i had a pretty nice accident recently sliding through black ice, maybe 20 ft, whole road was coated like an ice-rink. the max got pretty ****ed up hitting a curb. the control arms nearly tore off the chassis. i've gotten most of the damaged pieces off... but i can't get this control arm to budge.
- the part indicated by the green dot rotates freely(though very sticky), along with the rest of the arm, with some sort of rubber bushing underneath,
- the part indicated by the red dot will not budge whatsoever.

i think the force of the accident pulling back on the control arm may have warped it to the point that it is pinching the large bolt. i tried a puller, a lot of wiggling, pushing pulling tapping. etc.
how the hell can i get this off?

thanks guys
t

 

Wow. Since the arm is toast, maybe you can cut it off. ie.. right above the red/green marks you made.

 

even if i cut through the top, i guess i'd have to cut through the opposite side as well and take it off that way. the insulator in red can stay on though? and a new arm will slide over it? its hard to tell
t

 

actually i think i see what you mean. i'd cut through both. there isn't anything between the control arm and the gusset in the FSM, so i guess what must have happened is that the control arm's insulation disintegrated down to the point where it rotates without the inside piece rotating, which is either just plain stuck to the gusset, or pinching it from the warping.
thanks
t

 

have you tried removing the whole arm with the "gusset" still attached? The gusset is the piece there with the stud that the control arm slides onto. It just has a couple large bolts (19 or 22mm maybe?) and you can take it down. If it's the pass side (I think it is from the pics), you have to support the engine with a jack and lower the back of the crossmember a little to get it out, but it's not that hard at all.

I'm not sure if you'd be able to separate it more easily when those pieces are off the car. If not, get a junkyard gusset piece.

 

i could definitely get the piece out with the gusset. i just really didn't want to jack the engine up... now its looking like that will make more sense. i haven't located a replacement gusset yet... or determined if this one is warped at all. i'll have to call some local salvage yards.
thanks craig and jeff
t

 

that inner bushing is common to freeze onto the control arm gusset (the long bolt thing in the middle). it's just the way things are.. that's not because of the wreck.

the wya to get it off is to unbolt the rest of the control arm, then twist and pull and curse and pull some more until you get it off. most likely you will rip that bushing into pieces.
If you have a 2-jaw puller, then this becomes quick work. just rip it apart- you're goign to throw it away anyway.


now, take a blowtorch and a large pair of channel locks and start cooking that inner metal sleeve that's left on the gusset. this is the only way to get it off. use a scraper or the channel locks to scrape all the rubber off that sleeve when you first start cooking it. if you don't, the rubber will just absorb the heat and the metal bushing won't ever get hot (trust me, I've done this at least 50 times now on customer cars- not exaggerating either.)
once you get the bushing nice and hot, then grab it with the pliers and start twisting. if you can get it to twist, then you're making progress. (this sometimes takes 10 minutes of torching first!). twist the sleeve while you're trying to pull it off the end of the gusset. when you get it 1/4" off or so, you should be able to get the jaws of a puller on it and then use the puller to finish the work. be sure to keep torching it on occasion though, because it'll freeze on there again when it cools off.. keep it hot and it will stay moving.
If you don't have a puller, then just keep torching it and pulling & twisting with the pliers.

when you put the new one back on, be sure to put a small blob of grease or anti sieze on the gusset before you slide the control arm on. that may help prevent this from happening next time.

 

holy geez.
i was really close to taking the blow torch out before, hoping to cook the bushing insulation so i could slide at least the arm off. i was thinking that might cause a fire though with a busted oil pan and all kind of **** everywhere. i'll just clean it all up and torch that b*tch now. i already bent my 2 arm puller on it trying to pull it off.
i had to hacksaw through the connecting rod bolt, because the bent control arm had pinched it but good. so i'm sick of sawing, it's time for a lil' torchin
thanks matt
t

 

plus...
i got a whole lot of work ahead of me... check out the passenger side drive shaft.... haha, probably extended a little bit beyond its limits.

 

Doesn't look that bad?

 

long as the axle isn't bent or the joints aren't damaged, you won't have a problem with the axle.

don't worry about the oil either. it's not flammable like gasoline- it has to be heated up to about 350-450 degrees before you can stick a match on it and make it burn.. you're not going to get anywhere near that, and there's not enough oil there to continue burning even if you do get it started.

 

I've done this before. Put the upper control arm nut back on half way and grab a jaw puller to pry it out. Now you gotta be careful here. When using the jaw puller, don't try to pull it all the way out cuz the rubber thingy is too strong. yeah despite its look, you might be thinking there were no rubber attached but it does, trust me. just twist the jaw puller until the arm comes out about half a cm at a time and cut any stinky rubber portion with a razor NOT a torch (Don't ever use a torch here) until there is none left. keep repeating untill the entire arm came off. there was one time I was being a meat head, I keep twisting the jaw puller and broke 3 of them in row. talking about a fun lesson.

