Stones

Hey Guys! Been lurking for a few months, trying to get a feel for the car and how it is to own it in the modern day. Just wanted to get your opinion on a potential buy.

So i'm looking to buy my first car and there is this white 1988 SE Limited for $2000.

-118K miles, pretty much a one owner car (had it since 5K)
-5 speed (on its second tranny, first had a 2nd gear grind)
-Fully loaded, everything works
-all around ABS
-Aftermarket suspension (really soft..****ty)
-one factory fog missing
-2 subs in the back
-aftermarket Sound system (don't think there is an amp)
-exterior is mildy rough.
-Does NOT pass smog (scanned code 33 for o2 sensor, owner will get it fixed before sale)

I'm in love with the look of the car. I love the interior. I love old things. I just dont' love the price. Originally I was only going to spend $1800 on this car. But with the O2 sensor going out, the owner said he wouldn't budge below $2K. I'm just not sure its worth it.

I test drove the car. The gearbox feels very unrefined. is this normal? Its tough to judge because I haven't driven many stick cars. I drove an audi, and they all shift like butter. A Mercedes 240D, felt fine. The Max just felt a bit rough.

I'm on a budget, so is owning this car expensive? Parts hard to find? I live in San Jose CA. Any advice would be very much appreciated.

Stones

forgot to mention.

Inside the engine bay:

-There was discoloration from the radiator cap. it looked like burnt coolant. I asked him if there was a coolant leak. he said no..I'll have to ask again about this.

- The battery tray (don't know the official name) was rusted. Is this a big deal? I know any rust is bad. Is it easy to find a replacement?

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

nearly any old stickshift is gonna feel notchy compared to newer cars, thats normal. dont know what you mean is up with the rad, but worst case the rad isnt too bad to replace. battery tray isnt a big deal, overall with the o2 sensors i would try and jew him down a little bit below 2 grand still

Stones

Notchy! thats the word I was looking for. Okay good to know. I tried to go to 1800, but since he's fixing the O2 sensor he is demanding 2K. I love how the car looks. I think i'm just gonna go for it. thanks man.

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

if hes doing the o2 sensors thats fair enough then. i dont think ive owned a older vehicle that didnt have a notchy trans, as long as theres minimal to no grinding its fine

seabob4

Just as a comparison, I bought mine 6 years ago, 121K on the clock, 5-speed NOT notchy, most SE options...for $1100. I've put a starter, alternator, water pump, and clutch master in her...that's been it, besides plugs/wires/dizzy/rotor.

She's at 194K now, happy as a pig in poop...

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

should have mentioned better ask when he did the timing belt last, VG are interference engines

Stones

Timing belt was done at 90K along with water pump.

I realize my price is super high, but I feel like that has to do with where I live. I'm in the silicon Valley, and EVERYTHING is inflated. Rent, cars, food, etc. Its definitely high though. I would be much happier with 1600, but he won't budge and there aren't any other cars on the market atm.

Seabob, I noticed you mentioned changing the transmission oil and noticing a positive result. also that you did some sound upgrades. I may have some questions for you if this goes through...

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

only thing i'll mention in relation to the trans is use only GL-4 gear oil. has to be GL-4 only, if it says GL-4 and GL-5 compatible on the bottle it wont work. GL-5 has stuff in it that will wreck the brass in your synchros

Redline GL-4 is good stuff, had some random grinds and other stuff in my Hardbody and switching to Redline cleared it up

seabob4

While I won't disagree with Chrome in relation to GL-4/GL-5 specs, I WILL say I've noticed no issues in the 65K or so miles I've put on her since I changed gear lube. Not knowing the spec difference at the time, I did my research (Redline, Amsoil, Lucas, Royal Purple, etc.) and decided on Royal Purple Max-Gear 75W-90 full synth, which is a GL-4/GL-5 oil. Not cheap, around $15/qt IIRC, but I've been very happy with it. I've heard/read great stuff about Redline, so that's my take...

As far as sounds, I am an Infinity speaker guy. Kappa series, just a bit more $ than Reference series. VERY efficient speakers, so not a lot of power needed (although I do have a big amp) to make them sound good. A pretty basic Kenwood HU takes care of music choices, the ipod plug is on the front face but that doesn't bother me. The key to good sound is your speakers...

