joeybec007

So I took my 1991 max SE into a shop yesterday to check out an unrealted clutch issue and was told an additional thing was wrong, that the max is only running on 5 cylinders. He said somehitng about how when I try to accellerate at low RPM's that the engine shudders slightly, but it goes away in rpm's over 1500, and that was a symptom of one cylinder not functioning. i'm not very car literate so my questions are: Is the basis for the mechanics argument valid? If it is running on five cylinders is it damaging the engine? Are the weak fuel injectors on the max the most likely cause for this? How much would a repair on the fuel injectors cost? and finally is this a common problem for maximas. The reason i ask this is that since this car only has 70,000 miles on it, will this be a problem in the future. Hopefully someone out there has an idea.

Loe max

iTrader: (6)

How does it idle? Does it miss at idle? Can you here a pop-pop-pop at idle near the muffler?

joeybec007

I'll go outside and check

joeybec007

wow, i guess it idles kind of rough, it starts out smooth when in 2000 rpm, but once it settles down it starts goin, duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh-duh very softly and the exaust smoke comes out in soft rhythmic bursts.

Wiking

What are the compression test readings?

internetautomar

iTrader: (30)

go pull the spark plug wires one at a time, and you'll see which cylinder isn't firing.
it's probably a bad injector, fairly common on these cars

Loe max

iTrader: (6)

Injectors, especially at this age, would more than likely need replacement. I would follow the directions in FAQ to see how to diagnose an injector failure.

Did you test listen to the exhaust when the engine was near normal operating temperature? It sounds as though it might be missing.

joeybec007

yeah, it wasn't exactly at normal operating temperature, i waited about 1 min before listeining to the engine. yeah, i'll give all of your ideas a try as soon as i get some time, anyone have an estimate of how much this might cost to fix?

fred

iTrader: (2)

Quote: "this car only has 70,000 miles on it"
how can the injectors be bad with 70000 miles? and where did you find a 91 with 70000 miles?

joeybec007

Well, a 91 can have 70,000 miles on it if u don't drive it, like my grandpa, who bought it new for his summer home and drove it a little every summer then sold it to me. I guess time has some effect on injectors as well as milage, at least that what the mechanic told me. This car probably sat around a lot which could have had an adverse effect on the injectors

Mizeree_X

iTrader: (9)

There was a VE 5-speed w/ 75k for sale near me as of last week.....they are out there. Heck, my current car had 67k on it when I bought it a year and a half ago.

Slamnasty

If there are Ford Pintos with under 5000 original miles being sold on eBay, a 91 Max SE with 70,000 is entirely feasible.

This is an injector problem for sure. You're lucky if it's a bad plug. Thankfully injector replacement on VGs is less expensive than on VEs.

alpicone

A few months ago I saw a '91 SE with 18k mi. On it. It caught my attention because it was really clean. The taillights looked sooo clean just like the pics in the brochure.

Anyway back to the issue, it is prob the injector. But you have to make sure it isnt something else before you spend money on an injector and it ends up being the spark plug. So do some troubleshooting first.

As far as price goes, the injector is between $100 - $180 depending on where you get it from. Internetautomart has them for $115 shipped which is a good price.

The labor should cost between $150 and $200. When your mechanic does it, watch him carefully so you can do it yourself next time. Not such a hard job just time consuming.

It would also be a good idea once you are paying for the labor to be done have him change the fuel rail lines and clamps. If they havent started leaking already they will so you might as well do it now and save yourelf the labor when it does happen. You only need a few inches so go to an auto parts store and pick up a foot of Fuel Injection Hose 5/16 ID and the clamps, so your mechanic will prob not charge anythin extra to do it.

joeybec007

BTW, 1991 maximas have VG's and they are more expensive i think
Fuel Injector Prices
"89-92 (VG30E) Note: with blue or black markings on original injector $115 SHIPPED! Each
92-94 SE (VE30DE):$100 SHIPPED! Each"

Slamnasty

Well maybe the part is more money, but not the labor. I paid $1600 to have all six of mine done at one time. The majority of that cost lied in the disassembly and reassembly of the massive VE intake, which of course the offending injector was underneath. If it was in the front I probably could've done it myself.

