Talked w/ a Nissan Tech today (VTC related)
02-24-2005, 04:47 PM
#1
Talked w/ a Nissan Tech today (VTC related)
And he told me that most VTC rebuilds fail because Nissan techs actually had a special tool to do the rebuild, and so those without the tool or tech who didn't learn to do the rebuilds (ie were trained after the VTC epidemic first hit) didn't do them properly (sorry Aaron). He said that in the heyday, they were selling 2-4 sets of new VTCs per week. He also said that people added Rislone to their oil to try and prevent rebuilds from failing once installed (if the gallies weren't cleaned as well). Interesting info.
02-24-2005, 05:46 PM
#7
I had a Nissan tech tell me its impossible to rebuild VTC's. 
The only thing I would watch out for with them is to make sure the spring hasn't worn away the base too much. The only thing I can think of is him talking about not reassembling everything in the same spot as disassembled, however I do not see how that can really make a difference as long as the inner part of the assembly (part that mounts to the cam) and the outter sprocket line up once fully assembled.
The only thing I would watch out for with them is to make sure the spring hasn't worn away the base too much. The only thing I can think of is him talking about not reassembling everything in the same spot as disassembled, however I do not see how that can really make a difference as long as the inner part of the assembly (part that mounts to the cam) and the outter sprocket line up once fully assembled.
02-24-2005, 06:39 PM
#8
please there is absolutely nothing to rebuilding the VTCs.
All you do is seperate them mark them and put them back together.
If you push them all the way back together then you will not have problems with them seperating. If you mark them correctly then there is no way to put them together wrong (but that is the key I do believe.
Granted I do not have many miles on mine (4K probably) but mine dont even think about making a noise...startup or not. I think if they would have failed form improper rebuild it would have happened by now though
It really is that easy to do. I mean their special tool is a round ball. I used a ball hammer and it worked just fine.
All you do is seperate them mark them and put them back together.
If you push them all the way back together then you will not have problems with them seperating. If you mark them correctly then there is no way to put them together wrong (but that is the key I do believe.
Granted I do not have many miles on mine (4K probably) but mine dont even think about making a noise...startup or not. I think if they would have failed form improper rebuild it would have happened by now though
It really is that easy to do. I mean their special tool is a round ball. I used a ball hammer and it worked just fine.
02-24-2005, 07:29 PM
#12
well i guess its just impossible to trust a dealer. Mrgone was told you cant rebuild them and Mizeree was told there was a special tool involved that made it fail.
i believe that they werent fixed right on purpose if they can charge $100 an hour to fix it, im sure it would need fixed pretty often.
Ok off topic(sorta related story) I read a story on a guy who drove around almost the entire US with 1 pulled spark plug wire making his car buck and bog down. Now the car had 15000 miles on it and was perfectly fine other than that. And when he rolled into a shop, he got people saying he needed a tune-up to needing a new distrib. cap to needing new air filter to needing new cat. to needing new struts of all things. Nobody ever just plugged the wire back in. Anyway my point is shops will take you for anything if you let them. it was a really interesting story none the less (in an old car and driver magazine)
i believe that they werent fixed right on purpose if they can charge $100 an hour to fix it, im sure it would need fixed pretty often.
Ok off topic(sorta related story) I read a story on a guy who drove around almost the entire US with 1 pulled spark plug wire making his car buck and bog down. Now the car had 15000 miles on it and was perfectly fine other than that. And when he rolled into a shop, he got people saying he needed a tune-up to needing a new distrib. cap to needing new air filter to needing new cat. to needing new struts of all things. Nobody ever just plugged the wire back in. Anyway my point is shops will take you for anything if you let them. it was a really interesting story none the less (in an old car and driver magazine)
02-24-2005, 09:32 PM
#13
My rebuilt VTC's are still running fine. After the VTC's are out of the car it only takes 5 mins. each to rebuild them (actually like 1-2 min 
), so the nissan shops are probably charing their minimum rip off rate. A while back I bought new solenoids for them (just for the heck of it) since a few other max owners reported them failing. One other thing I did was solder the terminals on the VTC's, since the contacts are garbage and like to corrode. I drilled an eye hole in the tab and fed a fresh piece of stranded wire through, works perfect. A lot of terminals on the max seem to corrode, as well as the length of wire itself. I also soldered the temp sensor terminals, they corrode very regularly and I decided enough is enough. Next up will be the MAFS.
