Hey guys,

Hoping you might be able to set me straight on something here. Ever since I bought my Max 2 yrs ago i found it to start easier then any other car i've come across. When cold (not used before on that given day) it would actually require less then a 2/10ths of a second of initiating the starter motor for it to kick alive and sit at 1,400rpms (eventually dipping down to 800 once its warm) ... but yeah, basically an instant start... when warm / hot never started quite as quickly, but still within around 0.5 seconds of holding the key.

Problem :-

Lately the time taken to start is lengthening, and just yesterday it behaved terribly.. I hadnt started it in 4 / 5 days which is often as long as i'll leave it before it gets a run (i barely use it) .. but walked up to it, turned car over.. after about 2 seconds? a bit of life showed but their was horrific vibration felt through the car and it couldnt even hold 500rpms then stalled, tried to start again.. held for something like 5 seconds.. nothing, just starter motor working (and quite fast mind you, so i knew battery is good) .. so i let sit for 10 seconds... turn off key, back to on position (hearing the hiss / fuel pump kick in so i knew that was ok) .. tried to start again.. rumbled to life barely for a bit (extremely rough) then a cloud of smoke (or could've been dirty air?!) billowed out from the crack in the hood on the side where the airbox is... scared the **** out of me.... but hey i tried to start after that and it came to life.. barely held 600ish rpms at first then started to level out and shift up to the usual warmup rpm of 1,300ish with a smooth note and no more vibration.. taking about 5 to 7 seconds for this to occur.

Fuel / air block? tank was quite low on fuel.. car been sitting in hot sun for few days... but i used to leave it under those conditions in the past and she'd always start straight away....

Tonight? (first time used today) went to car.. turned key over hoping it would be back to its old usual self (split second start) but nope, had to let starter motor try to kick it over for a good... oooh, 3 to 4 seconds before the engine came to life, when it did it ran a bit rough for half a second then levelled out and was perfect... once i got to the fuel station and filled the tank to the brim, when i started it again it started fairly easily though still not quite as quick as it used to when warm...

Spark plugs were changed in february, i've done all of 3,500kms between then and now (whats that in miles? bugger all anyway)

Once shes up and running shes smooth as pie, plenty of power, very smooth flat idle when sitting in drive at the lights with the brake on, no vibration or fluctuating tacho needle,... so whats with the ****ty starts lately?? ARRRGH!!

Your expertise is much appreciated as always folks!

 

maybe a vacuum hose leak?

 

I was going to call distributor, but I think the Ti has the VE engine.

 

'tis an australian car, we only ever got the VG engine here.

But err, vaccum hose leak / distributor.... if either of these were the problem wouldnt the car show some symptoms of something wrong once you're up and going as well? As mentioned before the car is fine once you're started and on your way... no hesitation anywhere in the power curve or rough idle etc.. its all hunky dorey.

 

Mine would have trouble starting in the cold/wet conditions, sometimes it wouldnt start at all. Once up, it would run fine all day long, even after shutting off for 1 hour or so and coming back it would start up fine.

Plus they (distributor) go bad over time, 160k miles for me or 257,495.04 kilometers according to google.

 

I'd check out the coolant head temperature sensor. and the idle air control valve. chances are it is one or the other

 

I haven't worked on a VG, but on my VE, the IACV was really dirty and caused some rough idle and also surging idle.

TB might be dirty, too.

Did you check to see if the ECU gives up any codes?

 

nah didnt check ecu... i've never attempted/done that before.. is it hard? and err.. i dont suppose there's a step by step guide lying around somewhere with pics on how to check ecu? I know where ecu is (side of the footwell) .. had a screw adjustment thingy with a sticker above it saying "engine idle speed" or something along those lines, is that to deter the 'wrong' people from fiddling with it? or does it also work as an engine idle speed adjustment screw? Maybe its an australian only thing... a little hesitant to fiddle with something i know practically nothing about unless theres an easy guide.

As for IACV / TB (whatever they are? lol) being dirty, and earlier postings re. coolant head temp sensor etc... if this was the case surely the car would have problems during normal running operation? as mentioned a few times already, problem is only when starting car, once started she sorts herself out within 5 seconds and is perfect in every way.. smooth idle, smooth power etc.

