CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

yea it could be. not many of us are going to have experience with this because not many of us have a mechanic as incompetent as yours... but any time something is hooked up wrong there's potential for damage to occur. just look what happened when my brother put his processor into his motherboard turned 90deg the wrong way. as soon as he hit the power button, it popped and started smoking. he pulled the processor back off and it had partially melted into the ZIF socket, and yanked one of the pins out with it.

rmdl51

iTrader: (4)

OMG!! I can't freaking believe it! I thought "come on! loose screws! nah!" FVCK! ALL OF THEM!!!! just please tell me how tight those valve cover screws should be? I didn't put so much pressure because I'm afraid of damage a gasket or something...

even from the rear valve cover I found three loose screws so I thighten them about half turn more, in front two of them about 1 1/2 turn more and the rest about 1 turn or less, for these screws is there such thing as too tight?

Ok after doing this I check the resistance on the IACV and all readings are 37.5ohms, weird thing, I test again the injectors and all the readings this time were 12.6ohms, I mean the 3 front ones I'm dealing with, so I was like... so it fixed itself by magic, I don't believe it.

So I turn the car on and sound... A WHOLE LOT BETTER!! so I was willing to get out for a test drive then I put it on D and I saw white smoke coming from under everywhere I could say mainly under Plenum intake so I put it back to P and problem is back, ruuunn.....ruuuunn....ruuunnn..... RPM needle jumps again so I tried and shoot a small video, I haven't look at it on the PC I hope you can notice and give me an idea.

Oh for a few seconds I remember how strong My Max was but there's still hope ( I hope so) and I will post a link to the videos in a minute.

----------------------------
EDIT:
Videos!! sorry for the bad quality, the longest one the car was ok, one that is very dark you can hear what I mean! and one very very short you can see the smoke! barely but you can see it!

Wiking

Dont think so. No electronics there, just the coil. The damage -if any- is in the ECU -side.

You can power self step it with jumper wires as said. But to see it move, u must open it. Or listen while smbdy does the exercise... Or just listen while idle is hunting: IACV stepper motor is running like squirrel.

Anyways, good coil resistance doesnt still mean IACV is workin. The screw has to freely rotate...

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

ecu damage eh... since the wires were expecting 37ohm resistance and got none, this is entirely possible, in the same way that a shorted injector harness will fry it... hmm.

***********
dude, just pay shipping and i'll send you my 90 a/t ECU ... i feel bad for what's happened to you and i know for a fact this ECU is good. you have too much weird **** that got messed up by this guy... at least let's get you to where you KNOW the ECU is good... then work from there. I guess we should verify all harnesses just to be sure. also have you checked those grounds on the rear lip of the UIM near the heater hoses and stuff? grounds are really important. also get that alligatorclip jump wire like wiking showed you for your distributor. as many things as we can make sure are right, the better... helps eliminate problem causes that we could have taken care of, and saves time, gets your max up to par quicker.

Wiking

Actually I didnt follow how the wiring was whacked... If the IACV output has been just out, then no damage. If it has been shorted, possibly... However, ECU is quite robust animal, and I think the possibility to harm the outputs =drivers is lots less than gettin +12V into O2 one volt input...

I just want to probe/point the possibilities which seem to be bigger than earth in this case.

I havent yet looked at the videos - but IACV functionality has to be ensured.

The different injector coil resistance measurement - can also mean intermittently bad coil. Or bad measurement (happens often).

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

iacv 2x3 plug was in the tranny inhibitor, and vice versa
injector front bank subharness 2x2 plug was in the P/N plug on inhibitor and vice versa

also remember that his injector wires were shorted, and they the condition lasted alot longer than just a second or two... it was driven like this.

rmdl51

iTrader: (4)

Yup! Car was driven let's say 50 miles with the wrong plugs, two days I take the car to work which is 10 miles one way plus the testing drives and I'm not counting the mechanic drive my car from his place to mine which is about 20 miles or so.

