Phnx34

Any advice on how to remove this thing? It's really stuck in there! I ended up pumping the old fluid out through the radiator hose but I wanted to get in the pan to clean.

Thanks,
Paul

Pervis Anathema

iTrader: (8)

Spray some liquid wrench on the plug and let it soak in. Get a (I believe) 1 inch ratchet. Tighten the plug a LITTLE bit to break it loose. Then loosen it. It should come right out.

brubenstein

Get the transmission up to operating temp first. When the metal is warm it is easier to unscrew things. You also want the fluid warm, so all the crud is in suspension.

DanNY

iTrader: (14)

umm bad idea. the tranny case is alum. if you heat it up and try to take it out you may strip the threads. good luck trying to fix that.
try to jack up the car higher. the plug is a 1/2 inch plug. use a longer breaker bar and shoot some liquid wrench there.

brubenstein

I didn't say heat it up with an external heat source. Just run it till it warms up. Standard operating proceedure for stuck stuff. (works great with spark plugs too)

DanNY

iTrader: (14)

ok well i guess i'm wrong then. the rule (that i know) is to work on alum engines/trannies when the metal is cold. heat will soften the alum and may strip the threads if high force is used. i'm a firm believer of working on alum when cold. i guess do what works for u.

CandiMan

iTrader: (1)

Because the magnets wont stick to aluminum unless there's alot of junk mix within the aluminum. Try placing a socket the width of the drain plug and hit it with a soft face hammer, rubber mallet or dead blow hammer your choice. Or place a 1/2" extension withing the plug hole and hit it.

DanNY

iTrader: (14)

hmm..well on the VG trannies there is no pan. only drain plug at the bottom of the tranny on the tranny case it self.
yes on the VE and VQ pans are made of steel. but if you can't pull the drain plug u can always drop the pan.

CandiMan

iTrader: (1)

I thought I remember someone posting about the RE4FO2A VB mounted on top of the tranny. Now I understand that the VG only has a plug within the tranny case itself, I see your concern about stripping the threads

brubenstein

Nissan puts a thread sealant on the threads, and this is why it can be hard to take out. When the transmission is warm the sealant is softer and it's easier to remove the plug. It's easier to round off the square drive hole (it's not very deep) than to ever strip the threads.
There is a magnet attached to the end of the plug, BTW.

DanNY

iTrader: (14)

so where is the sealant that holds the spark plug and prevents it from stripping? like i said..do what works for u.
it's your car. i'm just saying that i've work on a lot of cars and talked to a lot of techs and they all say to work on the spark plugs (threads in alum) when it's cold.

brubenstein

Spark plugs are different than transmission plugs. Spark plugs see much higher heat, are made from steel (the tranny plug is alloy, so unlike spark plugs there is no corrosion due to dissimilar metals being in contact) and spark plugs should always be installed, in aluminum heads, with anti-sieze compound to prevent the two parts becoming electo-chemically welded to each other.
Lots of mechanics/techs do things, "just because" without any comprehensive understanding of why.

usedmaximaparts

NEVER remove spark plugs from a hot aluminum cylinder head. The whole thread core can come out. Use anti-seize compound and be extra careful.

Dan

DanNY

iTrader: (14)

alloy? what is in "alloy"?? (i know this..just making sure u do too)
it's how metal are made...if you put heat on to metal it WILL soften up. alum one of the softest metals out there. you heat (raising the temperature) it will get soft. please explain your theory to me then. i don't understand how raising the temp of the metal around the spark plug will help you take out the plugs.
go pull a spark plug off a engine from the factory. the dealers and techs don't do thing "just because"..please give me some resource or publication out there that says you should remove spark plugs while the engine is warm. where did u get this information from? did u just figure this out on your couch watching TV?
all of the books and shop manuals give u specific information to wait until the engine head is cool b4 you decide to pull the spark plugs. but if you know more than Nissan and all other vehicle manufacture out there that you should change the plugs while the engine is warm then please write to them and tell them that their books and inforamation are wrong and make some $ out of it. if you work on your car i recommend getting yourself a full set of heli coils.

CandiMan

iTrader: (1)

When dealing with a hot component (eng, trans, raditor) they always mention work on them when cold to prevent any possible personal injuries. All publications will always say this because they dont want to placed in any liability situations. Why do some techs will use acetylene torch to remove a stubborne rusted bolt by heating the surrounded area. Dont get me worng, I'm not saying to heat a tranny or spark plug with a torch.

brubenstein

Hey Danny!

I never said to heat anything up with an external heat source. Just do things on a warm engine. Aluminum alloys do not soften up at the temperatures that an engine runs at. If the did, the engine would sieze up. Spark plugs are easier to tak out when the engine is warm, because aluminum has a higher coeficent of expansion than steel does, so the spark plug hole is a little bigger warm than cold.
You can proove this to yourself any time you want to. Put in 2 new spark plugs and tighten them with a torque wrench, so they are equally tight. Drive around for a couple of weeks. Then remove them with the torque wrench: one with the engine warm the other cold. See which one requires more torque to break free.
I worked for years as a motorcycle mechanic and prepared/road raced motorcycles. About the only way to strip spark plug holes, is to cross thread a plug when you put one in, over tighten it on a very short reach plug or leave it in so many years it welds to the head.
And, yes, the reason they tell you work on a cold engine is to keep from getting burned.
Dan, do you also change your oil when it's cold also? I've seen more cases of striped holes in crank case pans than spark plug holes.