ArcticDC5

Don't buy new injectors. Do what I did, go to the junkyard and look for 3rd gens. The first thing you need to do is look on the odometer for low mileage. I hit the jackpot after the other 3rd gens ranged from 170k-220k miles. It was just sitting there with only 89k on it, I started going to work and about an hour later, I had the injectors and fuel rail out of it. I also grabbed an egr valve, maf sensor and iac valve while I was at it. So now my car is running top notch. $600+ for injectors, yeah right. Thats half the amount I bought my '91 for.

internetautomar

iTrader: (30)

his car only has 70k on it, you really think he's going to find lower mileage injectors in the yard?
and used injectors lack the updates of the new ones.

if you're paying someone to do the labor then DO NOT risk used/ rebuilt injectors on this car PLEASE. the defect rate is to high, and then you get stuck paying labor multiple labors.

ArcticDC5

internetautomar,

I'm not trying to take away business (i've purchased a muffler from you). Just making a suggestion. Plus, when doing it yourself, when taking a junkyard engine apart, its much easier to work on yours when doing the swap.

internetautomar

iTrader: (30)

I didn't think you were, I just state my OPINION. Very rarely do I aim my comments at any person in particular. SO I hope I didn't offend or insult you.

Phatsta

If you want you can try what I did, it's not gonna last forever but it'll give you some time to save up to fuel injector replacement. Use a fuel additive, I'm using X-1R, it's a really good booster that was developed partially by NASA, it made wonders with my injectors and engine overall. But it takes like 3 tanks or so, so be patient.

94_sin_city_max

yea i had the same problem....i had a bad injector...i just changed it recently and now it runs like new

joeybec007

Well, I took it in and got it worked on, it took 2 days and here's what the statement reads:

TUNE ENGINE - SIX CYLINDER INCLUDES =
REPLACE CAP, ROTOR, SPARK PLUGS, POINTS AND CONDENSOR (IF NEEDED),
SAFETY CHECK - INCLUDES cHECKING BRAKES, LIGHTS, TIRES, SUSPENSION, AND ALL FLUID LEVELS, REPLACE AIR FILTER AND TEST DRIVE.
126.40 (LABOR) + 176.75 (PARTS) = 303.15
#2 CYLINDER NOT FIRING
1 DISTRIBUTOR CAP: 28.05 (PARTS)
1 DISTRIBUTOR ROTOR: 8.07 (PARTS)
1 IGNITION WIRE SET: 119.63 (PARTS)
6 SPARK PLUGS: 21.00 (PARTS)

REPLACE FUEL INJECTORS------237.00 (LABOR) + 199.42 (PARTS) = 436.42
1 FUEL INJECTOR: 165.00 (PARTS)
6 FUEL INJECTOR O-RING 16618-10V00: 16.62 (PARTS)
6 FUEL INJECTOR O-RING 16618-10V05: 4.02 (PARTS)
1 INTAKE PLENUN GASKET 14032-89E00: 6.03 (PARTS)
1 INTAKE PLENUN GASKET 14032-89E01: 7.51 (PARTS)

CLEAN FUEL SYSTEM = INCLUDES CLEANING ENTIRE FUEL SYSTEM WITH MOTORVAC CLEANING SOLUTION---102.70 (LABOR) + 43.70 (PARTS = 146.40
2 MOTORVAC CLEANER: 43.70

TOTAL DUE: 974.47

This bill seemed a little high for me, when all i asked was to get my problem fixed, which was to replace the injector. I just wanted to know what you guys think about this.

alpicone

Whoa, This is way to much for the job! Who did you bring this to? Is this the dealer or a regular mechanic. Either way it is way too high. Do not pay this much they are ripping you off. But at this point I dont know what you can do. Did they give you these prices before they did the work?



Granted the shop should be marking up the prices a little to make a profit but they are taking you for a ride. And you were charged $450+ in labor for about 4 hrs work.

James92SE

iTrader: (31)

Dayuuuuuuuuuum to quote a crappy movie 'you got served'

Hah, $200 for fuel system cleaner?!

