maxima_man1992

When I start my car up in the moring to go to school I hear a "tick tick" noise coming from the right side of the engine bay. After the car runs for like 5-10 seconds it goes away and I wont hear it again till I start it up the next morning. Does anyone know what this could be??

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

probably a valve lifter. since it's only doing it for 5-10 seconds (mine does that but for an even shorter amount of time.. 2 seconds at the most unless it's the first start after an oil change) then it's going to be more difficult to find which one it is. only way to do it for sure is for you to pull the rocker shafts when it's as cold as it needs to be to tick, and feel each lifter until you find a bad one. it may be shorter than the rest, maybe spongier... but honestly if it only happens for 5-10 secs it's gonna be pretty hard to identify which is the baddie.

Wiking

- Ticks?
- Another possibility: Valve lifters need time to be filled with oil ... try original oil filter ... its supposed to block oil return after engine is cut off. Lifters will have oil at startup before pressure goes up.

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

purolator pureone filter has anti-drainback valve. VEs are supposed to use those speshul filters to help the VTCs but we're all VG here so the pureone should help.

LvR

+1 on leaky lifter noise.

IMO on a motor with a lot of mileage there is bound to be lifter wear too .................... even though the std oil filter has an anti-drain-back valve (here in South Africa anyway) it will not prevent a funky lifter leaking when under pressure (cam lobe keeping valve off seat) - there are simply too many oil galleries/bearing surface areas for the pressurized oil to escape through even if the filter is "perfect". The anti-drain-back valve will ensure that the oil pressure is up as soon as possible, but even if its perfect, it cannot cater for loss of oil volume in the galleries due to worn bearings - a volume of oil will always be lost that can only be replenished by the oil pump before pressure can be created.

I think I have a better chance of falling pregnant as a male than you have of figuring a leaky lifter that way. Unless you are lucky enough to have a cam lobe coming to rest on the leaky lifter and the lifter happens to be in the mood to leak at that stage, you will not catch it that way since they don't leak oil unless under pressure.

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

so then is there even a sure-fire way to know which one was bad? Or just swap all 12 and call it a day?

LvR

The only guaranteed way is to remove them, clean them, fill them and then place them under pressure in a jig and measure the leakage .........................

Realistically - its a crap-shoot to replace only one even if you follow that procedure because the other lifters have all seen the same conditions of use and thus are close to the same malady.

IMO you live with it as long as you can tolerate the racket and replace them all at the same time (after starting the motor don't race it and don't drive off till that lifter has gone quiet)

Wiking

A used VGE repair can be co$$$$tly ... one should check all worn components. And after that, check rear wheel well rust ... only then decide whattodo. I guess worn lifters mean so many miles that new engine (possibly also chassis) is better choice.

Smbdy smwhere said that in Japan they swap engines every 3 yrs. If that is true (?) then get such low mileage engine from there...

LvR

I have a VG with 300K km - "perfect" service history, oil + filter changes every 5000km or twice a year and still I have one or two noisy lifters - especially when its cold (15C here in South Africa) - they sometimes (1 in 5 starts) tap for a second or two on cold startup and after that the motor is as quiet as can be. Strange thing they are much quieter on startup in summer.

I plan on driving this thing for quite a while and will not be doing anything to replace the lifters - I just baby it till the lifters are quiet and the motor is warm.

Luckily we don't have snow/ice/salt problems here, so I think our wheel-wells should easily outlast the motor - mine is still pristine

Wiking

The startup lifter tapping can be seen as a feature. If it doesnt go out, then there is a problem...

There is a small amount of oil which may flow back if filter has not got the valve. But how much actually is it [backflow oil qty]? This is Nissan service claim, but is it true?

Guess, pls correct me: 'Full' lifters have total 100 milliliters when full. Engine stopped, half flows out? The channel to lifters contains 10milliliters? ---> now engine starts. What is the real effect if the channel is a. Empty, b. Full?

LvR

On an older motor I guess I agree with your attitude that lifter noise on startup will become an inevitable "feature" for a short time.

I am not in possession of engineering data for these motors and cannot correct you at all because I simply don't know either - we all just guess based on the amount of mechanical experience in our history and logic.

My guess is that its not the overall volume leaking out of all the lifters combined that is the problem but rather the amount leaking out of a specific worst-case one in the engine that is causing the racket.

3ml out of a single lifter is way more serious than eg 9ml out of 12 in total.

