I suck at the brake bleeding
02-17-2008, 05:25 PM
#1
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I suck at the brake bleeding
This weekend, I bled the brakes in the process of a BBK and SS line installation.
Yesterday I had no helper, so I thought I could wing it myself... no go. Got a helper today, bled them all in order per FSM instructions, always kept new fluid in the reservoir above minimum.
The brakes feel like stepping on foam. I drove a bit back and forth in the garage, and it just barely stops when the pedal is all the way down. I must still have air in the system somewhere, but the fluid coming out has been clear with no bubbles, so that doesn’t make much sense.
After some searching here I read that the master cylinder could be the cause. Are they known to go out like that, without any previous symptoms? Approximately how much brake fluid should come out a non-ABS system to consider it completely bled?
Yesterday I had no helper, so I thought I could wing it myself... no go. Got a helper today, bled them all in order per FSM instructions, always kept new fluid in the reservoir above minimum.
The brakes feel like stepping on foam. I drove a bit back and forth in the garage, and it just barely stops when the pedal is all the way down. I must still have air in the system somewhere, but the fluid coming out has been clear with no bubbles, so that doesn’t make much sense.
After some searching here I read that the master cylinder could be the cause. Are they known to go out like that, without any previous symptoms? Approximately how much brake fluid should come out a non-ABS system to consider it completely bled?
02-17-2008, 05:32 PM
#2
Sounds like you need to bleed it more. But also consider that fresh brake fluid will take time to firm up and have some sponge feel.
When I bleed, I pump it out a couple more times when I no longer see bubbles in the oil. Repeat if I even THINK there is some air.
Also, like anytime you change the pads and rotors, the new pads need to burn the resin off and the rotor need to be broke in. There is a good thread somewhere here on breaking in your brakes.
When I bleed, I pump it out a couple more times when I no longer see bubbles in the oil. Repeat if I even THINK there is some air.
Also, like anytime you change the pads and rotors, the new pads need to burn the resin off and the rotor need to be broke in. There is a good thread somewhere here on breaking in your brakes.
02-17-2008, 05:35 PM
#4
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I guess I'll attack it again tomorrow, just wish I hadnt taken it off the stands and put all the wheel back on.
02-17-2008, 05:55 PM
#6
what I have done in the past and been successful is pump on them for a bit then just crack the line let it sit 4 15 20 min if your by yourself and the air will work its way out. Belive it or not it does. Still not as good as someone pumping the brakes then crakcing the line while they have the brake held down.
02-17-2008, 08:46 PM
#7
also make sure that you have no leaks around the hoses. I was installing new calipers (& pads & rotors) on a friend's car and we could not get any pedal firmness. I had to add another copper washer around the banjo bolt before the stupid thing stopped leaking at the hose connection. FINALLY... half a [jumbo] bottle of DOT3 later... we had a firm pedal and were ready to go break the new stoppybits in.
02-17-2008, 10:06 PM
#8
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Master cylinder will not blow like that, after bleed. There are still some blondie bubbles not decided yet which way to go. Typical place for em to 'party' are at the load valves (or ABS assy)
- Buy the bleed bottle, DIY, see link
- hoax em out
- coax em out
- crush em out [blondie bubbles]
- open all wheels simultaneously and let em bleed
- adjust the Load valves open (or load the wheels to get em opened); see pic. If u adjust, memorize how many turns u did - to re adjust afterwards.
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/748507/18
02-18-2008, 05:51 AM
#11
I had a similar problem in that I could not get the brakes to firm up no matter how many times and how well I bled the brakes (with someone). So I went out and bought a bleeder kit (the hand pump version) and tried that and it worked perfectly. I don't know why it didn't work when we did it the FSM way, but that bleeder kit worked great.
02-18-2008, 07:46 AM
#14
it's supposed to be off.
it's off so all the air can get out without running into a vaccum as can be created when the pedal is pushed. and the fluid gets sucked out of the reservoir and the rubber inside gets pulled down and in.
it's off so all the air can get out without running into a vaccum as can be created when the pedal is pushed. and the fluid gets sucked out of the reservoir and the rubber inside gets pulled down and in.
02-18-2008, 07:51 AM
#15
02-18-2008, 08:16 AM
#16
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Thanks guys, I'll do that. I thought it was supposed to be on to prevent moisture from getting in, I guess the amount of time that it will spend off is not that long anyway.