Stones

Hey Guys,

Little Update:

So he got the O2 sensor fixed, but it still didn't pass. Should I just move on at this point? What are the most probable causes of failed smogs? I thought maybe he was running catless because his kid put an exhaust on it and it smelled like it had no cat. He said it does still have the cat. Any reasons the smog would fail? I'm not too experienced with cars.

Also, do you guys use Premium on your cars? I heard the rings/seals don't like cheap gas.

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

for gas you just need to run 87, old VGs wont ping with 87. the ring and seal thing depends on where you get gas from, some places wont put ethanol in their 91 or higher octane. ethanol is what chews up your injector O-rings and such. up here in Canada Shell and Esso dont put ethanol in their 91 so thats why i run 91 in all of my stuff. if you can get 87 without ethanol where you are thats fine

do you know what aspect is failing smog? no emissions control where i am so i dont know what they all do and test, but you need to find which emission chemical is out of spec

Stones

Thanks for the gas info.

No I don't know whats going on with the smog. I'm buying from the second owner and he's currently getting it smogged. he just updated me and told me it still didn't pass despite o2 sensor. Said he's gonna take it to his mechanic and get it checked out.

I'm in CA, so our emissions are pretty strict. if it doesn't pass again, I'm gonna go for a honda

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

isnt 25 years old or older smog exempt in Cali?

Stones

They changed the law a few years ago. 1975 or older is smog exempt.

Stones

This probably isn't the best place to ask this, but I'm wondering if its a good choice for me to buy this car.

My concerns:
-hard/expensive to find parts
-expensive work
-gas

The guy finally got the car to pass smog. But now I'm wondering if I should just go buy a cheap honda that will be cheap to own.

Do you guys love this car? how has owning a 2nd gen been for you in regards to your wallet?

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

theyre good cars. parts arent hard to find at all especially drivetrain parts, VG30E were used in alot of Nissan vehicles.

Stones

Got it! Thanks for all your helps guys.

Turns out the rough idle/smog fail was due to the ECU being in Test Mode.

Drove it home today, expect many questions from me. I'm a car noob and this is the first car i've ever bought!

https://gm1.ggpht.com/qO_pt_ssGOgz4T...w1168-h762-l75

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

post some pics! post whatever questions etc in this thread as well or whatever, i poke in from time to time

Stones

i'll make a seperate post after i clean it up

ac max 92

iTrader: (13)

Stones. Check out the thread about the one posted on eBay! It's in pristine condition like it just rolled off the assembly line. Current bid $1000.

Stones

I already bought mine

I overpaid big time and I'm aware of that. But I wanted a 5 speed. Thats a nice car though! Wonder what the reserve it

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

its got a reserve though and biddings already at $2500, guys probably got the big at 5 grand or something

seabob4

Stones, check out my post #6...that should answer your question...

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

Definitely buy synthetic Redline or Amsoil gear oil (with proper GL number)--Redline made a huge difference over stock/dino oil in my 4th gen. Much better shifting in cooler weather too. Enjoy the car, those are classics!

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

yep has to be GL-4 ONLY gear oil, cant be GL-4 and GL-5 certified. only GL-4. as far as i know AmsOil, RedLine, and Royal Purple still make GL-4 only oil

seabob4

Chrome...so my gearbox, which shifts like a dream, doesn't know that the RP GL-4/GL-5 is bad for it? After, like, 50K miles?

No offense sir, but either I have a VERY special gearbox, or someone is blowin smoke...

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

all depends on the content, some GL-4/GL-5 oils will still have enough sulfur content to damage brass synchronizers. i know lots of Hardbody guys that ran GL-4/GL-5 oil and it destroyed their synchros, just speaking from experience. personally in all of my old stuff its not even worth risking needing a new trans or a rebuild so i run GL-4 only

seabob4

Duly noted...

Stones

Maybe they didn't want to admit that they were bad drivers

for real though, I'm stressing out hardcore over downshifting. I have yet to master the doubleclutch and my heart sinks everytime I downshift. it kills me inside. I'll post pics very soon!

seabob4

I downshift at every slowdown/stop...EVERY one!! The key is matching the speed with what you know your engine turns at. You don't want to be downshifting from 5th to 4th when you're at, say, 60, a little brake, now at 55, that's gonna put your revs from 2500 up to 3500...no, no, no, without using the throttle to bump the revs up (speed match).