 

^^Logic will only take you so far when it comes to troubleshooting Maximas.

Sometimes you just have to have experience. I would look into internetautomart's suggestions.

 

Think thats bad? Mine use to take half a second, now it takes a minutes if not 3.lol. im getting the starter fixed today.

 

look through the stickies -- there is a step by step on the ECU.

It doesn't always give any codes, though.

 

I had a similar problem. As she aged I needed to keep the fuel above 1/4 tank then I lost the pump not too long after. If I let the fuel get to an 1/8 or less it would take some coaxing to get started.

 

I agree with fuel pump on the way out. My max had long crank time when it would sit for a few hours. I finally hooked fuel pressure gauge up and noticed fuel pressure dropping. After a minute it would be at zero psi. I pinched off return hose still had drop so I pinched off inlet hose and had no pressure drop. I replaced pump and has been starting good.

 

When it has a hard time starting, do you always see smoke? I had a similar experience and it turned out to be a leaky injector (O-ring actually). After sitting for a while and cooling off, I pulled the plugs and one was wet with fuel. After fuel burned off the car ran fine.

 

Interesting responses guys, really appreciate all this feedback.. wonderful helpful community you are <thumbs Up>

Today i have made a fresh discovery however... sorry for the essay sized posting but i have a habit of being extremely thorough to give you the best idea of what might be happening... I'll copy and paste a post i made earlier today to the nissanaus forums rather then re-typing it all out....

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Hey guys,

Hoping some of you might have some ideas on what this might be.... I drive a 94 Nissan Maxima Ti (runs the V6 VG30E engine), always been well maintained and never let me down.. until the last week or so that is

Used to always start in a split second, particularly when cold but over the past week or two the time taken to start has increased (a good 2/3 seconds of holding the key for the engine to finally respond and start), sometimes when it started i'd feel terrible vibration through steering wheel and seat.. this for 4 to 8 seconds, then it would smoothen out and everything from there on was hunky dorey for the rest of the day..... last night was first time i used car all day, had to hold key for nearly 10 whole seconds for it to finally kick over, barely held 500rpms (should be 1,300 when warming up) and was stuttering.. then stalled out altogether, tried again and it came to life, rumbling/vibration felt for 5ish seconds then smoothened out as per the other times over the past week or so...

Come today? started very quickly, like it used to but guess what? now the rumbling / vibration is permanently felt... its hard to say for sure but my guess is that its misfiring / not running on all 6 cylinders... but based on all of the above maybe its something else? i removed each of the spark plug leads from the plugs and re-attached, and also just wriggled the connections from the distributor... then started car again, no different.. engine's vibrating like a *****.. vibration naturally gets worse when you tap accelerator a bit.. i'm not game to drive it like this, could do more harm then good?

Suggestions? I hope i dont have to get it towed im not with the RACV (yet)

Thanks peeps.

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Following that horrific experience this morning... further developments occured only a couple hrs ago... read next posting i made below for the full scoop

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well well guys, had racv drop by and check it out.. nailed it down to 1 of 3 things i think.

what we discovered is that if you leave it running long enough (2 mins+) the computer slowly drops the idle down to the usual 800rpms.. once the computer drops it to its fully warmed up idle speed (800rpm), the misfiring / rumbling stops and you can step on the gas in neutral and its as smooooooooth as pie. So he says its MOST likely the "idle air control valve" which sits on top of the engine.. had a screwdriver head screw thingy on top of it which adjusts idle speed when you turn it but we didnt touch that.. but he figures its most likely stuck or not doing its job properly in some form... it plays a role with the motor when the motor is dead cold but apparently isnt used by the motor once the engine is warmed up, that make sense?

Other thing he said it might be is a temperature sensor of some form (think he said "coolant head temperature sensor") causing it to misfire and rumble around in its mounts when cold, would that make sense?

if its not that thats the problem he thinks it could be the "coil pack" which runs seperately off the main distributor... thinks that could be dead/dying..

But explain this, if the misfiring / rumbling of the motor is occuring only when cold / slowly warming up then how could it be a dead lead / distributor / sparkplug etc. ? if it was any of those things, the problem would still be apparent once engine is warmed up fully as well wouldnt it?

everything pointing to idle air control valve? Whatcha's think? Do the above described symptoms link up to it?