Yes, I instructed the helper and was able to watch the pedal while I worked on the left rear bleeder.
Yes, I instructed the helper and was able to watch the pedal while I worked on the left rear bleeder.
02-18-2008, 07:51 PM
#17
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Well I went at it again tonight. Instead of using a helper, I got a rod from one of my jacks and stuck it between the brake pedal and the seat cushion. That let me make sure things were going right, and took some uncertainty out.
I also emptied the reservoir, since I hadnt done that earlier, and cleaned it out on the inside. After that, I checked for leaks at the lines and re-bled all calipers in order (while the cap was off) until I ran out of new brake fluid. With the pedal depressed I noticed that the discs were now held much more firmly, and I thought the pedal felt better overall, so I assembled everything and tried a short drive... still practically no braking, but maybe a tad improved from last night.
Now I just got another 32oz of brake fluid. Tomorrow I'll drain 8oz from every bleeder, and hopefully that will end this misery.
I also emptied the reservoir, since I hadnt done that earlier, and cleaned it out on the inside. After that, I checked for leaks at the lines and re-bled all calipers in order (while the cap was off) until I ran out of new brake fluid. With the pedal depressed I noticed that the discs were now held much more firmly, and I thought the pedal felt better overall, so I assembled everything and tried a short drive... still practically no braking, but maybe a tad improved from last night.
Now I just got another 32oz of brake fluid. Tomorrow I'll drain 8oz from every bleeder, and hopefully that will end this misery.
02-18-2008, 09:40 PM
#19
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If hope fails, the last issue is to open those two load valves to get free flow.
My '5h -mistery exercise' ended after all four were open, master cylinder not touched, ½hr free flow.
Now your fluid starts to be all new, collect and re-use after filtering.
My '5h -mistery exercise' ended after all four were open, master cylinder not touched, ½hr free flow.
Now your fluid starts to be all new, collect and re-use after filtering.
02-18-2008, 09:47 PM
#20
so like... what if you use a broomstick and when bleeding the pedal falls to the floor and stays there? clutch, btw, not brakes. i pull the pedal with my hand and it springs right back up.
02-19-2008, 03:43 AM
#21
It means you need to bleed it more. There are 3 bleeder valves for the clutch hydrauics remember - the master cylinder, the "junction" in betweeen the master and slave, and the slave. Bleed master, junction, slave in that order and it should be stiff.
02-19-2008, 03:45 AM
#22
Well I went at it again tonight. Instead of using a helper, I got a rod from one of my jacks and stuck it between the brake pedal and the seat cushion. That let me make sure things were going right, and took some uncertainty out.
I also emptied the reservoir, since I hadnt done that earlier, and cleaned it out on the inside. After that, I checked for leaks at the lines and re-bled all calipers in order (while the cap was off) until I ran out of new brake fluid. With the pedal depressed I noticed that the discs were now held much more firmly, and I thought the pedal felt better overall, so I assembled everything and tried a short drive... still practically no braking, but maybe a tad improved from last night.
Now I just got another 32oz of brake fluid. Tomorrow I'll drain 8oz from every bleeder, and hopefully that will end this misery.
I also emptied the reservoir, since I hadnt done that earlier, and cleaned it out on the inside. After that, I checked for leaks at the lines and re-bled all calipers in order (while the cap was off) until I ran out of new brake fluid. With the pedal depressed I noticed that the discs were now held much more firmly, and I thought the pedal felt better overall, so I assembled everything and tried a short drive... still practically no braking, but maybe a tad improved from last night.
Now I just got another 32oz of brake fluid. Tomorrow I'll drain 8oz from every bleeder, and hopefully that will end this misery.
Seriously by a bleeder kit, they're like $20 and it will solve your problems. It is way less hassle and you can do it by your self. It just sucks the brake fluid through the lines so it is fast and easy, WELL worth the $20. I had to bleed my brakes like 5 or 6 times with a helper and my brakes were still spongy until I finally got a bleeder kit and then it worked perfectly.
02-19-2008, 07:04 AM
#23
I know when John had a bleeding issue on his GF's max, he ended up having to power bleed it at a meineke or someplace like that with a machine and it ended up working just fine after that.
