The only reason I am so behing the J&S is because you can have the best tune and most coservative setup. But things can happen and it only take a second to cause you alot of expensive mistakes.
I know I may have gone overboard but. But better safe than sorry.

I have done FMIC, water/alch injection, E-manage, J&S and properly tuned. okok I am a little nervous.

 

Gabriel,

Do you have an OBD scanner?

If so, could you log some WOT runs in 3rd gear, so I can see what kind of timing you are running?

Also, how much timing are you pulling via the emanage?

 

*pop* .

 

Its official.
i spun a rod bearing. 3.5 swap is now underway. I am picking the motor up tommorow

 

he said dynapack not dynojet. dynapack is a load dyno.

 

I do not, but will try to get ahold of one.

If that is the case. I think you ran out of oil or oil pressure. Detonation will not spin a rod bearing

 

What kind of oil were you running Chris?

Did you pull the plugs at least?

Where are the dyno files?

 

Yup, I saw that. I didn't comment on Dynapack, only DynoJet.

 

Repeated Detonation WILL spin rod bearings. I experienced that 1st hand back in 99 at the SE-R Convention in Dallas TX in my turbocharged SE-R. My engine ran fine till lots of nasty detonation kicked in.... spun 3 out of 4 rod bearings. Its kinda hard to hear the engine detonate with a loud exhaust and helmet on. Needless to say I had to tow my car from Dallas to Chicago

Detonation puts stress on all the engine components, not just your pistons, rings etc. My engine had fresh Mobil 1 in it, and my oil pump was fine also. Please explain how did I spin 3 rod bearings and 2 main bearings ?

 

How are you going to get a conservative tune with an emanage, without a knock detector? Remember, the detector is listening for ping that YOU can't hear, and if it's a good detector, it will ignore engine noise that you CAN hear.

If the J&S responds to knock that you can't hear, how can it be called a bandaid? Imagine running the same tune without it. Your engine is silently knocking and you don't even know it, but you think it's all good. After all, your wideband O2 says so.

How can detonation spin rod bearings? Rod bearings are an alloy of copper and lead. When an engine detonates, the cylinder pressure can instantaneously double to about 1500 psi. The force on top of the piston gets focused onto the bearing, hammering the bearing, squeezing out the oil.

Assume 3.5" piston diameter, and estimated contact patch of the rod bearing to be 0.25 in sq.

Piston area = 9.62 in sq.
Contact patch = 0.25 in sq.

Pressure on contact patch = 1500 psi x (9.62/0.25) = 57720 psi.
Seems like a lot, so someone better check my work.

References:
See photo of squished plastigauge here: http://www.plastigauge.co.uk/howitworks.htm

Pressure formula here: http://hypertextbook.com/facts/2003/JackGreen.shtml

 

hey john whats up its curtis. the j&s is in and working lovely and the install was pretty straight forward. my question is every now and then i blow the solenoid fuse when retarding during nitrous. i have the yellow wire hooked up to the power that the solenoids see, is this the correct spot i should have it or someplace else?

 

Curtis:

When the unit retards, it lengthens the dwell to the coils, increasing the current draw.

How many amps is the fuse rated for, and what else is on that circuit?

Are you using the boost retard feature? If you are, and the fuse is not blowing, then I would tap the solenoid power from a different fuse.

Ask MardiGras where he tapped the power for the solenoid.

Measure the resistance of the solenoid. Be sure to disconnect it, so you don't damage the meter.

Use Ohm's law to determine how much current the solenoid will draw.

13.6v/R = ?amps

 

yeh im overloading the fuse it seems. im using 30 amp fuse to power both nitrous and fuel solenoids and then also tapping in the j&s at this point. i added on the fuel solenoid to the same fuse but it seems once i plug in the j&s it overloads it obviously. im gonna try and tap in from the activation switch instead. how many amps does the yellow wire have to see before it operates properly? and yes im using the boost retard 2 degrees after 10psi.

 

I gotta say that I think your going about this all wrong. Not just now, but from the begining.

I am not trying to be an **** or come down on ya at all, but why are you undertakinig another major modification when your last set up wasn't right.

Do you know why you spun the rod bearing? Do you know where things went wrong? There is an obvious hole somewhere, yet your forging ahead to uncharted territory (a SC 3.5 in a 3.0 5th gen) when you don't do any of the work yourself and don't seem to understand all of what is going on with your car. Have these guys ever done this swap before? Again, I am not trying to come down on you but this is a bad position to put yourself in. You don't have a second daily driver car, you don't do the work on your car, and have guys who are doing major modifications for the first time on a particular car. It is not like there are premier Maxima performance shops out there who we can take our cars to and trust that they know their **** backwards and forwards when it comes to a FI maxima.

It seemed that before you kept modding the car without ever do a simple thing like dyno the car to see if it was making what it should be. That is a very easy way to tell if things are are on the right track. Even when you were on the dyno you didn't even have a wide band hooked up. It would have taken a couple minutes to move the WB from the muffler to the cut out. Yet you were doing WOT throttle runs on the dyno, not making the right power but still doing pull after pull.