 

Do like mat93 said..I recently did this myself. Unbolt entire control arm and twist and rotate it like hell untill the rubber tears apart and u can get it off,then you are left with the metal part of the bushing..take a dremel cut off tool and cut 2 lines through it the width of a small chissel then pry off that piece then using large pipe wrench twist the rest off..45 min max I had mine off. You can order one from ebay motors or one of the guys in here..should be no more than $70 for entire control arm. Good luck

 

Complete control arm $62.50

 

hmmm... well i would definitely like to not replace the driveshafts. i'm suprised they could take that kind of extension. on the driver side there is a little tranny fluid leaking, but i am guessing that is from the tow-truck idiots pulling the driveshaft out of the tranny a little bit.
the driveshaft pictured slammed back into the chassis, making a fist size dent... but the driveshaft itself didn't bend or get contorted at all, it's just extended as far back in the wheel well as mechanically possible.... i assumed it was messed up.
i'll get a better idea once i get this f***ing control arm off. i am in new york city right now but hopefully i'll have it off by tonight.
internet automart - i will probably order from you, i usually do, but not until i know all the parts, there is a lot more than control arms. maybe i could save on bulk shipping.
everyone has been so helpful, i am definitely donating to the .org. when you think about it, its more valuable than any of these job-specific tools i've acquired and i throw a lot of money that way, i should throw some this way too.
t

 

exactly what i did. made 2 slits in it. peeled it back like a bananna...off it went.

 

where in NYC are you at?

 

when you're ready let me know and I'll see what I can do on a package.

 

danny - i was in park slope, where i was born. but the car is in new jersey, in my parent's garage, the only place i have to work on it. i gotta say everytime i'm in nyc i see so many 3rd gens, its ridiculous, especially in brooklyn/queens
brian - i'll know within a few days, and i'll pm you.
t

 

matt - you were absolutely right about the torch. after i did the first one, i had the technique down and had the driver-side control arm off in less than 10 minutes. wow it was easy too.
- i attached the two jaw puller, then got it a bit tight, not very. at this point i sparked the torch and let the propane go to work.... torched/scraped/pulled a few turns more, repeat. in that order it took about 2-3 minutes to get the arm off.
- i then torched and scraped the rubber off, attached a vice grip, and heated until i got a little wiggle, which only took a few minutes, at that point i continued to heat it as i wiggled it off the end, it only got easier once it started.

i did also wrap the driveshaft boot in aluminum, a few layers, to protect it from the heat and flames.

here are the mangled arms.

what i'm noticing now that they are off is that the driver side gusset, when viewed from the front of the car, seems to have pulled off to the side. looks like i'll need to find a way to (relatively) gently move it back or replace the gusset. unless of course its supposed to have that angle, though i doubt that.


the driveshaft is incredibly strong if it has survived this accident without damage, look at where it slammed into the chassis, there isnt a nick, dent or a bend in the shaft either. amazing.


the only thing i can determine beyond that is the great amount of play in the driveshaft joint, it moves on all 3 axis... but without any sounds or symptoms of damage...


guys i cant thank you enough for all the help, this accident occured at the worst point of a bad year and i nearly gave the maxima up for lost. i feel like its turning around now.
t

 

okay, I would replace the pass side axle after seeing that. it sould be able to pivot and move in/out of the join easily, but there should be no vertical or fore/aft play in it at all. if there is, then something is damaged.
also looks as if the axle has been bent a bit looking in this pic:
http://www.geocities.com/thomasablair/driveshdent.jpg



as for the bent control arm gusset on the driver's side, that may be bad news. go to a junkyard and get a set of control arms from them.. www.car-part.com usually they give you the gussets with the arm. expect to pay about $50 each for them. that will at least get you up and running.
the only thing I'm afraid of is that the mounting points on the frame are bent with the old gusset and that you may not be able to get the new one on.. in that case, you'll probably have to go to a frame alignment shop and have them tweak it back into place. take both your new and old control arms when you go and they should be able to get things lined up. only drawback is that it's going to cost some money. i'm guessing a couple hundred bucks for the frame pull, but it depends on the amount of damage, the shop's rates, how busy they are ( I have a feeling they're going to be really busy after this last huge ice storm that hit the whole country!), etc etc.

good luck man..

 

My 89 the gusset is welded on...hmmm wonder if that was an aftermarket job?..

 

gov - i think so. i've removed the gussets now and they fall right off when the bolts are undone. perhaps previous owner had an accident?

matt - let me explain the axle-play better.

- on the passenger side, where the half-shaft comes out of the support bearing (slide joint?) ((where the 3 colored arrows are in the picture)):
at this point the assembly will slide in and out of the support bearing, thats fine i understand. there really isnt any vertical play, i checked more carefully this time, but the whole assembly WILL swing toward the front and back of car. Picture the disc brake, with suspension knuckle attached, control arms off, sorting of rocking back and forth in the wheel well... like the pendulum on a grandfather clock. it can move left and right, be pushed or pulled out a little, but doesn't move up or down at all.
wow, i wish there was a better way to determine if it was damaged without pulling it.
i also checked on that driveshaft bend with a straightedge... i think it just distortion from the parabolic lense in the camera.
t

 

Wow, that's a lot of damage.... too bad I came in too late to help any, but I did the same thing as Governor and DanNY to get my inner sleeve off. I became quite proficient with the Dremel cut-off wheels as a result of all this. As much as I love fire, I couldn't bring myself to torch anything around there.

