startup procedure contradiction in some books; and the acetone debate
04-18-2007, 08:49 PM
#1
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startup procedure contradiction in some books; and the acetone debate
It will say "NEVER depress the accelerator while starting the engine" then a paragraph later it will say "If the engine is hard to start in extremely hot or cold weather, or in the summer when restarting the engine within 30 minutes of stopping it, keep the accelerator pedal fully depressed while starting"
what's up with that? is the summer trick to avoid dumping tons of gas in during closed-throttle starts or what? sounds like they need to edit for clarity, to me.
and on a sidenote, the people that talk aobut acetone being bad for your fillerneck and stuff, never seem to have actually tested the effects of dilluted acetone. like, in a controlled environment. all you gotta do is mix 3floz of acetone into 2 gallons of gas in a plastic tank and check it every day for a month and see if that dillution factor (in that case, 1% i believe) will damage plastics. people love to talk. they don't love to put their money where their mouth is. so I plan to do just that. I'm going to set up a controlled 5-times-suggested-gastank-concentration in a plastic container. because we all know acetone HATES plastic. so if a 1% concentration does nothing to a plastic container after a whole month sitting at 5x suggested concentration, then it can be concluded that acetone won't screw up your filler neck or anything else if dilluted prior to addition to your gas tank.
what's up with that? is the summer trick to avoid dumping tons of gas in during closed-throttle starts or what? sounds like they need to edit for clarity, to me.
and on a sidenote, the people that talk aobut acetone being bad for your fillerneck and stuff, never seem to have actually tested the effects of dilluted acetone. like, in a controlled environment. all you gotta do is mix 3floz of acetone into 2 gallons of gas in a plastic tank and check it every day for a month and see if that dillution factor (in that case, 1% i believe) will damage plastics. people love to talk. they don't love to put their money where their mouth is. so I plan to do just that. I'm going to set up a controlled 5-times-suggested-gastank-concentration in a plastic container. because we all know acetone HATES plastic. so if a 1% concentration does nothing to a plastic container after a whole month sitting at 5x suggested concentration, then it can be concluded that acetone won't screw up your filler neck or anything else if dilluted prior to addition to your gas tank.
04-18-2007, 09:27 PM
#2
I suppose. How do you ensure that the plastic you're using is relevant to what you are concerned about it damaging as part of your fuel tank/system? Not all plastics are made the same. That still may not explain already worn or damaged material on your car that the acetone would promote damage. Controlled tests sometimes fail in the real world. Also, how are you going to define and measure wear/damage to the jug used? Apologies, not trying to be difficult, just not sure you're going to prove anything.
04-18-2007, 09:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Chris Gregg
I suppose. How do you ensure that the plastic you're using is relevant to what you are concerned about it damaging as part of your fuel tank/system? Not all plastics are made the same. That still may not explain already worn or damaged material on your car that the acetone would promote damage. Controlled tests sometimes fail in the real world. Also, how are you going to define and measure wear/damage to the jug used? Apologies, not trying to be difficult, just not sure you're going to prove anything.
all plastics are not created equal... so i figure a full maxima fuel system should be a better test.
04-18-2007, 09:48 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt93SE
Why do you want to put acetone in your tank? that's just stoopid.
04-19-2007, 07:20 AM
#7
Originally Posted by capedcadaver
It will say "NEVER depress the accelerator while starting the engine" then a paragraph later it will say "If the engine is hard to start in extremely hot or cold weather, or in the summer when restarting the engine within 30 minutes of stopping it, keep the accelerator pedal fully depressed while starting"
if the car is hard to start or you have tried to start it several times and it didn't start, you hold down the gas ALL the way. That sets the computer into a mode that shuts off the fuel flow to clear out what may be a flooded engine condition . (fact)
04-19-2007, 09:54 AM
#8
OK I didnt read all of the posts because I am in a hurry but here is why you mash it to the floor...I found this out when working on a 200SX that wouldnt start and I assume its the same for the Maxima.
When you push the accelerator to the floor while cranking it tells the ECU to stops the flow of gas (like in a flooded situation) which allows you to crank a flooded car.
It worked on that 95 200SX after not getting it to crank after a while.
oh I see Brian already covered it.
When you push the accelerator to the floor while cranking it tells the ECU to stops the flow of gas (like in a flooded situation) which allows you to crank a flooded car.
It worked on that 95 200SX after not getting it to crank after a while.
oh I see Brian already covered it.
04-19-2007, 11:59 AM
#9
I started my maxima with the pedal depressed a bit while i had to drive with failing coils. It helped to prevent an instantanious stall, but then on stop lights and all stops in general I would have to put into neutral and keep the RPMs up a bit.
04-19-2007, 12:08 PM
#10
Regarding acetone, there are a few thermodynamic calculations which can be done to determine the vapor pressure with and without its presence. However I don’t think these would be reliable because inside the engine conditions are far from static: there are a lot of temperature/pressure/volume/mixture transitions and they happen quickly so conditions are not ideal.