I will say that I don't know the whole situation. But from an outsiders perspective it doesn't seem that you nor the people doing the work really know what is going on with your car. Yet your gonna do a 3.5 swap and keep forging ahead??

It's not even that I think what your donig is totally wrong. Again, from an outsiders perspective.....from what I know your a very busy college student without unlimited funds and no daily driver. I don't know if your trying to be a pioner and don't care how many motors you go through.

And by no means am I some FI expert, I take risks with my own car. But I do things step by step and make sure I understand everything before it goes on my car. If there is someting not going on right I won't do anything else till it is fixed.

The FI maxima community is very small and a close knit group. I just thought I should give my 2 cents instead of just saying "Sucks you blew up" "3.5 swap, sweet!!!"

 

I understand where you are coming from. My view on the situation is that timming caused the detonation which caused the spinning of the rod bearing. I know it was not a fuel issue since the car had been tuned @ 11.5 AFR(VERY SAFE) and i am still running the same boost levels. I am almost certain the timming was a issue as a result of the emange scalling the injectors causing the timming to advance past the stock settings. I knew this maybe an issue form the begining but was hoping that the w/a injection would prevent any trouble. My tuner even knew that this could be a problem and warned me of running stock timming and told me to get a timming harness. This place i bring my car is the premier place in this area for imports. These guys do all the motor swap and engine build up for all the cars in this area so they aren't some little back woods shop. The shop that works on my car and the shop i dynoed my car are 2 different places. It was just me and freind who were doing the dyno when the shop was closed.

I figure since the motor has to be replaced and i am getting a 30,000k mile 3.5L motor(lower mileage than any de-k i could find around here) for $600 i would go ahead and do it. I have been thinking about doing and researching this swap for a few months now and now is as good a time as any to do it. I have had long conversations w/ tilley and stephenmax on this issue and i have concluded this is not a extremely difficult task to do this swap. In fact this swap will be even easier w/ my car since the fuel injectors are the same as the 5.5 gen.

Don't get me wrong, i am still going to sit back and research what caused the motor to blow and from there take the necessary preventative measures to ensure it doesn't happen again. I am not dumb enough to just dump another motor in there and keep everything the same way just for it to happen again. I am going to get the timming harness and J&S and work from there.

Virtually the VQ30DE and DE-k are the same, so most of the the swap will follow the same guidlines. I was talking w/ Stephenmax about the difficulty and he said any competent mechanic should be able to perform this swap. I mean there have been guys my age on here who have completed this swap themselves. I mean i am no proffessional mechanic by any means, but 80% of the work done on my car has been done by me (not to say i haven't messed some stuff up along the way ). The only things i don't do on it is anything that involves welding or tunning. I will be working on it w/ them whenever i get done at work. Also i go to school and work a construction job on campus and i just ride to school w/ my girlfriend so the not having a car issue is ok for the time being. I just live with her right now(which kinda sucks since she doen't have any food at her house )

 

chris, where you at? CEBA?

I'm a ceba right now, about to go take a test at 10 30, will get out prolly around 12 noon. we need to talk. my shop finally got started on my car. turns out that i'll be putting the stock cams back in. and i do have a complete set for ya if you want...

call me up at noon, and we'll discuss.
(i forgot to bring my phone to school, but will be home around noon)

 

oooooooo ****. Things are about to get interesting. I am deff going to hit you up.

 

By over-retarding timing and by knowing what many people have been running without any issues. Chris was trying new things and flying blind, which bit him in the end.

I don't think anyone said the J&S is a bandaid, we know damn well your unit saves the day. EGT and checking your plugs will tell you if you're detonating. Yes, it may be too late, but we're talking about prolonged minor not catostrophic detonation.

Just to be clear, we all know your unit is well worth the cost/safety/tuning-aid, what some of us are trying to get across albiet poorly...is that people here who are on a limited budget must decide what must be purchased now and what might be put off for awhile until they have the $$$$. It doesn't make sense to have a J&S, if you can't even get your AFR, injectors, MAF, etc. working semi-safely before worrying about getting a bad batch of gas, fuel pump failure, harness loose or something unlikely.

Personally, I will run the J&S and have ALWAYS said that is the safest/ideal route, however if the budget choice is between:

1)FMU/AFC w/J&S
vs.
2)Emanage alone

Both with some common sense and basic gauges like WB02, EGT, FP, etc...I'd choose just the emanage and ASAP buy the J&S. Just my opinion, which is what most of us have been trying to say in the first place, ie it's up to the persons' own judgement call.

 

"Band aid" and "too late" are reasons often given for not using the unit.

 

Auuugh...Chris didn't know what he was talking about.

Don't worry, we straightened him out.

 

BTW, do your ears burn whenever someone mentions J&S?

Or do you just have some super search you use to know when someone on one of the numerous web boards mentions your name?

You always seem to know when....

