Supercharged/Turbocharged The increase in air/fuel pressure above atmospheric pressure in the intake system caused by the action of a supercharger or turbocharger attached to an engine.

'Boost with no Tune' Questions

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Old 01-17-2008, 11:40 PM
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'Boost with no Tune' Questions

I just dont want to blow my motor. Some of you may have picked up on my hinting for boosting the car, whatever. Before the end of next week I'll be RMT boosting .

I had 2 questions however, due to my horrible constraints in scheduling from having 2 jobs and full-time school, I may end up with the turbo installed and having to drive around a day or two without tuning... I KNOW myself, and I WILL floor it .

I have a custom 3" I.D. MAF(76.5mm, just like the Z32 MAF), Walbro190 fuel pump (for now), RC 440 injectors, FP will be set to 43-45psi, SAFC will be removed of any corrections until dyno. For the time without any tuning I will be running on the WG spring of 5 PSI. I will try to avoid goin passed 5000rpm- no point going up to redline, just looking for a taste of boost and enough to check for leaks etc...


My questions are- and its in line with how the stock 4th gen ECU works WOT a/f just fine if using a Z32 MAF with z32 370cc injectors.....

With my custom 3"ID MAF (same as Z32), and 440cc injectors, and SAFC corrections set to ZERO, COULD I floor it and not worry about any leaning issues? I believe I wont, just need others' opinions

Also, should I change the MAF IN on the SAFC to '02' of the Z32 MAF, or should I leave it at '04' for the stock MAF?
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Old 01-18-2008, 02:48 AM
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I might be speaking too soon, but I believe you will still need something to boost fuel pressure. ie. Vortech FMU, Cartech FMU

-matt
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Old 01-18-2008, 05:57 AM
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Eddy, I can pretty much guarantee you that you are going to run lean with that setup, especially with no correction on SAFC.

My first VQ35/SC setup had a stock ECU, Z32 MAF, SAFC, AFPR (1:1), RC 440s, and a Walbro 255. With my base FP at 43psi, I would start running lean after ~3psi. I added major correction (+50%) with SAFC and that got me up to ~5psi. I then bumped up my base fuel pressure to 60psi, and I was fine to about 8psi, but it idled ridiculously rich and experienced starting problems.

I added a Vortech 4:1 FMU and lowered the base fuel pressure (~25psi) to avoid hitting uber high fuel pressures. That setup was only good for about 11psi (even with 50+ correction at 5500rpm). I then upgraded to 550s, and fine tuned all the way to 13psi with the SAFC.


About the MAF...if you have a Z32 MAF, you need 02 in (for a Z32 MAF), and 04 out (for a A32 ECU). However, some people supposedly get away with 04/04 or 02/02, but those never worked to my satisfaction.
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Old 01-18-2008, 06:10 AM
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Originally Posted by matty
I might be speaking too soon, but I believe you will still need something to boost fuel pressure. ie. Vortech FMU, Cartech FMU

-matt
b0000!!!

Originally Posted by meximax
Eddy, I can pretty much guarantee you that you are going to run lean with that setup, especially with no correction on SAFC.

My first VQ35/SC setup had a stock ECU, Z32 MAF, SAFC, AFPR (1:1), RC 440s, and a Walbro 255. With my base FP at 43psi, I would start running lean after ~3psi. I added major correction (+50%) with SAFC and that got me up to ~5psi. I then bumped up my base fuel pressure to 60psi, and I was fine to about 8psi, but it idled ridiculously rich and experienced starting problems.

I added a Vortech 4:1 FMU and lowered the base fuel pressure (~25psi) to avoid hitting uber high fuel pressures. That setup was only good for about 11psi (even with 50+ correction at 5500rpm). I then upgraded to 550s, and fine tuned all the way to 13psi with the SAFC.


About the MAF...if you have a Z32 MAF, you need 02 in (for a Z32 MAF), and 04 out (for a A32 ECU). However, some people supposedly get away with 04/04 or 02/02, but those never worked to my satisfaction.
b0000 again!!! . Yea I agree though, OUT has to be 04, that works best for me. So 02 IN, werd.

Thank you both for the responses. What your opinion on leaving FP at its current 55psi? Man I hope I dont run too lean that I end up wasting my time and $ on the dyno (perhaps I can talk streetz into lending me his wideband). I thought that with the bigger injectors I wouldnt need an FMU.

