flow does not equal pressure loss. BTW its waste not waist.

GBAUER

iTrader: (2)

If you're blowing off air to release pressure, you're also losing air. The only other way to decrease pressure is to either put in some kind of pressure reducing valve in line (they have them for water applications, but I've never seen one for air) or take the same amount of pressurized air and put it into a larger volume. The BOV, however, lets air out of the pipe to decrease pressure, correct? If that's true, then your MAF thinks the engine is getting more air than it actually is. The ECU should be sending more fuel into the cylinders than what's needed because it thinks there's more air entering the firing chamber than there actually is. If your car isn't running rich, then there might be something else going on: injectors might be too small or the FP might be too small. Either way, it seems to be working in your favor. I bet your cat is burning any excessive fuel and preventing a backfire somehow.

Just thinking logically here.

must've been thinking with my stomach again...

slimer

iTrader: (13)

Thats why people put the bov before the MAF. To not let out the metered air.

A couple of things is wrong with this.
1. I'm running 410cc injectors at 32 idle psi, 41 WOT psi, so they're not undersized.
2. At WOT, I only have my SFMU bump fuel pressure to 46 psi. Its at about a 3:1 ratio. I set it to where I want it. The SFMU sees actual boost pressure, so any pressure loss will automatically be compensated for in this setup.
3. I see 11.1 AFR with this set-up alone in open loop. Ok, A little rich, but a real safe tune. Closed loop is between 13.8 and 15.4. Oh wait, thats stoich.
4. I use my SAFC to lean it out to 11.8 and slightly advance timing by subtracting and at the top end add some fuel in to keep that AFR and slightly retard timing.
5. I don't have a cat.
6. Backfiring happens all the time when you let off throttle in catless boost applications (in my experience)

Oh and what I think you're referring to a MAP setup about the loss in pressure

GBAUER

iTrader: (2)

I think I misunderstood your first post. I thought you put the BOV after the MAF, not before. I retract those previous posts. You had me worried there! Thought you were running too rich! Wouldn't want you to misplace power!

slimer

iTrader: (13)

Just cuz I'm at 265whp at 7.0 psi and 88 degrees doesn't mean that I'm slow. I've since changed the setup.

jac121479

iTrader: (10)

ptatohed

assumming 8.5 is your max boost now, i think a 2.87 pulley would give you 9.6psi and a 3.125 would give 8.8psi (it would be alittle less than those #'s since your intake tract also consume a pecentage of psi, not a fixed amount, which increases as flow increases) it's been awhile since i dropped outta college so you should check my work below.

boost before - 10
boost after - 8.5
pulley size now - 3.25
possible pulley sizes - 2.87, 3.125
scer multiplier - x=32.5
cooler restriction ratio - y=0.15

formulas:
before cooler
-scer mulitplier/pulley size = psi
after cooler
-scer multiplier/pulley size - (scer multiplier/pulley size)cooler restriction ratio = psi

x/3.25 = 10psi
x=32.5
32.5/3.25 = 10psi

10 - 10y = 8.5 (current set up)
-10y = 8.5 - 10
-10y = -1.5
y=0.15

32.5/2.87 = 11.32

11.32 - 11.32(0.15) = 9.62psi

32.5/3.125=10.4

10.4 - 10.4(0.15) = 8.84psi

if it's wrong, i dropped outta college. what do you expect??? if it's right, there ya go. just playin w/ the numbers a bit.

slimer

iTrader: (13)

Didn't play with your numbers, but you have to remember that there is a cooler intake temperature as well. I'll fool around with number tomorrow.

jac121479

iTrader: (10)

true, true. that will definitely affect your power, not sure if it'll considerably affect the amount of restriction created though. hmmm...

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

True, but I said 'flow' loss, I didn't mention 'boost' loss.

And why are you still using that USIM with FI?

slimer

iTrader: (13)

I'll take a secret sauce mani for my 4th gen if you please.

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

All you need is the DE-K plastic manifold with the PV removed.

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

All you need is the DE-K plastic manifold with the PV removed.


Do you have headers?

slimer

iTrader: (13)

PV? and there are almost non available anywhere anymore. The 4th gen forum idiots gobble them all up. Its mad whack yo!

SR20DEN

iTrader: (7)

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