Good luck, hopefully the car will be straight after this and you won't need to take it to a bodyshop to get the frame bent back in place or anything...

 

well it looks that way but its not. What is actually welded on is the arm going out itself (what the control arm sits on) but you have to replace the whole assy. that it is welded onto. I cant remember how many bolts it is but its several up in the holes of the part.

Here are some pics of what I am talking about:

 

i got the gussets off. i'll post a picture, but i'm fairly certain the damage is limited to just the control arms and gusset bolt... thank god. i like how these 2 simple and inexpensive bolt-ons absorbed 90% of the accident's force.
i do think the axle is gone too... here is a diagram of what i was trying to explain earlier.
if there is not supposed to be any fore/aft play, then this one is totally busted. BUT i think we may misunderstand each other. i mean to say that the play is limited to the entire arm, there is no play other than the (in/out) inch or so WITHIN the joint. check it out:

its definitely not too late to help :P i'm just getting started here
t

 

actually, scratch that... its more like 6-8 inches, not 12-14 as depicted.

 

sorry gotta bump on christmas - have a halfshaft lined up that needs to be bought within 24 hours or not at all.
can anyone tell if this range of movement is okay? or does it indicate that it is destroyed?

 

no, that's fine. that fore/aft play is because the axle has to be able to bend as the suspension moves. well, the axle also turns... Sooo, the axle is basically set up as a ball & socket type joint.. it will pivot in any direction, but it doesn't allow the end to twist separate from the transmission (so you can have all ranges of movement, but still apply torque to the wheels).

So I think you're okay on the axle.

the gusset also looks normal. I was hoping you didn't bend the frame, and it doesn't sound like you did. try to pick up the gusset at a junkyard and hope it bolts up. If so, then just bolt the gusset and control arm on and put it back together. If not, then you need a bit of a frame pull. you should be able to take the new and ole piece to the shop and have them straighten it out for you (see above posts for elaboration on that.)

 

matt - thanks so much for checking in, i'll post some pictures and details as i put it all back together so this thread is at least worth something to others.
t

 

on my way back to aligning everything again... i put the new control arm on the driver's side, bolted the ball joint - and the transmission fluid started leaking out!
its coming out of where the driveshaft enters the transmission.
what i'm thinking is:

that the shaft either got pulled out a little by the tow truck

or

that the seal was damaged by the movement of the driveshaft.

i'm not sure which is more probable. the leak is slow, maybe a drip every 30-40 seconds. the wheel is off, the car is jacked up, so the angle could not possibly be right, if that makes a difference, but! all suspension pieces are attached.

if i use a block of wood, could i pound the shaft back into the trans. so that the seal fits again? ... not sure what step to take next in diagnosing.
thanks a million if you read this
tom

 

Try jamming it back in. I'm guessing it got pulled out a bit by the accident or truck.

 

I hope you and your max are better now.

Regarding the axel. I took my pathfinder in for service at the dealer, and after what I think I remember as an oil change, the truck started to have vibrations at highway speeds (around 60mph). I went back to dealer and they re-balanced tires 3 times to no avail.

I ended up driving like that for about a month before I took it to a good year dealer and as soon as I mentioned the problem, the manager told the mechanic to check the axels. Sure enough, they had to replace the passenger side axel, and it was all fine.

Dealer denied any wrongdoing, but this was the event that got me started to doing my own work on cars (not to mention another Nissan (who is also VW dealer) stripped my wife's (then my gf) Jetta's oil pan thread, and after the service manager denied wrongdoing, I "goto the showroom" which requires that I cut through the work area, and I see a mechanic use impact wrench to drive the oil pan plug on another car! When I pointed this out, they claimed that he uses the gun to put the plug in but not tight, and then use box wrench to tighten it. Yeah right...

The same dealer also cut my wife's brake cable (this is before we met), and she almost got into an accident driving out of the dealer.

I have no respect for local area dealer service (no offense to anyone here who are mechanics, I just don't know of any good dealer mechanics around here)...

Anyway, I would keep eye out for strange vibrations that come and go at various speeds (since bent axel will oscillate at different rates at different speeds, and at certain speeds, the bent portion spends about equal time all around the axel, "balancing itself).

Anyway, good luck,

 

Tom, I hope everything's okay with your tranny seal. The driver's side had very little resistance when yanked on (at least for my '92 VG). One thing I am paranoid about is that on mine, when I did that (plus tried to replace axel seal), the car ended up gaining strange torque steer. The steering would wobble during acceleration.

Another note, apparently the driver's axel isn't supposed to be "pulled-out", and I was told on this forum that driver's axel being pulled out might damage the inner CV joint, although considering the lack of resistance before the circlip gives up in the tranny end, I cannot see how this would seriously damage the joint...

Please tell us how it all goes. I for one am anxious and hoping for the best.

 

sorry to get back to this so late! thanks for the concern... i should add that replacing the circular clip and hammering the axle back in with a block of wood as a buffer was the solution and nothing has given me even a whisper of trouble in any department since then.
t