 

you know whats funny i was chris at one time, i kept blowing my motors and asking mardi how does he do it and not blow his motors? his reply j&s everytime and i ignored it. one reason was the money and the negative feedback i use to get from my racehead friends. they said the same, why get a bandaid when you can just get it tuned properly from the start and not take a shortcut to the problem. but after going thru three motors 2 in 3 months i said if my life depended on it, that new motor will not run without j&s period. now many months later and whipping on everything that comes my way(331 to the wheels srt4) and not blowing my motor which usually happens, my friends are now talking about a J&S setup as a safety net. i spent over ten grand in motors and if i would of spent 500 on the j&s i'd be 7 grand richer today. i have tried different boost nitrous applications and some shut the car down others didnt so i know if i wanna play up there i have to do some tuning but in the mean time j&s saved my ****.

 

C MAX,

Do you have the knock gauge or are you just relying on "feeling" the J&S pull timing when something bad happens?

 

john made a a remote light that looks like a alarm led and placed it right dead center of my middle vents where i can see it at all times. when i detonate it blinks according to retarding rate and i just back off immediatley. the j&s does this wether you take your foot off the gas or not it just slows the car down. at my current set up 9lbs 50 shot theres no detonation what so ever and the car runs fine. but i tried a 100 shot and the car just shuts down lights blinking the works so i wont mess with that for now. but as far as the gauges the j&s gauge will tell you exactly when and how much and what cylinder is acting up how much retarded etc. but it isnt a must but very helpful if you plan on tuning that detonation point.

 

Nice...didn't know he offered that.

 

..............

 

Valvoline full Synthetic, I am going to pull the plugs friday when i go to the shop. I have to get the run files from thunder racing, they were closed when i got there yesterday to get the car towed

 

this might not be wat everyone on here might agree with but u had this car set up like this for a long time and this might be the hardest you've beat on it since u built it. i and only i think that you should put it all back together and go back to your previous boost setting and add j&s to keep u safe. and stay away form trying to set any high dyno numbers until u find the issue u ran into this time. i have seen so many cars blow on dynos that drove around for yrs on the street. my friend's gti drove at 30psi for 2yrs and he beat that car like a ***** and took it to a dyno and after 3-4 passes he blew the motor...dyno's scare that **** out of my man....but good luck either way wit wat u plan on doing

but u did make some nice numbers...

 

For the most part, dynos are easier on the car than street driving. There's less load and it's a more controlled environment. Usually when a car blows on the dyno, it's because of some change in tuning or the owner is trying to get some huge dyno number.

BTW, your friend drove a GTI at 30psi on the street without a tune?

 

You just let off the throttle at redline, then throw it into neutral. We usually take it to the rev limiter, let off the throttle and then neutral. Never been a problem in 100+ passes.


I had always worried about the emanage scaling and timing issues since I'm running 660's. Before I decided to sell my car, I was planning on getting the emanage ultimate.

 

That is the samething I said to Chris last week over the phone. Re-build what you had.
Don't you remember everything that you have been thru (fried ECU, idle problems) the list goes on.
You are going into an area that has not been nearly as proven as your original setup.
Just my opinion.

 

IceY:

Yes, I search for knock related threads. I try to educate potential customers about the unit, and help with installation questions.

 

I appreciate the help...always good info.

Check your PMs by the way.

 

I don't see why i should re-build what i had if i wasn't satisfied with it. I know timming casued the detonation which was a gamble i knew and took. This problem will be solved w/ the retarding the timming this time. This isn't some super pioneering venture here w/ a custom built motor. Now i know this isn't a easy task by any means, but i am pretty confident it will be as easy or even easier than the 4th gen 3.5 swap. I dropped the motor off today and we will begin the swap on monday.

Setup will be:
3.5L w/ 3.0 JWT cams and ARP rod bolts
SC w/ 2.87 pulley and CAI
3"charge pipe
PF TB
Emanage w/ timming harness and injector harness
PE 510cc
J&S
Hotshot headers
3" VES

 

ARP head studs w/ new OEM head gasket

Can you use both Emanage timing and J&S?

 

I don't think he needs head studs, however if he does chose those, he should either go with a 3-layer 350Z head gasket or better a Cometic gasket.

 

he and many others have driven their 1.8t's like that....im scared one day its gonna blow but it seems to run great. my personaly friend whos car i helped build ran his 1.8t in a jetta up to 28 or so psi on the stock ko3 sport and once we threw in a gt2871rs he ran it up to 30+++, his boost guage needle swung so far that a warning light came on the guage that we didnt know was on there. he now has it at 25 or so psi but we have seen 30's on either turbo for months at a time

 

his car had an ecu reflash while he was on the ko3 and he has a daughterboard i think for the gt2871rs

 

He may not need the head studs, but it definitely would help him keep this motor lasting through the boost and he is going to be 1/2 way there on the install. Since the Cometic head gaskets are pretty cheap (~$180) and the OEM 350Z ones are like $50 that wouldn't be a bad idea either way.

 

If I were in his position with his setup I wouldn't bother with head studs or a new headgasket. He's not making near enough power to start blowing them in my opinion, unless the FWD 3.5 gasket is significantly weaker than the stock 350Z gasket.