Unless I'm running hard (like I used to do with the Scirocco), brake as you slow down, then, when the speed equals the usual gear, downshift. The revs will jump a bit (say 250 to 500), totally normal, and excellent on the drive train.

I have probably 1/2 a million miles driving German and Jap 5-speeds, haven't had a single clutch or tranny failure yet. And I used to drive the Scirocco pretty hard!! She was modded, topped out at a radar 138 only turning 5200 thanks to a purpose-built 6-speed by the Z-Doctors in Winter Park...

CMax03

iTrader: (3)

My original 5 spd Hardbody went down somewhere around 300K miles and it was a bearing that failed....

Stones

Wait...you're saying to rev match here right?

Okay. So i've been driving a while and I can rev match decently now (always double clutch). But what you're saying is that when i'm braking to a deadstop I can just downshift as I'm braking? like..Downshift below 2K and I don't need to worry about revmatching? I used to do that in my friends Mercedes 240D. but when i do it now, its a bit lurchy. does that just mean i have to wait for the RPMs to drop even more? won't this put stress on the synchros/gears?

chrome91

iTrader: (1)

i double clutch if im racing or whatever but otherwise for city driving i never do. if im going to a red light i just coast in neutral and if it goes green i go into 2nd. other thing is never go into 1st gear moving

seabob4

Here's what I do in the Max. Decelerating from, let's say 60 MPH. Brake until 45 MPM, then downshift to 4th. Still braking, when I reach 35, downshift to 3rd. Around 20 MPH, into 2nd.

No problems, the speeds were a little different with the Scirocco, but the concept the same. Did the same on the ex-wife's old Chevy Sprint 5-speed. Easily over 500K miles between the 3 with no tranny issues whatsoever.

Stones

yeah thats what i do for city driving as well. i meant double clutch when i'm going at speed from 5th to 4th or 4th to 3rd. and thanks for the advice, i so far have only been letting it out in 2nd when i'm slowed to around 15 then i hit neutral and stop.

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

That seems unnecessary and will put a lot more wear on your clutch and tranny. You can claim you're so good that you rev-match perfectly every time, but no matter what in my book you're putting extra wear on the drivetrain. You can't be perfect every time. Only situation where I do that is if I think there's a good chance I'll need to accelerate (light turns green) or if I'm going down a steep hill and want the engine engaged in a low gear just in case.

When I'm coming to stop from highway speeds, I often go down to 1200 RPM (where ECU starts idle in the 4th gen) and then shift from 5th to neutral. Works just fine with less work and wear then 5-4, 4-3, 3-2. But to each his own--that's part of the fun of a stick shift!

seabob4

Vquick, the concept of "Engine Braking", and a quote from Wiki's definition...

Note how the second phrase is exactly as I described my technique. The down shift at the proper speed, I can feel the engine slow the car. My Dad taught me this many moons ago. I have had 2 tranny failures in 37 years of driving. A 1977 Olds Delta and a 1990 Ford Taurus...both automatics.

I'm not saying that my method is the "best" way or even the worst way. What I am saying is that it has worked for me, my stick cars have seemed to enjoy it, and the only thing I have ever done to (5) 5-speed vehicles is change the gear oil...oh, and a slave cylinder and clutch master on the Max. No clutches, no throw-out bearings, no pressure plates, no synchros.

While I appreciate the concerns brought up, well, you know the old saying...if it ain't broke, don't fix it.

VQuick

iTrader: (17)

I'm arguing on a theoretical basis, as I do not see a real benefit from downshifting 5-4, 4-3, 3-2 every time you slow from >40 MPH to a stop. It sounds like you are shifting literally twice as much as I do, since I only shift sequentially while accelerating, and you do it while accelerating and decelerating.

If you're really good at RPM matching and double clutching (and I imagine you are), the increase in clutch wear will be very slight. However, with every shift you are putting wear on the gearbox and synchros too, and you are making your engine do more revolutions since you're in 2nd gear where I'm still in 5th. Obviously every single revolution of the engine adds a minute amount of wear, and that adds up. Your brakes will get less wear, but your engine, tranny, and clutch will get more. Brakes are designed to slow down the car and are relatively cheap and easy to replace, so why baby them?

That's my view, but as I said, if you are doing it because that's the way you were taught and you enjoy it, that may be reason enough.