), so the nissan shops are probably charing their minimum rip off rate. A while back I bought new solenoids for them (just for the heck of it) since a few other max owners reported them failing. One other thing I did was solder the terminals on the VTC's, since the contacts are garbage and like to corrode. I drilled an eye hole in the tab and fed a fresh piece of stranded wire through, works perfect. A lot of terminals on the max seem to corrode, as well as the length of wire itself. I also soldered the temp sensor terminals, they corrode very regularly and I decided enough is enough. Next up will be the MAFS.
02-24-2005, 11:03 PM
#14
IMHO if you oil gallies are all varnished and plugged, the rebuild will starve for oil and fail. IMHO even new ones will fail if you starve them of the oil that's supposed to keep them in x position.
Most if not all dealers don't perform the oil galley clean as per the TSB. One, it's a pain and two, you have to remove the heads to do it 100% right.
The Nissan Tech that "fixed" mine, made mine fail in 12k. I put new ones in and it lasted 50k before I torched the engine. hehe. So IMHO most Nissan Techs can kiss my little ****.
Most if not all dealers don't perform the oil galley clean as per the TSB. One, it's a pain and two, you have to remove the heads to do it 100% right.
The Nissan Tech that "fixed" mine, made mine fail in 12k. I put new ones in and it lasted 50k before I torched the engine. hehe. So IMHO most Nissan Techs can kiss my little ****.
02-24-2005, 11:05 PM
#15
Eric. While doing my numerous engine swaps, I took the time to clean the connectors and use dielectric grease on each connector. When I had to do another engine swap later, each connection was very clean and void of the grean nasty crap. Was nice and clean.
Originally Posted by eric93SE
My rebuilt VTC's are still running fine. After the VTC's are out of the car it only takes 5 mins. each to rebuild them (actually like 1-2 min ), so the nissan shops are probably charing their minimum rip off rate. A while back I bought new solenoids for them (just for the heck of it) since a few other max owners reported them failing. One other thing I did was solder the terminals on the VTC's, since the contacts are garbage and like to corrode. I drilled an eye hole in the tab and fed a fresh piece of stranded wire through, works perfect. A lot of terminals on the max seem to corrode, as well as the length of wire itself. I also soldered the temp sensor terminals, they corrode very regularly and I decided enough is enough. Next up will be the MAFS.
), so the nissan shops are probably charing their minimum rip off rate. A while back I bought new solenoids for them (just for the heck of it) since a few other max owners reported them failing. One other thing I did was solder the terminals on the VTC's, since the contacts are garbage and like to corrode. I drilled an eye hole in the tab and fed a fresh piece of stranded wire through, works perfect. A lot of terminals on the max seem to corrode, as well as the length of wire itself. I also soldered the temp sensor terminals, they corrode very regularly and I decided enough is enough. Next up will be the MAFS.
02-25-2005, 06:11 AM
#16
Originally Posted by tripleGmax
Ok off topic(sorta related story) I read a story on a guy who drove around almost the entire US with 1 pulled spark plug wire making his car buck and bog down. Now the car had 15000 miles on it and was perfectly fine other than that. And when he rolled into a shop, he got people saying he needed a tune-up to needing a new distrib. cap to needing new air filter to needing new cat. to needing new struts of all things. Nobody ever just plugged the wire back in. Anyway my point is shops will take you for anything if you let them. it was a really interesting story none the less (in an old car and driver magazine)
they usually miss or gloss over the guy who just reconnected the wire and told em to leave, he doesn't make for good news.
the other thing is most "mechanics" these days aren't Mechanics, they're parts changers. they don't know how to diagnose a car, just throw parts at it.
02-25-2005, 06:23 AM
#17
true, i wasnt saying all mechanics will take you. because the guys that work on my car are great. They do great work, stamp guaruntees on it and Im happy. I know that not everybody is out trying to just take your money when it comes to cars. Im sure i could trust my car with you and your mechanics as well.
oh and there were stories that people just plugged the wire back in asking how it got undone and stuff, but those same people even suggested getting all new plugs and wires. Ive always had good people working on my cars (they are everywhere, just gotta do some research)
oh and there were stories that people just plugged the wire back in asking how it got undone and stuff, but those same people even suggested getting all new plugs and wires. Ive always had good people working on my cars (they are everywhere, just gotta do some research)
02-25-2005, 06:26 AM
#18
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2004
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bUY VGE...