BTW, try cutting one of those "soft" aluminum pistons that has a high silica content alloy.

DanNY

iTrader: (14)

the oil pan is steel right? wouldn't be stronger than alum? external heat or engine heat..heat is heat..no? if you can't turn it with your hand then don't turn it w/ a wrench. and yeah i change oil when it's hot because i like to take risks. you think i'm sitting here BSing you? i also have the real world experience. i'll do your experiment..but if the thread goes out then you can buy me a new engine...deal? tight or not would you agree the hole and thread was made for that spark plug? so if you let the alum expand wouldn't that give you more margin of error? coming out or going in looser? also when you tighten the spark plug on a warm head..from your theory couldn't u say that you are overtorqueing because the alum is expanded while u torque in the spark plug?
from the beginning i said...DO WHAT WORK FOR YOU. I'm giving you my opinion that alum is soft when it's warm (outside heat or engine heat). for some reason u don't seem to believe that alum gets soft when it's warm. now if the metal is softer wouldn't you agree there is a greater chance of stripping the threads? again i repeat DO WHAT WORKS FOR YOU. i like working on cold alum..you like to work on warm alum. let it go man..let it go.

brubenstein

Softening vs. temperature is not a linear relationship. (Coeficient of expansion is.) It isn't until metals start getting close to thier melting point that significant softening occurs. There is no significant difference in the hardness of aluminum at 75 vs. 175 degrees.
If the threads fall out of your head, because it was 175 degrees, when you took out a spark plug, I buy you a new engine.

DanNY

iTrader: (14)

getting all technical on me here i see... expansion..why would u need it to expand to take out the spark plug? so it's expanded when you install the spark plug and when you torque it down..wouldn't be over torqued when the head is cold? answer that question and i'm done.

brubenstein

A screw is a ramp wrapped around a rod. When you screw things together is using a ramp for mechanical advantage. The face of the ramp, for a screw, is the side of the thread (not the edge). All the torque usde for turning a bolt that does not make it elongate is friction.(the elasticity of the metal used to make the screw/bolt is what provides the clamping action - this is also why ceratin bolts should only be used once: once they are stretched they are "used up") A tight hole, roughness, dirt, etc., will give an erounous torque reading: The twisting force is right, but the tension on the screw/bolt is low. This is why assemblies that have critical torque specs neet the threads to be cleaned and lubricated before assymbling.
A spark plug is a little different, what you're looking for is a good electrical connection and a gas tight seal. It's the sides of the threads that do the sealing along with the gasket. With less friction, it's easier to feel when the gasket had been properly compressed.

DanNY

iTrader: (14)

you like to talk around my question. we're talking alum expansion and torque cold and hot...simple as that. no need for this long technical bs. i'm talking about a spark plug and u toss in a screw and bolt and etc. you're talking to me like i don't know what i'm doing here. you don't think i know how a bolt/screw work? geeez! it's a basic yes or no answer..of no explain why.

brubenstein

No significant difference (will not over tighten warm), because new plugs are assumed to have clean threads and anti-sieze on them, and hence less friction.

DanNY

iTrader: (14)

ok thank you..so to sum it up..even with the alum expanded (warm/hot) it won't be too tight when it contracts back to cold? (again yes and no answer)

Matt93SE

iTrader: (44)

The reasoning for removing them when warm is basically just for ease of removal purposes.. Yes, they're easier to remove that way, because the metal is expanded slightly, so the hole is a little larger than when cold.
As for cold-removal-torque, they won't be overtightened to the point that it'll cause damage. most of the torque in tightening spark plugs is to crush the gasket ring and lost in friction on the threads of the plug. by tightening on the warm block, you lower the friction on the threads, making it easier to turn. that's it. Again, yeah it'll be harder to remove later with a cold engine, but it's not so much that it'll cause damage- IF tightened correctly when it's warm.

As for the tranny end of things, warm fluid is 150-160F. cold fluid this time of year is ~70F. that 100F difference isn't enough to cause any problems at all with the aluminum stripping. torquing the heads on a hot engine are something else.. they're likely to be 250+ in temp when you first pull them, if you do it on a HOT engine. this is definitely not recommended.

brubenstein

Torquing hot heads is a BIG no no, because the torque specs are given for a cold engine. Torquing a hot, expanded head would give very low cold, small head torque.
It's a very different torque story when two parts are being held together, rather than pluging a hole.

bill99gxe

iTrader: (1)

I never have though much about this, but I usually let the motor cool down for 20 to 30 minutes......after that I don't see harm in doing plugs.

As for the auto tranny plug, I've done this 4 weekends in a row......so far I haven't stripped anything or noticed any problems with the plug itself. The fluid was relatively warm, but not hot by any means.....

The thread sealant makes it HELL to get it off the first time. My best method was removing the splash screen in the driver side wheel well and turning the front tires all the way to the left. That allowed me enough leverage with my Craftsman 1/2" drive ratchet to break the plug loose.