One of the biggest areas of motor R&D is to predict and control the turbulence before, during, and after combustion. If acetone really did offer the benefits claimed, then it would have been evaluated from such a standpoint and subsequently used as a fuel additive at distribution. Since this is not the case, then like Matt93SE said, don’t waste your time.
One of the biggest areas of motor R&D is to predict and control the turbulence before, during, and after combustion. If acetone really did offer the benefits claimed, then it would have been evaluated from such a standpoint and subsequently used as a fuel additive at distribution. Since this is not the case, then like Matt93SE said, don’t waste your time.
04-19-2007, 03:17 PM
#11
Originally Posted by mikekantor
Regarding acetone, there are a few thermodynamic calculations which can be done to determine the vapor pressure with and without its presence. However I don’t think these would be reliable because inside the engine conditions are far from static: there are a lot of temperature/pressure/volume/mixture transitions and they happen quickly so conditions are not ideal.
One of the biggest areas of motor R&D is to predict and control the turbulence before, during, and after combustion. If acetone really did offer the benefits claimed, then it would have been evaluated from such a standpoint and subsequently used as a fuel additive at distribution. Since this is not the case, then like Matt93SE said, don’t waste your time.
One of the biggest areas of motor R&D is to predict and control the turbulence before, during, and after combustion. If acetone really did offer the benefits claimed, then it would have been evaluated from such a standpoint and subsequently used as a fuel additive at distribution. Since this is not the case, then like Matt93SE said, don’t waste your time.
mixed in solution, it *might* increase the vaporization of fuel to some extent, but I have a feeling you're not going to do any good in the long run. Acetone is an extremely "dry" solvent, just like ethyl alcohol. We used to use it in chem lab to clean glassware because it removes EVERYTHING from anything. in plain english, it will cause the fuel (with acetone mix) to wash the oil off the cylinder walls, causing increased piston and cylinder wear, destroying your engine quicker.
(That's why guys that run toluene as an octane booster will dump a small amount of ATF into the tank as well to make up for it.)
As well, read this link.. http://www.foxvalleykart.com/fuel4.html
I can't find any specific numbers on how much energy is in acetone compared to gasoline, but according to the above arcitle, there's no gains to be had from it.
thus, the only thing you can do putting acetone in your car is to hurt it........
04-19-2007, 07:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Matt93SE
Part of the problem with acetone in distribution is its volatility. the stuff will evaporate extremely quickly.
mixed in solution, it *might* increase the vaporization of fuel to some extent, but I have a feeling you're not going to do any good in the long run. Acetone is an extremely "dry" solvent, just like ethyl alcohol. We used to use it in chem lab to clean glassware because it removes EVERYTHING from anything. in plain english, it will cause the fuel (with acetone mix) to wash the oil off the cylinder walls, causing increased piston and cylinder wear, destroying your engine quicker.
(That's why guys that run toluene as an octane booster will dump a small amount of ATF into the tank as well to make up for it.)
As well, read this link.. http://www.foxvalleykart.com/fuel4.html
I can't find any specific numbers on how much energy is in acetone compared to gasoline, but according to the above arcitle, there's no gains to be had from it.
thus, the only thing you can do putting acetone in your car is to hurt it........
mixed in solution, it *might* increase the vaporization of fuel to some extent, but I have a feeling you're not going to do any good in the long run. Acetone is an extremely "dry" solvent, just like ethyl alcohol. We used to use it in chem lab to clean glassware because it removes EVERYTHING from anything. in plain english, it will cause the fuel (with acetone mix) to wash the oil off the cylinder walls, causing increased piston and cylinder wear, destroying your engine quicker.
(That's why guys that run toluene as an octane booster will dump a small amount of ATF into the tank as well to make up for it.)
As well, read this link.. http://www.foxvalleykart.com/fuel4.html
I can't find any specific numbers on how much energy is in acetone compared to gasoline, but according to the above arcitle, there's no gains to be had from it.
thus, the only thing you can do putting acetone in your car is to hurt it........
is the ATF to help relubricate the cylinders after the toluene washed all the oil away?
04-20-2007, 04:28 PM
#13
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Originally Posted by internetautomar
on old carb cars you would pump the gas to help it start. on a FI car it doesn't help because you are adding unnecessary input to the computer so you make it "think" that something else is happening. (theory)
if the car is hard to start or you have tried to start it several times and it didn't start, you hold down the gas ALL the way. That sets the computer into a mode that shuts off the fuel flow to clear out what may be a flooded engine condition . (fact)
if the car is hard to start or you have tried to start it several times and it didn't start, you hold down the gas ALL the way. That sets the computer into a mode that shuts off the fuel flow to clear out what may be a flooded engine condition . (fact)
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