I have a spare ECU & TCU bought from JY, but I guess like you say yours is for sure 100% in good working condition and that's what really matters.

But I'm concerned if I have a short somewhere and put another ECU it will get damaged too.

have you watched the videos? can you tell the problem? I mean did the noise points you to some direction? I should've take the RPM needle but I was rushed! I don't wanna keep the car running with the smoke coming out, also please let me know about my concern of the valve cover screws? is bad to put them very tight? BTW there was only I wasn't able to reach, exactly under IACV, but I don't know if it's loose or not.

And I don't fully understand how to test the IACV the way you (wiking) mention, I have a spare IACV from my old engine... should I swap it and test it?

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

toss the other iacv on for kicks. i can't really tell why it's hunting like that unless the iacv is just being too sluggish to respond. or if you have some sort of weird vac leak that is outside the ECU's ability to compensate... and its ability to compensate would be rather hampered also by being fried! also it still sounds like you have a single-cylinder misfire or something. do you have the ability to test compression yourself? but it's gonna be really hard to test anything difinitively until we are sure your ECU works right. you can try your spare ecu now, and if it works, great, if you fry it, you know you have more wires to swap haha.

(going to sleep. will check in morning)

Wiking

1st video, IACV is ok, all cylinders fire, idle is high. ECU is about healthy. No need to test IACV at this stage. Test is done by applying one pin +12V, the opposite pin (see table) is given ground. Motor takes one step. Next u move your eyes one line down in the table... repeat with these pins. Stepper motor takes now next step. And so on...

Idle is high if theres a air leak, idle adjustment wrong (try the FSM idle adj procedure), temp sensor bad or its wire loose.

Possibly upper intake is not seated well, seals broken? Spraying around with starter gas would effect the rpm radically ---> leak was found if there is any.

The cover screw has to be accessed, tightened. By any means available...
Oil leak has to be addressed, the cover taken out and seals inspected replaced if necessary. Then take a tst drive.


-----------------------------------
see IACV http://www.cardomain.com/ride/748507/4
Idle speed (A/T: in "N" position), 7-800 rpm.
Idle Adjustment:
- Turn the mode selection on the ECU fully clockwise (closes IACV valve completely).
- Adjust engine speed by turning IACV idle speed adj screw (6.)
- Turn the mode selection on the ECU back; fully CCW

FSM: Idle adjustment is done with ECU program III; see EF&EC 29

rmdl51

iTrader: (4)

I have no idea how to test compression myself, I remember loooong time ago, I guess before sign-in into the org I remember a mechanic checked my car he took out one plug put something there and he told me to crank the car, he did that for all 6 plugs and he said "hey man, you have very poor compression at #4" but I have no idea what and how he did and if it was that test reliable or not.

You know, I still can hear air hissing somewhere, but can't figure it out, maybe I'm confused because it mixes with the HAI noise, the MAIN problem is I'm afraid to keep the car running because is giving me a lot of smoke! I see in wiking write up that IACV is very sensitive to leaks, and I don't know how to properly remove it without damage, well he says sealant is always available.

Also by removing IACV I'll be able to reach the missing valve cover screw that need to be tightened.

One more question, ECU codes are still out of the scheme right now? ECU keeps giving 33 & 34, is the knock sensor out of the question right now? actually I don't know what the knock sensor do or how do it behaves when it's bad, that's why my question.