As to what happens with lifters having leaked oil on startup:

With the gallery to the lifters full of oil, a motor with no other wear present anywhere, and the pump able to immediately supply pressure and flow on first rotation, the lifter must first reach a state of relaxation before it can be filled (valve closed cam position) - ie - it will still be noisy for at least a single turn.

More likely - wear present allover the motor, more than one lifter having leaked a little and the galleries not filled (gravity eventually overcoming surface tension of oil normally keeping oil in the bearings and thus in the galleries) - oil pump needs to first fill the oil filter, then the galleries, then fill the lifters and bearings and only then start making any meaningful pressure ................... many many rotations of motor and thus oil-pump before sufficient pressure is present to "pump" the lifters solid.

Whatever - its all academic - just keep your oil and filter clean and baby the motor on startup - till you spend the money to replace worn components you have to suffer the racket, and from my experience it can last for many many years/distances like that anyway so other than irritation value, its of no real consequence.

Wiking

As the noise is 'random', e.g. some click 'every 10th' cold startup (why just cold?), it cant be issue of wear, can it. So its kinda feature...

Just those lifters that cam 'happens' to keep pushing against valve spring (dead engine) - will 'leak' empty = lifter noisy at startup. The noise was equal at 100kkm like now 150kkm. At 100k the engine is basically new. Another noise issue must be when lifter parts are actually worn out. (this happenend to my tiny Opel after the gallery block deprived lube - it became like diesel Valmet)

Academic = more filter sales hype. Just bough two originals: stealership had few % price hike, from 4€ to 14€. Next time will try again Fram.

(Does Fram filter have the leak valve?)

LvR

The FRAM filters we get here for the VG (PH3682) do feature a drain-back valve - I would however not make a blanket statement and say FRAM filters for the VG in the rest of the world will also incorporate the drain-back valve - its simply too easy to do badge-engineering nowadays to blindly follow a brand.

While I am only the 2nd owner of my vehicle, I know the original owner and the way he used to drive and care for the motor - as a result I can say that this motor was completely quiet on startup up to about 250K km - since then I sort of expect to hear the lifters talking to me on startup.

As to the temperature influence - I just don't know - I just state what I experience. I suspect that the different materials found in the lifter designs may be responsible (different materials have different thermal expansion coefficients) and that at certain temps the worn and compressed lifter will start showing a greater amount of leak-down than at higher temps ..................... but that is just a guess.

Wiking

FRAM: If there was info what to look for - is the valve visible?

Cold engine means at least longer time span. Longer time for the lifter to spend pinched (leaking) between cam and valve spring.

LvR

The anti-drain-back "valve" is in fact nothing of the sort.
Its basically a dome shaped piece of silicone or rubber that is supposed to be mounted in such a way that it effectively covers the bigger set of inlet holes in the filter in such a way that the oil-pump supplied pressure "opens" the holes by pressing on the rubber/silicone to force oil into the filter - the shape of the dome and the materials elasticity "ensures" that the material flaps down on the holes when oil pressure and flow from the pump is zero

In my experience the catalogs do not always state whether or not an anti-drain-back valve is a feature of the filters (probably all brands I have worked with so far)

If you remove a new filter element from the new box packaging and look at the bottom of the filter's holes, you will be able to see the filter's anti drain-back valve covering those holes - if you are able to see either metal or filter material through those holes, the filter has no "anti drain-back" valve.

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

yeah, everyone on here who gets "JDM engines with low miles" gets them for that reason. JDM engines also make more power iirc because of the availability of higher octane fuel. But i might be wrong about that.

shoult

iTrader: (1)

I've purchased several "JDM" engines and had a friend who used to import them (that's another interesting story, BTW). Here's the skinny as he explained it to me. They don't change engines every three years. The reason we get a constant stream of cheap JDM engines here in the states is that their government requires increasingly more difficult vehicle testing each year the car gets older. The testing gets so tight that by the time the car is 3 or 4 years old it actually becomes cheaper to get rid of it and buy a newer car. Because of these regulations there is very little market for used cars in Japan. This is why you'll find pretty much any JDM engine has less then 50K miles on them.

As to power differences between Export and JDM engines, Japan has different emission regulations then we have. You find that in most cases to make a JDM engine pass our emissions tests (or at least to do it right) you have to swap over our emissions equipment which negates the power difference.