Dude you could've gotten two complete low-mileage perfect condition VG's for what you paid..

internetautomar

iTrader: (30)

what time did they claim for labor? or did they just say this is your labor total for this job.
it's a shop guys , that means he has a right and a responsibility to mark up the parts.
the injector is a tab bit high. if you want I can go through and get labor times and dealer list on the parts.
did you take this to the dealer? or to a local shop?

blacks92seAuto

I got a question...would if you have an aftermarket muffler and when it idles it makes kind of a popping sound. but the car is running fine on all 6 cylinders..... Is this possible?

nelledge

iTrader: (6)

With the experience of working in a few dealerships, that price seems reasonable for most shops. The only thing I see as a rip-off is the injector cleaner. They hook up a machine that pressurizes cleaner through the fuel system. Labor takes about 5-15 min depending on car. I did my S13 in about ten the first time. Our dealership also charged about 1oo bucks labor menu price. What a load!!!

Jackrabbit

Just personal expierience. My car had a miss that got less severe as it warmed up and once in a while would go away all together. I proceeded to find the cylinder with the miss and thought it was the injector. Then I read the artical about the gas smell. and realized I had smelled gas a few times. Fixed the hose and there ya go she runs like new. It seems the leak was letting enough pressure out to disturb the injector. Just an idea to troubleshoot if doing labor yourself before buying an injector.

joeybec007

They did not give me a amount of time but just a flat total for their labor, and this was taken to a local shop.

internetautomar

iTrader: (30)

Labor Operation Skill Est. Sell Yrs
1 Adjust Ignition Timing C 0.5 35.00 91-92
Includes: Adjust dwell
Includes: Check ignition & emission control system using analyzer
2 Analyze Engine Performance B 0.7 49.00 91-92
Includes: Check ignition & emission control system using analyzer
NOTE: Add 2 for wet compression retest on gas engines
7 Tune Electronic Ignition (MINOR) B 2.0 140.00 90-91
Includes: Check compression Clean or replace plugs & air cleaner Inspect &/or re
8 * Diagnosis Fuel Injection System B 0.8 56.00 91-92
9 * R&R Or Clean Fuel Filter B 0.2 14.00 91-92
10 * Test Electronic Ignition System B 0.5 35.00 91-92
3 R&R Distributor Cap C 0.5 35.00 91
Includes: Replace rotor
4 R&R Electronic Ignition Control Unit B 0.6 42.00 91-92
Includes: Testing
5 R&R Ignition Coil C 0.5 35.00 91
Includes: Testing
6 R&R Power Transistor C 0.6 42.00 91
Includes: Test wires
7 R&R Spark Plug Wire Set C 0.9 63.00 90-91
Includes: Test wires
8 R&R Spark Plugs C 0.9 63.00 90-91

1 Clean Fuel Injector B 0.7 49.00 91-92
Includes: Disable fuel supply system, run engine on pressurized injector deterge
Includes: Visual inspection, fuel pressure test & electronic control system test
2 Diagnosis Fuel Injection System B 1.4 98.00 91-92
Includes: Visual inspection, fuel pressure test & electronic control system test
3 * Balance Test Fuel Injector B 0.5 35.00 91-92
4 R&R Air Cleaner Element D 0.3 21.00 91-92
R&R Fuel Injector
14 All B 2.2 154.00 90-91
15 * R&R Caulked Injector Bores B 0.7 49.00 90-94
R&R Induction Manifold
17 Upper B 1.6 112.00 89-91
18 Lower Or Both B 1.8 126.00 89-91
19 R&R Intake Manifold Gasket B 2.8 196.00 89-91
20 * Replace Intake Manifold B 0.6 42.00 91-92




all the prices are based off a $70 an hour labor rate, don't forget to add in the extras (stuff marked with a * )
The info is pulled straight out of the online Mitchell labor guide.

joeybec007

Well, all has gone well since the repair except for one thing. After the repair the car has been getting really bad mileage, before I was able to get as much as 390 miles from one tank of gass, now i'm getting about 290. is there a mechanical reason why this is possible? It the one cylinder is hogging 100 miles?

internetautomar

iTrader: (30)

Lead foot?

sara92max

One thing that should have been replaced on a tune up is the O2 sensor...it will cause loss of MPG.....

joeybec007

haha, no i'm a pretty conservative driver, which comes from having to pay gas on the car. i'll check that O2 thing though