Either way, we'll see how it goes on the dyno when the time comes sometime next week
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:25 AM
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I like the saying 'Do it once, do it right'. Think of it this way, your already complaining you don't have any time. How much free time are you going to have when you pop your motor?
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:44 AM
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hmmm....I had 02 in 04 out and the car ran like ****. I dunno if it was crazy rich or something....I'm gonna play with it again. I am running the z32 maf on a32 ecu....
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Old 01-18-2008, 08:55 AM
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I would not run the car with no tuning if you know that you will go full throttle. I ended up blowing my engine because my tuning shop was backed up everytime I went in for a tuning. I drove the car untuning for the last changes I made for about 1 month before it it melted 1 piston and broke rings in to other cylinders. It was my fault because decided to keep pace with a built C4 Vette on the highway with 4 people in my car. I never went over 8 psi or even 3/4 way on the throttle but it was enough to cause the damage. Be carefully, do not drive it until it is ready to be. Just my two cents. Good luck.

Ferhan
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Old 01-18-2008, 09:27 AM
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Thank you guys for the advice! I'll try to have the WB in before I start getting into the throttle.

Much appreciated, go org!

Mtrai, I love the last sentence on your post :lolz: sounds like something I'd say
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:56 AM
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Originally Posted by 95BLKMAX
I thought that with the bigger injectors I wouldnt need an FMU.
Correct. With properly sized injectors, there is no need for a FMU.
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Old 01-18-2008, 12:10 PM
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Originally Posted by The Wizard
Correct. With properly sized injectors, there is no need for a FMU.
We'll see how it goes with the wideband. Gonna just run the 5psi spring w/o the boost controller and see how the a/f turns out.
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Old 01-18-2008, 01:27 PM
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I thought with 440's you were going to be ok, but i guess by meximax's experience, might get lean. and NO i wont lend u my WB lol. you NEED to buy one mate! lol. i can lend u the laptop though lol.

Last edited by streetzlegend; 01-19-2008 at 08:25 AM.
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Old 01-18-2008, 01:41 PM
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wtf am I gonna do with the laptop with no WB? LOL. Come on meng.... if I buy WB, there goes the $ for installation, lol Then I get delayed another 2 weeks for next paychecks, lol... siiiiiiiigh. Perhaps thats what I'll have to do, b000, lol
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Old 01-18-2008, 05:50 PM
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So to make all the people happy, and for me to be happy cus I wont blow my motor.... Im going tonight to pick up a brand new wideband from gtr_rider, So the project is still on schedule
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Old 01-18-2008, 10:53 PM
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guess what.... I have a wideband, LOL LC1 to be exact. So werd! Turbo'ing is back in schedule :-D
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Old 01-19-2008, 08:34 AM
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You probably should be able to adjust your safc II with the wideband enough to drive it safely until you get it properly dyno tunned.
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Old 01-19-2008, 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by babymac
You probably should be able to adjust your safc II with the wideband enough to drive it safely until you get it properly dyno tunned.
Thats exactly the plan sir. Judging by the way things are looking, Im going to have most of the stuff installed on Monday.... So I MAY just be doing the turbo install itself on either Tuesday or Weds morning. Tune the instant I drive out, (3rd gear pulls, no safe space around these parts to pull 4th gear pulls to 128mph, lol), and hopefully hit up the dyno Thursday morning FTW. HOPEFULLY this is how it will go. Keeping my fingers x-ed
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Old 01-19-2008, 10:01 AM
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Originally Posted by 95BLKMAX
Thats exactly the plan sir. Judging by the way things are looking, Im going to have most of the stuff installed on Monday.... So I MAY just be doing the turbo install itself on either Tuesday or Weds morning. Tune the instant I drive out, (3rd gear pulls, no safe space around these parts to pull 4th gear pulls to 128mph, lol), and hopefully hit up the dyno Thursday morning FTW. HOPEFULLY this is how it will go. Keeping my fingers x-ed
Just be careful and don't get boost happy. until you get a proper tune.

oh and be sure to show us your dyno graph.
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:50 AM
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All you have to wait is two days? Seriously that's not very long. Just save the surprise until after the dyno tune.

I had to wait 1000miles shifting at 3K to break in a freshly built 1.65liter block! Try doing that.
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Old 01-21-2008, 09:55 AM
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Well he isnt in michigan so he cant help but drive it hard lol. No he is going to take it easy.
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Old 01-22-2008, 09:08 PM
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Alright report so far....