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Interesting eh? someone here mentioned idle air control valve and one or two more of you backed him up... not to say it will fix it, we havent looked at it yet but a massive thumbs up to yas if it does....

So yeah, looking like its always running on 6 cylinders after all, but something else is making it rumble around in its mounts/run as rough as bags whilst warming up.. must admit though, even when fully warm. theres now still a tad more vibration felt through drivers seat / steering wheel then there was before all this started happeng.. though that could be my mind playing tricks on me i guess cos im paying more attention to it :S


With all of the aforementioned info above, you guys still strongly feel its the idle air control valve... how easy it it to get in there and clean it?? dont suppose there's a guide for that anywhere by any chance? god knows when it was last cleaned / replaced.


Sorry you had to spend 20 mins reading that (for those of you that surprisingly didnt skim most of it :P) ... but hopefully it puts a pretty picture in your head as to whats going on here.


Cheers guys.

 

got some good news.. had a mate who felt confident pull apart one side of the idle air control valve assembly and we were shocked to find massive black sooty buildup (carbon deposits?) sitting in there (mostly on this odd black rubber dome thingy, what is that??) it was CAKED in the stuff everywhere... cleaned it all out, put it back together, car hadnt been started in oooh, 3 or so hrs before we kicked it over again... and she started as smooooth as pie, no more rumbling / vibration....

I guess the real test will be tomorrow morning when its really cold... but all the signs are looking good - Will report back with tomorrow morning's starting result.

 

YAY, appears the IACV being gunked up was what was causing the cold start rough idle/vibration through the cabin.... started car up today and she started up even before 1 full crank rotation (split second).. and was running very flat and smooth.

Question though, might be my mind playing tricks on me as im focusing more on it since this dilemna, but do you guys get a bit of vibration felt through your steering wheel when stationary/in park with the engine running? I get just a little kick of vibration a couple times every second but its otherwise fine. When in motion/driving along, this bit of vibration isnt felt at all... sound normal?

 

And the credit goes to........Brian {sound of clapping}


Correct me if I'm wrong, but that big of vibration is prolly your injectors, skipping a beat so to speak, they tend to go out on our cars due to age.
I get that on my 89.

 

a little kick, is quite possibly a misfire as stated above.
Do you know how to check for a misfire?
Easy way is with the car running to pull the plug wire off the spark plug one at a time and see if any of them makes it run worse.
it SHOULD run worse each time you unplug a wire.
If it doesn't on one of the cylinders then that cylinder is your problem.

 

ah right, it doesnt hurt the engine to unplug leads from the sparkies whilst motor's running i take it? as long as you only drop one cylinder at a time and not two as you've described?

I dont think its a spark / cylinder issue because i can tell just by listening to it that its running on all 6 cylinders very smoothly, not to mention the smoothness through the rev range under load when driving the car.. no hesitation or anything whatsoever.

This odd bit of vibration im feeling is very very slight, it could just be normal?! In drive stationary with brake on its actually gone altogether. Feels very smooth and solid....

I will mention however that with my last tank of fuel put into the car (around 3 weeks ago) I decided for the first time ever to put a bottle of fuel injector cleaner into the tank as well... kinda ironic that following that, all these problems surface, surely it wouldnt have done more harm than good? Though i've SINCE heard the type of injectors used on the VG30E dont like injector cleaner... /has a quick look for the link.

ah yes, here it is ----> http://maxima.theowensfamily.com/tsb/NTB94-002.pdf

Theres a place up the road that do whats called "ultrasonic" cleaning of injectors.. whatever the hell that means... 'IF' my injectors even need cleaning, would that be a wise move? or once injectors get dirty/clogged in these VG30E engines cant they be cleaned / rejuvinated, meaning you have to pay out for a whole new rail of injectors?

 

^^^No harm should come from that test.

You prolly don't notice it when in drive with the brake on cause its under a bit of a load. I have a manual and I notice it anytime I'm stopped.
They just get old from what I can tell. I say run a couple tanks of V-power or techron and just deal.

My car has been like this for as long as i have had it, 6 years, so i dont think it will harm anything.