There are some JDM engines that really are different then their export versions. These are the exception rather then the rule though. One such engine was the Supercharged 1.6L 4AGZE from the JDM Corolla which had 165HP instead of the export versions 145HP in the MR2 SC. This gain was from the increased compression ratio (8.9 US vs 9.5 JDM), oil squirters on the bottom of the pistons and a few other tweaks. Most JDM engines do NOT have increased power (well, more then a good cone filter would give) once they are refit to use in the US.

Still, they are a good value for those wishing to replace a high mileage engine or blown engine.

beez5spdmax

i have a jdm vg motor on my 91 best motor i ever bought runs smooth and so quiet best choice i did when my motor went on me

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

the real question is... costs, time, skills, and everything else aside... which is better: totally rebuilt USDM or low-miles (50k as a benchmark) JDM? now i know that won't really affect the parts you'll replace, such as lifters and whatnot, I just meant from an engineering standpoint.

besides Wiking said that if the lifters are that bad, then chances are the wear on the engine as a whole is pretty bad. I've got another engine i'm going to rebuild for my car, dunno what to do with the one that i have right now.

shoult

iTrader: (1)

If you throw out value, then it boils down to WHO does the rebuild and HOW **** they are about doing it right. Typical lost cost engine rebuilders do as little as possible. They usually just slap in rod and crank bearings, Piston rings, maybe cam bearings, possibly a valve grind and new gaskets and call it good. Many home rebuilders THINK they do a great job because it's run great for 10K miles and no problems yet and it runs better then the hunk they took out. Great engine builders take the time to do LOTS of machining to just make sure the foundation of the engine starts out perfect, lots of measuring (even on brand new OEM or aftermarket parts) to continue making sure everything is alright and use certified torque wrenches to make sure the fasteners are to tightened spec.

Anybody can put the pieces of an engine together and end up with an engine that "runs". Not everyone has the patience, knowledge and money to make it run "right".

Personally, I think a <50K JDM engine is a better bet then a low cost rebuild or even most home rebuilds. The factory did a pretty good job of screwing them together in the first place and in order to continue passing tests in Japan for 4 years the owners would have had to taken pretty good care of them. However, with the 3rd Gen cars being over 14 years old I don't know if any of the "JDM" engines you might find are really JDM. At this point we're WAY past that 4-8 year old point where the meat of JDM engines come from.

LvR

+1

Wiking

I'd say only few individuals cando that. (not me) ... one issue is the mechanical aspect, another the computerization & the swamp between.

Nissan Original Filter A5208 H890C and its flow back 'valve':

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

well i've got all the time in the world to rebuild it right. I'll have the block and head machined and once they're back, i'll make sure to measure everything with a nice caliper, i'll get 2 more tq wrenches (one for low stuff like 1-20, another for high stuff like 50-150, and i already have one that's good for 10-80), and basically just take my time and get all the right shims and stuff too, because i'd rather have a perfect engine in a year than a so-so rebuild in a week.

shoult

iTrader: (1)

Make sure they don't remove to much material from the deck and the head. On an overhead cam engine that can lead to retarded static timing due to chain slack. You may want to get adjustable cam gears (are there any available for the VE/VG?).

Other good things to do are to align bore the crank and camshafts and of course at least cleanup of the piston bores. For a street engine DO NOT get a 5 angle valve job. Get no more then a three angle. Three angle will wear fast enough. I've seen guys go through a 5 angle valve job on a street engine in less then 10K. Get your crank balanced at the shop as well. Use LOTS of assembly lube on EVERYTHING (well not electronic stuff ). Make sure your new torque wrenches are certified. Usually, brand new they are "close". The guys on the tool trucks can certify them for you for a small fee.

You can also do what I call a home balance. Get a good digital gram scale and weigh all your rotating mass parts individually. Find the lightest one and then remove weight from the others until they match the weight of the lightest. Do this for your rods and pistons seperatley. Then make sure the assemblies weigh the same as well.

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

i has Veggie so will the head/deck stuff matter as much as it would on a VE? granted the 1mm or whatever difference will set the belt off by 1mm i suppose... but anyhow, is it such a big deal on a belted motor?

ya that other stuff all sounds good. keep the tips coming, I'll check back on this thread when i get around to doing all the work

oh and what surface of the piston do you drop the weight from? inside?

and what's a "tool truck"... i'm not familiar with that term. I'd probably know it by a different name maybe?

shoult

iTrader: (1)

It still is. A belted engine was the first one I ran into this on.

Very lightly drill the journal halfway between the rod and piston skirt. Never more then the depth of the drill tip.

You know, Snap-On, Mac Tool trucks etc that drive around to the local mechanic shop and sell tools.