Well guys i haven't done a compression test yet, but when i talked to my buddy the(the engine builder at the shop) he said we could do a compression test, but that would only tell if the cylinders were getting proper compression and that he would bet money that a rod bearing spun. I am not trying to say this is right, but the fact that the car barely cranks and makes a knocking noise when we get it to run tells me something is F'd up inside that motor. I mean you litterally have to give it gas to keep it running or else it stumbles and dies (not like a bad MAF sensor).

We did 5 or 6 runs w/ 20min breaks in between. Weather was cool at about 50 degrees. He did a couple of the runs in second gear by mistake. Car smelled like it was running rich, but hell what do i know. My friend(the guy that builds the motors) operates the dyno also sometimes. He has done over 200 runs in his cars so i know he operated it right.

 

To tell you the truth mike i don't know what the F### happened. I mean my car has been setup this way for almost a year w/ the exception of the cuttout. I have never had any problems before

 

Damn sorry to hear about your car!!

 

10PSI is not enough to blow that motor. I have done 13 PSI turbo runs and that motor did not blow. I did not use a JS either. Something must have gone wrong. You had it tuned

 

I'm leaning towards detonation from the Emanage scaling back the 510cc injectors via the MAF, which caused the ECU to run in the lower load cells/more advanced areas of the timing map.

However, I would really like to know what his spark plugs look like and if he was running 1 or 2 step colder.

Also, when you dyno an automatic, do you just let off the throttle at redline or do you pop it into neutral? Just wondering, since I've seen my stock ECU do some timing advance blips once the throttle slams shut. I just wonder if that's a concern when you have FI and lean AFRs even with no load.

 

Bingo, that's where my money's at.... i replied in another thread about this issue, and my reply was that my motor blew with a 11:1 a/f ratio at 8 psi....

However, I had the emanage scaling back 555cc injectors, so from what i could tell, looks like timing was too far advanced.

 

Plus, he's probably leaner then when he was tuned from the cutout added. I think the dyno files will give some clues, but right now I'm just guessing.

 

I am thinking that he leaned out because of the cut-off also.

 

So for future reference, J&S is the best solution for this problem or just adjust timming via emanage?

 

I done back to back dyno's with and without my cut-out open and there was only a very slight change in AFR's.

 

i was told the variance would be in the range of .1 in AFR

 

Something else had to have happend. Especially since you have emange and werent really running all that much boost.

 

One thing I did notice is you dyno tuned in the warm heat. Now that is a bit colder the air is dense. That will make you run lean.

 

Exactamundo buddy. I thought about this awhile back but figured that my AFR had enough head room since it was tuned to 11.5:1

 

i think it maybe a combination of things matt. Emanage scalling, colder air causing leaner AFR, it could be a # of things. One thing for sure is this will not happen again

 

i do have the run where i blew my motor on video if someone can host it for me.

 

So Icy I'm a little confuse here,I know when emange scaling back the xxx.cc injector via the map,it also advance the timing while doing it,right?But I thought you can retart the timming throught the ignition harness also right? Sorry I'm not trying to hijack your threat here Chris.

And sorry to hear about your motor Chris,if you don't have a beater car,then I'ld vote for the DE-K over the 3.5 any day.

 

Yes, hands down the J&S is a God send to the FI/N20 Maxima.

With excessive retard via the emanage/smt6/etc., you can safely run without it, HOWEVER you must know what you're doing and take "baby steps". Inorder to eek out every last whp or take chances without fine tuning, you need the J&S.

J&S is a safety blanket incase you don't pull enough timing via the emanage/etc., get a bad batch of fuel, or whatever, since it will hear detonation *BEFORE* it gets to a dangerous level and pull timing. Plus, anyone who buys one should get the knock gauge so they will see how much knock the J&S is seeing by how much timing is being pulled.

 

Yes, on the blue emanage when you scale the injectors you change timing, however you can add the optional ignition harness to retard timing.

The emanage ultimate can scale injectors via IPW not MAF, so it doesn't mess with timing.

 

Dont want to take the thread off track but without a J&S, what does the stock ecu do when it sees knock? It just goes into a limp mode? I friend of mine has a 98 Regal with a Powertuner, which shows how much knock retard he gets, so does his ECU just retard timing like the J&S does for us?

chris'smax, sorry to hear about your motor. That seems really weird running at 10psi and it was tuned correctly except for the chance the timing was advanced because the scaling. Do you have any logs of the timing?