 

If you use the fuel system cleaner on a regular basis, it's probably O.K. One problem with using Gumout or Techron is if you have never used cleaner, and then put some in, you may make your problems worse. After adding it, all the dirt and crud that has built up in the fuel system for the last 100k or so will be loosened in one big dollop and go downstream wherer it will do bad stuff. If you've never cleaned your fuel system, adding cleaner now may make problems worse.

 

ah yeah that makes sense.... so should i go get all of my injectors "ultrasonically" cleaned at some stage? or would i most likely need a whole new rail of injectors? i'm a fussy bastard so if i know any of them arnt working faultlessly i'll be wanting to do something about it....

Oh thats right, the other question i've been meaning to ask yas... the MAF on the VG30E, can it be cleaned? If so, i dont suppose there's a guide floating around anywhere on how to go about cleaning it is there? It hasnt had attention for a loooooooooooooooong time i'm sure of that.

 

If money is not a big deal. Just buy a set of 6 off of http://www.internetautomart.com/catalog/ and have someone install them. The originals are old and even if they are rebuilt, have no guarantee they will be better.

As for cleaning the MAF, just go to the parts store and get some electrical cleaner or they may even sell a product specifically for MAF cleaning.

http://www.crcindustries.com/files/M...heet%20Web.pdf

 

Thanks a bunch for all your help. I actually happen to have a can of CRC MAF cleaner here so im half way there already, but i dont know for the life of me how to get to the sensor itself to spray this stuff over it... Only that its the little raised square object sitting a bit further up the intake pipe from the air filter box.

 

god damnit, the cold start issue is BACK!!!!!! ferf00kz sake

Came back to car today, no colder then yesterday when i started her up stone cold for the first time since we cleaned the gunk (stacks of carbon buildup) off the internals of the air idle control valve (the chrome spinning thing with the little rubber dome on the end.. i hope thats all you need to clean? i didnt miss anything there? we only took apart the outside section of it which lead us to this area filled with carbon) but yeah started on a dime yesterday after having cleaned it...

But err, must've been just happy to play ball then, but the real problem seems to remain because today it took a good 5 seconds of starter motor action before she fired up... (used to start before even 1 full crank rotation when cold, im talking a 10th of a sec)

On the upside, the vibration through the cabin / rough cold idle didnt happen so thats a plus.. but maybe i was just lucky today. or the IACV having been cleaned out as per above has helped this? i still fear for the worst, worrying i'll go to it one day again soon and the rumbling / ****ty cold idle misfire will be back to haunt me again.

The remainder of the day, all warm starts were instant... no dramas whatsoever... perhaps theres more gunk sitting elsewhere from this bottle of fuel injector cleaner i emptied in with the previous tank of fuel (probably the first time the cars had it chucked in the fuel system for MANY yrs (if ever before) so all the gunk from over the yrs sitting in the lines has blasted down into the engine causing this cold start issue... i'll clean the MAF tomorrow but i doubt the MAF would've been effected by it, nor fix the cold start problem.

Any other suggestions? car is PERFECT all day long once you get around the cold-start issue first up in the day


Edit: Just an idea, could it be spark plugs? the current plugs are only 2,800kms old but maybe they've been carboned up by the results of this fuel injector **** going through the system and messing it up with crud?! I dare say with the IACV having previously been so gunked up with black sooty crap, then the plugs must've copped a fair bit of it too??!, not to mention my fuel injectors (touched on earlier in the thread) .. but sparkies play a huge role for quick cold-starts, no??

 

After you cleaned all of the stuff out of the fuel system, did you change the fuel filter? If there was a lot of gunk, perhaps change it twice?

 

didnt think to change fuel filter, but if the fuel filter was gunked up as a result of this, wouldnt it cause problems when the car is warm as well?

as described in detail above, the car only plays up when trying to start it stone cold first up in the day... i can leave it for up to 4 or 5 hrs after that and its quick to start.. but overnight / walking up to it the next day? means long crank time (up to 5 seconds of starter motor usage) before she fires up.....

could it STILL be fuel filter even though car starts quickly / drives perfectly smooth for remainder of day?

 

I woulnt really worry about it. Have you sea foamed your car? That seems the best general manitence. I ususally use 1/2 in the brake booster vac line and the rest in a 1/4 tank of gas and keep the rpms up. That will clean out alot of stuff that gets built up.

~Alex