Noo. I Want to know if anybody has track tested VTC vs. VTC grounded =off. Is there any real difference?
If no, why just gnd and forget the whole issue?
Take care of stealer $hips - trust only pirate$: The hazard sw can be left in half position. That creates a nono for turn signals. ---> A magazine article here documented how volvo maindealership charged the customer for eight hours work... pressing that button. Troubleshooting it was called!
Eight hours at Volvo here means month salary - if the taxman is shot.
Noo. I Want to know if anybody has track tested VTC vs. VTC grounded =off. Is there any real difference?
If no, why just gnd and forget the whole issue?
Take care of stealer $hips - trust only pirate$: The hazard sw can be left in half position. That creates a nono for turn signals. ---> A magazine article here documented how volvo maindealership charged the customer for eight hours work... pressing that button. Troubleshooting it was called!
Eight hours at Volvo here means month salary - if the taxman is shot.
02-25-2005, 07:27 AM
#19
Originally Posted by tripleGmax
well i guess its just impossible to trust a dealer. Mrgone was told you cant rebuild them and Mizeree was told there was a special tool involved that made it fail.
Wiking, yes there is a performance difference.
02-25-2005, 10:57 AM
#20
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Originally Posted by MrGone
Well there is technically a special VTC rebuild tool set, but its nothing too special.
Wiking, yes there is a performance difference.
Wiking, yes there is a performance difference.
2 Hp
:[ 1. The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 10 characters. :]
02-25-2005, 03:12 PM
#24
Moves the torque curve around also. So more than just those small mods.
Originally Posted by Wiking
so thats basically nothing. some even say that by plug indexing u may get that 5%. better filter than stock gives more...
02-25-2005, 05:31 PM
#25
Originally Posted by Jeff92se
IMHO if you oil gallies are all varnished and plugged, the rebuild will starve for oil and fail. IMHO even new ones will fail if you starve them of the oil that's supposed to keep them in x position.
Most if not all dealers don't perform the oil galley clean as per the TSB. One, it's a pain and two, you have to remove the heads to do it 100% right.
The Nissan Tech that "fixed" mine, made mine fail in 12k. I put new ones in and it lasted 50k before I torched the engine. hehe. So IMHO most Nissan Techs can kiss my little ****.
Most if not all dealers don't perform the oil galley clean as per the TSB. One, it's a pain and two, you have to remove the heads to do it 100% right.
The Nissan Tech that "fixed" mine, made mine fail in 12k. I put new ones in and it lasted 50k before I torched the engine. hehe. So IMHO most Nissan Techs can kiss my little ****.
I know I didn't go to the trouble of cleaning the oil gallies, but so far so good. I've been using synthetic for the last 80k miles, and every few oil changes I run a motor flush. So Jeff, how bad were your oil gallies? were you able to get pipe cleaning tools through the gallies and retrieve anything. If I remember correctly the TSB talks about drilling out one of the jets to open the flow a little more, or was that extracting the jet.
02-25-2005, 05:32 PM
#26
Originally Posted by Wiking
so thats basically nothing. some even say that by plug indexing u may get that 5%. better filter than stock gives more...
we aren't talking very best scenario, over-rated flywheel HP.
02-25-2005, 05:34 PM
#27
Originally Posted by eric93SE
If I remember correctly the TSB talks about drilling out one of the jets to open the flow a little more, or was that extracting the jet.
02-26-2005, 08:04 AM
#28
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Originally Posted by Wiking
so thats basically nothing. some even say that by plug indexing u may get that 5%. better filter than stock gives more...
02-26-2005, 08:06 AM
#29
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Originally Posted by eric93SE
I know I didn't go to the trouble of cleaning the oil gallies, but so far so good. I've been using synthetic for the last 80k miles, and every few oil changes I run a motor flush. So Jeff, how bad were your oil gallies? were you able to get pipe cleaning tools through the gallies and retrieve anything. If I remember correctly the TSB talks about drilling out one of the jets to open the flow a little more, or was that extracting the jet.