-Wideband installed and calibrated
-Oil Pump is in place
-RC 440s are installed and flooding my cylinders like woah, lol
-1step colder plugs are in, gapped to .38
-Feed line, Return line, WG reference line all mocked into place
-Charge piping from front of tranny to over the rear beam in place
-Wastegate Spring swapped out to the 5psi spring
-Muffler is cut off
-Fuel pressure back down to ~40-43psi constant
-A/F I got it to sit at 14.5:1 at idle, but havent driven around yet to really see what its like. I drove it up and down the block and as long as Im gradual with the gas and not tap or stump it, its driveable, lol. Needs more AIR (turbo where are j00? lol)


Plan for tomorrow before work-
- Finish wiring for oil pump
- Install sandwich plate and replace oil filter
- ATTEMPT to install IC

werd! getting there baby!
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Old 01-22-2008, 09:13 PM
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do I have to make a trip to miami.. LOL
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Old 01-23-2008, 05:20 AM
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Originally Posted by gtr_rider
do I have to make a trip to miami.. LOL
Nah homie dont bother... too much gas for ya. I'll meet you half way at Twilight
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Old 01-23-2008, 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by 95BLKMAX
Alright report so far....

-Wideband installed and calibrated
-Oil Pump is in place
-RC 440s are installed and flooding my cylinders like woah, lol
-1step colder plugs are in, gapped to .38
-Feed line, Return line, WG reference line all mocked into place
-Charge piping from front of tranny to over the rear beam in place
-Wastegate Spring swapped out to the 5psi spring
-Muffler is cut off
-Fuel pressure back down to ~40-43psi constant
-A/F I got it to sit at 14.5:1 at idle, but havent driven around yet to really see what its like. I drove it up and down the block and as long as Im gradual with the gas and not tap or stump it, its driveable, lol. Needs more AIR (turbo where are j00? lol)


Plan for tomorrow before work-
- Finish wiring for oil pump
- Install sandwich plate and replace oil filter
- ATTEMPT to install IC

werd! getting there baby!
rc 440's thanx to absoundlab lol
 
Old 01-23-2008, 06:39 AM
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Originally Posted by 95BLKMAX
Alright report so far....

-Wideband installed and calibrated
-Oil Pump is in place
-RC 440s are installed and flooding my cylinders like woah, lol
-1step colder plugs are in, gapped to .38
-Feed line, Return line, WG reference line all mocked into place
-Charge piping from front of tranny to over the rear beam in place
-Wastegate Spring swapped out to the 5psi spring
-Muffler is cut off
-Fuel pressure back down to ~40-43psi constant
-A/F I got it to sit at 14.5:1 at idle, but havent driven around yet to really see what its like. I drove it up and down the block and as long as Im gradual with the gas and not tap or stump it, its driveable, lol. Needs more AIR (turbo where are j00? lol)


Plan for tomorrow before work-
- Finish wiring for oil pump
- Install sandwich plate and replace oil filter
- ATTEMPT to install IC

werd! getting there baby!

Hm, the fuel flooding the cylinders. I'm basically running your EXACT same setup (440's, walbro, z32 maf, AFPR= 51psi). I'm pulling a ton of fuel with the VAFC, and my idle a/f is around 14.9. I'm just waiting to get this new pulley, and SC back on.

But I just wanted to get your opinion on Driveability, for some reason I feel like it pulls harder if i ease down the pedal to redline, as opposed to downright stompping it. I'm putting the blower back on within a week, but just wanted to get someone elses opinion with the setup. Also, did you adjust the in/outs on the Vafc to compensate for the z32? I believe its 2 in 4 out, however im still running the setup on 6 in 6 out, not sure if thats effecting me.

Nice progress man, cant wait to see where you stand.
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Old 01-23-2008, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by 98MaXeDouT
Hm, the fuel flooding the cylinders. I'm basically running your EXACT same setup (440's, walbro, z32 maf, AFPR= 51psi). I'm pulling a ton of fuel with the VAFC, and my idle a/f is around 14.9. I'm just waiting to get this new pulley, and SC back on.

But I just wanted to get your opinion on Driveability, for some reason I feel like it pulls harder if i ease down the pedal to redline, as opposed to downright stompping it. I'm putting the blower back on within a week, but just wanted to get someone elses opinion with the setup. Also, did you adjust the in/outs on the Vafc to compensate for the z32? I believe its 2 in 4 out, however im still running the setup on 6 in 6 out, not sure if thats effecting me.