Also did you check your oil if you didnt already? I know its something very obvious but maybe it was low or something failed?

 

sorry to hear that chris, i went thru several motors myself before installing the j&s (hint). man after you get over the shock go to the junk yard and slap you a new motor in and lets get back on track, good luck.

 

IMO, the stock ECU is programmed to retard based on knock levels of a NA engine, which isn't aggressive enough for FI.

Per John@J&S, the Safeguard picks up lower levels of knock and retards timing before the stock ECU even notices, so it can prevent higher knock levels that cause damage.

 

man its a wonderful tool, and it really works. just a few weeks ago i was doing some test runs and when i hit the nitrous my fuel solenoid gave out. the j&s kicked in and the car started to lose power fast so i backed off the gas and when i checked the fuel solenoid, it was frozen. when i dont use race gas and run hard sometimes i deonate and the j&s responds quick. but remember this is just a safety net and doesnt make the car invincible.

 

Well with the Emanage Ultimate, will the J&S be needed, or is that a bit overkill ??

 

There is no knock retard function yet on the EU, although there are plans to add it in future firmware upgrades. You'd want the J&S still I think.

 

Define "needed"....

The J&S is not absolutely necessary, however the safety net it provides and the tuning aid of the optional knock gauge is well worth the cost, if you can afford it.

I would say it is the final piece to the tuning PACKAGE, but only an absolute must have if you're trying unproven methods or pushing the limits of your current engine management.

 

Good points Ice, that elaborates nicely on what I was thinking (but neglected to say).

I said "you'd want the J&S" but I wasn't really thinking of the guy who just bolts on the basic SC kit, I was more thinking of those like C Max etc who've gone past that point and upped the boost, added nitrous or whatever, guys more likely to be on the edge or making enough boost/power to break things easily if detonation occurs. And if you're trying to tune to the ragged edge it would certainly be a much better safety net than just the EU by itself.

 

Just to make sure Dandy...my post was towards Mattys' question not your post.

I know matty has been looking at J&S's on other boards, so I know he's looking to buy one. I'm just not going to tell anyone a black/white yes or no answer...it's up to them whether they have confidence in their tuning strategy or not and whether $500 for a J&S is worthwhile cheap insurance vs. the labor/cost of replacing a blown motor.

 

Yeah no problem and I do agree with what you said.

I just felt the need to elaborate because I didn't really qualify my statement at all the first time around, just replied quickly, and then after reading your post I realized I should have elaborated better on what I was actually thinking.

 

Actually per John @ J&S the unit could work for even low level people. Detonation can happen to anyone and regarless of the power levels it can and will happen and destroy your motor.
If you are running boost regardless how little or spraying NOS you need the J&S. I usually takes people to blow one motor to make that decision to buy on. I know that was the case with me.
It is cheaper than a new motor.

 

that sucks man, but good numbers with the auto.

but, at least you blew it on the dyno rather than in the middle of nowhere.

I can't wait to see what you put down for #'s if you do the 3.5

 

Yes I do agree the J&S will work at all power levels. But I'm just allowing for the points Icey raised.. it's risk management and how confident you are in the tune on your motor and each person may judge it differently.

Personally, with any boosted set up I WOULD likely run a J&S. I'm not saying don't use one. But not everyone may want to spend the money if they're only running low boost and are confident they have a good, conservative setup and are willing to risk it. I'm sure there are lots of Z guys for example running out-of-the-box basic TT turbo kits like the Greddy that aren't real gearheads, don't know much about engines or tuning, only running a few lbs of boost, and don't have a J&S. Just your average sales or marketing guy who wanted a faster car and bought the kit and had their mechanic install it and 9 times out of 10 it works fine because it's been set up conservatively from the manufacturer.

But yeah, like I said, I'd prefer to have a J&S if it were me, regardless of power level. That's why I initially said "you'd still want the J&S I think." I only added to my first post afterwards because Icey raised a good point and I didn't mean to just definitively tell Matty to get the J&S and not allow for the flip side argument. I'm sure your opinion is based on your own experience blowing a motor but I could still understand if someone with lower boost didn't think it was crucial to have it if they thought their tune was good, the risk was minimal, and didn't want to spend the money.

Anyways, I can't seem to express my thoughts properly today so I'm just gonna stop trying and go to bed. lol. I'm sure most people in here would do the research and decide on their own anyways.