02-19-2008, 09:12 AM
#24
orly? i never thought to bleed it at multiple points. so the bleeder valves look just like the one on the clutch, just on the block-and-loop device, and another on the master cylinder? or do you bleed those two in a different manner?
02-19-2008, 10:10 AM
#25
Calipers. Bleeders ARE on top right?
I don't use the 2 person method anymore. I bought a vacuum source tool. ie.. pump. So all I had to do was buy a simple kit to turn my vacuum source tool into a vaccum brake bleeder. You should use a bit of teflon tap on the bleeder screws but other than that, it works great.
I don't use the 2 person method anymore. I bought a vacuum source tool. ie.. pump. So all I had to do was buy a simple kit to turn my vacuum source tool into a vaccum brake bleeder. You should use a bit of teflon tap on the bleeder screws but other than that, it works great.
02-19-2008, 10:50 AM
#26
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Seriously by a bleeder kit, they're like $20 and it will solve your problems. It is way less hassle and you can do it by your self. It just sucks the brake fluid through the lines so it is fast and easy, WELL worth the $20. I had to bleed my brakes like 5 or 6 times with a helper and my brakes were still spongy until I finally got a bleeder kit and then it worked perfectly.
02-19-2008, 01:13 PM
#27
definitely get one. They have hand pump versions and electric versions, choose whatever you like best, i got mine at autozone for $20 (they also have like a $7 version that is complete crap, go for the $20 one with the vacuum dial, or get one somewhere else).
02-19-2008, 01:16 PM
#28
I don't know why you can't just bleed through the slave since that's where the fluid travels to ultimately, but I just know it doesn't work well unless you bleed at all three points in the order explained. Good luck!
02-19-2008, 03:14 PM
#29
Well the one at the junction point (i think you are referring to it as the block-and-loop device) and the slave cylinder are bleeder valves, meaning you unscrew them slighly to be able to suck out the fluid. The master cylinder bleeder point is just where the line is from the master cylinder to the block-and-loop device. You unscrew that line and then suck through the master cylinder while keeping it full, and then screw the line back in and bleed from the junction bleeder screw and then the slave bleeder screw. If you miss one of these three points you can count on sponginess/clutch sticking to the floor.
I don't know why you can't just bleed through the slave since that's where the fluid travels to ultimately, but I just know it doesn't work well unless you bleed at all three points in the order explained. Good luck!
I don't know why you can't just bleed through the slave since that's where the fluid travels to ultimately, but I just know it doesn't work well unless you bleed at all three points in the order explained. Good luck!
02-19-2008, 05:03 PM
#31
02-19-2008, 09:06 PM
#32
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Just wrapped up another long evening with the brakes.
To start, while I was waiting for a ride to get the kit, I opened everything up and let it drip out for a while, with the cap off.
After getting the pump, I used it once, noticed the brakes were still crappy, and then went through again. Still bad. After that I went over again with the FSM method. They seemed good at this point, and I saw no bubbles at any location.
Went for a test drive <10mph, still no brakes. I can get them to grab a bit and stop the car if I pump the pedal fairly rapidly, but thats it. There is no improvement from the past few days.
I've drained more than 80oz of fluid now. My only remaining guess is that the calipers are somehow keeping a pocket of air somewhere inside.
To start, while I was waiting for a ride to get the kit, I opened everything up and let it drip out for a while, with the cap off.
After getting the pump, I used it once, noticed the brakes were still crappy, and then went through again. Still bad. After that I went over again with the FSM method. They seemed good at this point, and I saw no bubbles at any location.
Went for a test drive <10mph, still no brakes. I can get them to grab a bit and stop the car if I pump the pedal fairly rapidly, but thats it. There is no improvement from the past few days.
I've drained more than 80oz of fluid now. My only remaining guess is that the calipers are somehow keeping a pocket of air somewhere inside.
02-19-2008, 09:29 PM
#33
Just wrapped up another long evening with the brakes.
To start, while I was waiting for a ride to get the kit, I opened everything up and let it drip out for a while, with the cap off.
After getting the pump, I used it once, noticed the brakes were still crappy, and then went through again. Still bad. After that I went over again with the FSM method. They seemed good at this point, and I saw no bubbles at any location.