Nice progress man, cant wait to see where you stand.
Well from driving it down the block a few times, yea stumping the gas made the a/f go down into 9s and it would just bog. If I eased into it it would stay in the high 10s low 11s and I could drive it. I just need to fine-tune it. I only got like 3mins of drive-time with these injectors so not much tuning has gotten done yet.

Your OUT "SHOULD" be 04, since thats what our ECU's code is. The IN should be 02 for the Z32 MAF, and yea I have it set to that (02 IN-04 OUT).
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Old 01-23-2008, 07:02 AM
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I remember plugging that into the AFC when I was boosted, and the car ran like TOTAL ****. I'll try it again today, well see what happens.

For some reason I can't recall, are you running an EU?
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Old 01-23-2008, 07:03 AM
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Originally Posted by 95BLKMAX
Alright report so far....

-Wideband installed and calibrated
-Oil Pump is in place
-RC 440s are installed and flooding my cylinders like woah, lol
-1step colder plugs are in, gapped to .38
-Feed line, Return line, WG reference line all mocked into place
-Charge piping from front of tranny to over the rear beam in place
-Wastegate Spring swapped out to the 5psi spring
-Muffler is cut off
-Fuel pressure back down to ~40-43psi constant
-A/F I got it to sit at 14.5:1 at idle, but havent driven around yet to really see what its like. I drove it up and down the block and as long as Im gradual with the gas and not tap or stump it, its driveable, lol. Needs more AIR (turbo where are j00? lol)


Plan for tomorrow before work-
- Finish wiring for oil pump
- Install sandwich plate and replace oil filter
- ATTEMPT to install IC

werd! getting there baby!
If you don't mind me asking, where did you get your charge piping from. I'm tryin to get this turbo set up done before the meet in march so I might switch to a rear mount setup.

Also with the oil return, are you sending it back to the valve cover or the upper oil pan? Also are you using an in-line pump to send it back?
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Old 01-23-2008, 07:19 AM
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Originally Posted by 98MaXeDouT
I remember plugging that into the AFC when I was boosted, and the car ran like TOTAL ****. I'll try it again today, well see what happens.

For some reason I can't recall, are you running an EU?
No sir Im running my SAFC1, going to upgrade to an SAFC2 in a month or two. Need more tuning points.

Originally Posted by essential1
If you don't mind me asking, where did you get your charge piping from. I'm tryin to get this turbo set up done before the meet in march so I might switch to a rear mount setup.

Also with the oil return, are you sending it back to the valve cover or the upper oil pan? Also are you using an in-line pump to send it back?
I made the charge piping myself. I bought 2 7ft long sections of 2" pipe for $30 at a local muffler shop. There is one part of it that I went to a local shop (Miami Muffler) that it would have been too many couplers to make it- the section from under the rear seat to over the beam. Not much room there given my SFC and the bends that I needed. So I had a mandrel 1-piece made for that section, saves me alot of headaches down the road.

Im sending it back into the valve cover (gonna drill through it and the baffle. Dont feel like dealing with the cap). And yes you HAVE to use a pump to send the oil back to the motor.
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Old 01-23-2008, 07:57 AM
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Originally Posted by 95BLKMAX
And yes you HAVE to use a pump to send the oil back to the motor.
My bad. I meant to ask what type of pump.
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Old 01-23-2008, 08:14 AM
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Originally Posted by 95BLKMAX
No sir Im running my SAFC1, going to upgrade to an SAFC2 in a month or two. Need more tuning points.



I made the charge piping myself. I bought 2 7ft long sections of 2" pipe for $30 at a local muffler shop. There is one part of it that I went to a local shop (Miami Muffler) that it would have been too many couplers to make it- the section from under the rear seat to over the beam. Not much room there given my SFC and the bends that I needed. So I had a mandrel 1-piece made for that section, saves me alot of headaches down the road.

Im sending it back into the valve cover (gonna drill through it and the baffle. Dont feel like dealing with the cap). And yes you HAVE to use a pump to send the oil back to the motor.
Do you have pics of the install
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Old 01-23-2008, 08:26 AM
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Originally Posted by btbrown
Do you have pics of the install
NOt installed yet. But he will have pics.
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Old 01-23-2008, 09:57 AM
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WB is working good I take it, couldnt figure that mess out.. oh well
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Old 01-23-2008, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by essential1
My bad. I meant to ask what type of pump.
http://www.pumpagents.com/ShurfloPum...0-643-236.html

And they're in Bradenton FL, so shipping only took 1 day.