 

Wouldnt it be ok to get the emanage ultimate, run that on a dyno, get the perfect optimal tune out of that say at -2 degrees retard, then when I take it out on the street, over compinsate a bit, (-2) and bring it down a bit to be totally safe. ?? Well not totally safe but a good tune. , you know what I mean hopfully

I just really thought that the emange was the last peice of the puzzle. The J&S seems like another complicated thing I kinda dont wanna get into. I know for sure its not going to be a plug and play unit, still going to have to mess around with it and get it perfect.

Im just really overwhelmed now. Another $5-$600 and a totally seperate Unit.

Sorry chris for totally jacking your thread. I know im at fault.

-matt

 

My original plan was to run just the Emanage Ultimate at a very safe timing and not spend an extra $500 for the J&S. It depends on your goals, in your case, if you will retard the timing enough to a safe level you will be fine with out it.

Now, I plan to run water/alcohol injection and a fair amount of timing. With the J&S, it will help out to see where I start to get KR and then I can retard just enough timing from there. Also, if the water injection or my fuel solenoid fails then it saves me from a blow engine.

 

IMO, you really don't "need" to add J&S on top of EU. You could take half of the money that would be spent on J&S and find a good tuner that knows how to use emanage. Spend an afternoon on a load dyno, like a DynoPack, and get a safe and powerfull tune. It will cost a few hundred to have it done, but you would have to do it anyway if you don't trust yourself to tune that car regardless of J&S.

That is not to say J&S couldn't be usefull on top of emanage. Like Cmax said, it is a safety net. If something occured like what happend to Neal, the ignition harness comming loose on his emanage, then you would have J&S there to catch you when you fall. Personally, I would do one or the other.

 

Not 100% sure what you're saying, however yes with the emanage blue or ultimate, you can have a reliably safe setup once AFR is tuned and timing is retarded. Yes, nothing is 100% safe, however unless you're doing something new/different/unproven or trying to wring every whp out, I wouldn't be concerned.

The EU eliminates the need for an AFC/JWT and provides much much more such as user control of timing and logging.

Get the EU setup conservatively and see where your power level is at. Then you can decide if you want more and add some of the stock timing back with the J&S helping you tune timing while having a safety net incase you screw up or something unexpected happens.

Although I haven't installed a J&S or tuned one, I was prepared to do so, and it isn't as complex as you think. The wiring is basic and you just need to adjust the sensitivity, since you won't be using it to retard timing except when knock occurs as a safety backup.

 

Matty, I hope we're not making you too paranoid over this.. it's not an absolute necessity to run a J&S if you don't want to spend the extra money. You can probably run just fine with the EU only. What Mike and Alex have said are solid points IMO.

I do apologize if I caused a headache for you by answering quickly at first and saying you'd want the J&S without qualifying why I said it. I had to backtrack a little as I realized afterwards (when Icey posted) that I said it because of what my choice would be, not because it would necessarily be the best choice for you, and so I tried to explain that but just couldn't seem to say it right yesterday.

If I were to get the J&S, it would NOT be because I thought it was an absolute necessity in all cases. It would be because I'm the type of guy who's more likely to push things to the ragged edge and also I usually like to have a more Cadillac solution in terms of control over my setup and toys to play with. This is more expensive of course, that's the downside. But those are MY reasons, and are likely quite different from yours, nor do they have to form the basis for your decision.

 

I just feel overwelmed now thinking I may need the J&S. Im still thinking of wiring up the EU and getting that running perfectly, now the J&S comes up and regarless of it being needed, it would be good to have.

Im the kind of the guy that does things correctly. I first started the S/C project and it took a while to get it in the car, because I wanted it done right. I had the blower rebuilt before install, got my injectors before the install, and didnt really run alot of boost on the stock injectors. Then once I put the 370's in I was a bit more into boost. Then I thought I was doing the right thing with purchasing the JWT. That idea went to He**.
Now I need an alternitive and the Greddy Emange Ultimate came out. PERFECT. Buy that and be running the car, safelty with my recently added wideband. Well now in my mind I may need the J&S.

I just thought that the emange will be perfect for the car. No flaws.

-matt

 

to the first paragraph. However, I would go with a Mustang dyno... stay away from DynoJet dynos because they don't load the car correctly.

 

chris'smax, any news on what happened?