Went for a test drive <10mph, still no brakes. I can get them to grab a bit and stop the car if I pump the pedal fairly rapidly, but thats it. There is no improvement from the past few days.
I've drained more than 80oz of fluid now. My only remaining guess is that the calipers are somehow keeping a pocket of air somewhere inside.
To start, while I was waiting for a ride to get the kit, I opened everything up and let it drip out for a while, with the cap off.
After getting the pump, I used it once, noticed the brakes were still crappy, and then went through again. Still bad. After that I went over again with the FSM method. They seemed good at this point, and I saw no bubbles at any location.
Went for a test drive <10mph, still no brakes. I can get them to grab a bit and stop the car if I pump the pedal fairly rapidly, but thats it. There is no improvement from the past few days.
I've drained more than 80oz of fluid now. My only remaining guess is that the calipers are somehow keeping a pocket of air somewhere inside.
02-19-2008, 09:39 PM
#35
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Just wrapped up another long evening with the brakes.
To start, while I was waiting for a ride to get the kit, I opened everything up and let it drip out for a while, with the cap off.
After getting the pump, I used it once, noticed the brakes were still crappy, and then went through again. Still bad. After that I went over again with the FSM method. They seemed good at this point, and I saw no bubbles at any location.
Went for a test drive <10mph, still no brakes. I can get them to grab a bit and stop the car if I pump the pedal fairly rapidly, but thats it. There is no improvement from the past few days.
I've drained more than 80oz of fluid now. My only remaining guess is that the calipers are somehow keeping a pocket of air somewhere inside.
To start, while I was waiting for a ride to get the kit, I opened everything up and let it drip out for a while, with the cap off.
After getting the pump, I used it once, noticed the brakes were still crappy, and then went through again. Still bad. After that I went over again with the FSM method. They seemed good at this point, and I saw no bubbles at any location.
Went for a test drive <10mph, still no brakes. I can get them to grab a bit and stop the car if I pump the pedal fairly rapidly, but thats it. There is no improvement from the past few days.
I've drained more than 80oz of fluid now. My only remaining guess is that the calipers are somehow keeping a pocket of air somewhere inside.
................... and perhaps confirm the correct operation of the master's mechanicals by first blocking off all outlets from the master and then pressing on the pedal - you should have a solid pedal immediately
Last edited by LvR; 02-19-2008 at 09:42 PM.
02-19-2008, 09:47 PM
#36
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Well - if you really, really, really cannot make it work, why not make up a manual "force-filler" and start from the furthest from the master bleeder nipple - ie - make up an open bleeder nipple with a pipe and drop the end of the pipe into a full container of brake-fluid - pressurize the container with an air hose and force the brake-fluid back up through the lines into the master cylinder (ensure the pipe's end is always in a good volume of fluid else you move air up the hose again)
How would I block all its outlets? I think it must be working fine since it is able to put pressure at each bleeder valve to force fluid out when I go through the normal bleeding procedure.
02-19-2008, 10:03 PM
#37
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How would I block all its outlets? I think it must be working fine since it is able to put pressure at each bleeder valve to force fluid out when I go through the normal bleeding procedure.
To block off the master outlets you will need soldered/brazed shut screw-in nuts like those on the pipes atm - they are cheap to buy loose and to make up. They can also be used to ensure you bleed a particular circuit properly without cross-interference from other lines - ie making your life a lot simpler - block off all but 1 outlet and bleed only the open outlet pipe's nipples till you have a solid pedal.
WRT keeping the pedal depressed when "bleeding" a nipple ....................
Its no use simply keeping it depressed and opening the nipple - you need to re-close the nipple again before all the pressure escapes from the line - ie - you open the nipple for an extremely short time and close it again before the pedal has traveled to the bottom - that way you are close to keeping the air/bubbles compressed and moving to-wards the bleeder nipple when you open it ..................... imo a stick is useless for this exercise as you have already demonstrated - you need a person with some savvy to "pump" the pedal fast (full release and full pressurization about 3 times) at which time the pedal should be stepped on and you should open the nipple while ensuring you and the person above manage to not allow the pedal to reach bottom ever.
02-20-2008, 12:11 AM
#38
might be a stupid question, but you're not letting the master cylinder run dry while sucking the fluid through are you? and while using the pump, are you closing the valves while it is still sucking to ensure that there is no air getting back inside the lines?