Originally Posted by btbrown
Do you have pics of the install
Nope. Not until everything is on and cleaned up will I take pix, lol. For now use imagination FTW

Originally Posted by kzoosho
NOt installed yet. But he will have pics.
Indeed

Originally Posted by gtr_rider
WB is working good I take it, couldnt figure that mess out.. oh well
Yea its working. Dunno why it wasnt working on your laptop. Works just fine on streetz bucktooth laptop
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Old 01-23-2008, 10:37 AM
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Report for today...

- Sandwich Plate is on
- Original Oil Pressure Switch FINALLY changed (this was fun)
- Traction bars are off (with the sandwich plate, the oil filter would hit the bar... so Im done with them, lol).

After the turbo stuff is done, Im gonna have a few things for sale for you guys so stick around.
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Old 01-23-2008, 02:05 PM
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bend the traction bars FTW?
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Old 01-23-2008, 10:24 PM
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Originally Posted by gtr_rider
bend the traction bars FTW?
Already bent it to clear the oil filter as is, lol. Not gonna bend it AGAIN cus then I wont be able to turn my wheels! lol
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Old 01-23-2008, 11:16 PM
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wow I seriously need that SAFC2 ASAP. I dont have enough tuning points at all for this. May be different once the turbo is on to add more air in there. But 8points is def not enough
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Old 01-24-2008, 10:21 PM
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Report for today...

- Had to relocate oil pump to inside the trunk FTL, but its looking clean and not taking up too much space
- I got an SAFC2 from a friend FTW. I'll see when I install it, if not tomorrow, over the weekend
- Did alot of progress mocking up the front section of the charge piping, and the rear heading into the turbo. Coming out great
- Oil pump wired in

Decided to not install IC until later. Too much time when really its not NEEDED, only running 5psi for now.

Tomorrow morning before work I will wire up the SAFC2, go to work, then after work come back and figure out the vacuum line situation.

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Old 01-25-2008, 06:53 AM
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Originally Posted by 95BLKMAX
Report for today...

- Had to relocate oil pump to inside the trunk FTL, but its looking clean and not taking up too much space
- I got an SAFC2 from a friend FTW. I'll see when I install it, if not tomorrow, over the weekend
- Did alot of progress mocking up the front section of the charge piping, and the rear heading into the turbo. Coming out great
- Oil pump wired in

Decided to not install IC until later. Too much time when really its not NEEDED, only running 5psi for now.

Tomorrow morning before work I will wire up the SAFC2, go to work, then after work come back and figure out the vacuum line situation.

Good to hear man, are you going to be running an upgraded MAF? Not sure if you have the z32 or the larger housing, but the 3.0 is good for roughly 300whp.

When I dyno'd my last engine I topped the MAF out at 312. Once I changed the MAF and injectors it pulled like a madman, but never got to dyno again. I'm assuming since your NA numbers were so high, you'll be well over 300, so just wanted to see what your MAF setup is gonna look like.


**Edit...I see you chose the ID maf? Can you elaborate on that...the diameter is the same as the Z32, but can it meter the same amount of air? (5v I think?)
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Old 01-25-2008, 12:08 PM
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Originally Posted by 98MaXeDouT
Good to hear man, are you going to be running an upgraded MAF? Not sure if you have the z32 or the larger housing, but the 3.0 is good for roughly 300whp.

When I dyno'd my last engine I topped the MAF out at 312. Once I changed the MAF and injectors it pulled like a madman, but never got to dyno again. I'm assuming since your NA numbers were so high, you'll be well over 300, so just wanted to see what your MAF setup is gonna look like.


**Edit...I see you chose the ID maf? Can you elaborate on that...the diameter is the same as the Z32, but can it meter the same amount of air? (5v I think?)

Its the stock A32 MAF sensor hotwire/airfoil, stuck into a 3" ID ~4" long section of PVC pipe. So yes just like stock (since it IS a stock sensor) it reads 0v-5v. ID is slightly bigger than a Z32 MAF actually; Z32 MAF= 75mm ID, my MAF is 3" ID which= 76.5mm. Best part of all it only cost me about $20 to make instead of $75-$150 for a Z32 MAF

And yea I've been running this MAF for a few months now. Gained 10whp at redline just from putting this sucker in, not to mention the great improvement in overall driveability.
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