02-26-2005, 08:07 AM
#30
Originally Posted by MrGone
The TSB I got from Matt didn't say anything other than clean the oil gallies. Donald asked me for pics, he wanted to do that though.
02-26-2005, 09:35 PM
#33
I actually ran a thin wire down the top of the head and up the oil jet where the feed to the tensioner. And prayed it didn't break off. But if you valvetrain is clean and not varnished, then it's good to guess your gallies are pretty clean also. And as Matt has said, drilling the jet was to remove and replace.
Originally Posted by eric93SE
I know I didn't go to the trouble of cleaning the oil gallies, but so far so good. I've been using synthetic for the last 80k miles, and every few oil changes I run a motor flush. So Jeff, how bad were your oil gallies? were you able to get pipe cleaning tools through the gallies and retrieve anything. If I remember correctly the TSB talks about drilling out one of the jets to open the flow a little more, or was that extracting the jet.
02-27-2005, 08:51 PM
#34
My VTCs were ticking again after just 1K miles. And I know I rebuilt them correctly. In fact, they are as loud as the were before, if not a little louder! There is no special tool that is required to do this job. It would be nice to have a little steel ball and a press, but as Mike said, a ball hammer works great! And yes, if you do the job incorrectly, it will tick again. It says that all in the TSB, which I followed precisely. But I didn't remove the heads to clean the oil gallies. I just did a rebuild and it was quiet until 1K miles later. 
My next major project (after my built auto tranny and turbo job) will be to remove the heads, clean the oil gallies, install new VTC sprockets, and do some headwork. But I will just have to put up with the ticking noise for now. Everytime I hear it tick, I get SO freakin mad! I put all that time and work into it and it still ticks. Oh well, I knew I was taking a chance.
02-28-2005, 11:34 AM
#35
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So from what I read here is the conclusion that unless you remove the heads and clean the oil gallies your 95% assured that your VTC's will fail again within 20,000k's? I'm all for rebuilding the VTC's but not if I need to dismanlte the engine for the fix to stick.
02-28-2005, 11:37 AM
#36
I've always wondered if you shot some pressurized air down the cam galley/vtc feeds, would it clear out junk. It might be the case where the oil jet just gets varnished up and gets smaller and smaller and..................to where it just doesn't feed much oil up to the vtc. I would think you also would starve the #1 cam lobe too but......
02-28-2005, 11:50 AM
#37
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I also thought about maybe sticking some sort of wire brich in the gallie to clean it but the problem with that is that although it will clean out the crap off the sides of the gallie's in places where there is no build up it might scratch the sides. Also another problem is when you do this where in the heck is all of the "crap" going to end up? I wouldn't want to do that and then that crap hitting my filer/oil pump and jamming it up. Any thoughts on this idea?
02-28-2005, 05:31 PM
#39
02-28-2005, 06:47 PM
#40
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Dam it that just makes me want to fix them all the more! 
I hope that after spending all this time/money that I don't end up waisting it and they blow again or even worse my little fix-it idea for the gallies don't blow my engine!
Jeff - my reasoning against this idea sort of comes from the same thought that gave me the idea. I remember reading about someone's heart arteries being clogged and they fixed it by performing an "Angioplasty". (they stick a baloon in there inflate it and it loosens what's blocking the artery and in this case my wire brush would be my baloon). The only drawback is that when they loosen whats blocking the artery it can sometimes get stuck in smaller arteries causing a blockage (stroke). I'm sure that changing the oil and filter will help that not from happening but I just don't want any of that hard crap clogging another oil channel and blowing the engine.
I hope that after spending all this time/money that I don't end up waisting it and they blow again or even worse my little fix-it idea for the gallies don't blow my engine! Jeff - my reasoning against this idea sort of comes from the same thought that gave me the idea. I remember reading about someone's heart arteries being clogged and they fixed it by performing an "Angioplasty". (they stick a baloon in there inflate it and it loosens what's blocking the artery and in this case my wire brush would be my baloon). The only drawback is that when they loosen whats blocking the artery it can sometimes get stuck in smaller arteries causing a blockage (stroke). I'm sure that changing the oil and filter will help that not from happening but I just don't want any of that hard crap clogging another oil channel and blowing the engine.