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

eh, VG knock sensor isn't very heavily relied on. car SHOULD run fine with a 33, just have crap gas mileage. after all the car runs without o2 sensor until warm... and cars usually run fine while warming up, right? you can get a compression tester from AZ for like $40ish, maybe less. you put it in place of the plug, and it measures the PSI retained by the cylinder as you crank at WOT with the fuel pump fuse pulled (don't want the engine to actually start while the comp tester is in there)

hissing air MIGHT be those cracked solenoids.. a little romp through the EC section will help show where to crimp stuff off to eliminate that factor. you can probably find something to plug those little vac lines with right? check all other vac lines on the car too, especially the ones to the charcoal canister (under battery).. check the canister for cracks as well. i smashed mine with my a/t when i took it out, so i have a lil vac leak and my car stumbles randomly when warming up.

rmdl51

iTrader: (4)

Great! I didn't know a compression tester might be that cheap, I'll grab one after work today!

mmmm..chacoal canister? I have to take a look, actually never pay attention to anything under the batt.

Probably I'll get those solenoids if I'm able to go to JY this weekend, or if they are cheap brand new and not dealer items....

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

just reuse your old solenoids if they aren't cracked too. Courtesy has them for $82 apiece... so don't buy new.

and yea if your canister has any loose vac lines, that could explain confusion for HAI sound, since they are in moderately similar locations on the car.

rmdl51

iTrader: (4)

Nope, I don't have those solenoids from the old engine, I'll probably get them from JY, hoping they are ok, also I have the IACV air duct cracked but it's from the very end, even after the roundish backet, I want to replace that one but it's very hard to get one from JY in good condition, and AZ & pepboys don't have it.

Do you know a good place I can buy all those hoses at a decent price, I mean I don't want to pay a ridiculous price of $40-50 for a hose at the stealer price, but I wish I could replace all my vacuum hoses with brand new ones that will give me peace of mind, I forgot to tell you when I replace the PCV valve I break that hose and went to JY and got one (AZ and pepboys said dealer item) but it was a PITA to get it out and get it in because it was so dryied out no flex sections, and it cracked a little bit again at the very end after the bracket so I think it's safe but I don't know, maybe all this little cracks are causing funny behavior

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

crack kills mang. autozone sells vac hose by the foot at a reasonable price. remember do ONE HOSE AT A TIME so you don't mix anything up. ones you may forget are the FPR vac hose and the heatercore valve hose. you can get another iacv hose from the JY just make sure it isn't cracked.

Wiking

Oftentimes cover has to be taken out, liquid sealant added.

There is cheap 5c KS bypass, use it at least in testing. Keeps ign retarded, performance lags a little. See my CDomain page nine.

Oil & air leak first: buy that starter gas, youll find the leak when u spray.

Compression is not your current problem, last check after all else is ok. And didnt u change engine?

rmdl51

iTrader: (4)

I think compression is important, maybe like you said not the first thing to take care of but I believe if I got crappy reading for compression what's the point of fixing something else if my compression is bad right? if I have bad compression what could be the cause? bad gaskets? worn cylinder?

However I surely need to take care of oil & air leak first, so I never bought/used that starter gas, could you guide me how to use it? spray it? where? car on? please let me know how to proceed on this one bc i have no idea, Thanks

Wiking

First suspicion would be leaking valves, then piston rings. If whole engine is bad, yes, all calculations need a new estimation... The gasket can also blow, once my gasket blew between cylinders: bad cylinder head /bolt tightenin job...

If theres a gas cloud that is sucked into engine, that would cause rpm to rise. Getting that claoud on any suspicious area. Another way is spray water or oil, that would block the leak temporarily, causing rpm drop. I have used oil when seeking intake gasket leaks...

rmdl51

iTrader: (4)

So, what do I do with that starter gas? start the car then spray all over around until the engine reacts different? can't do that for a long time, smoke start coming up very quick I'll say within 2 minutes I'll have a considerable cloud of white smoke.

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

white smoke is concerning. USUALLY white smoke is coolant. and usually that means a blown head gasket. which causes cars not to run very well. which is why i suggested the compression test b/c you have white smoke (sorry i didn't' say why earlier). can you smell the smoke? what's it smell like?

rmdl51

iTrader: (4)

well it smell like... oil? and yes I'm concerned about that too... VERY concerned, I don't think it's coolant but I'm not sure, if you say so it's for a reason I think, but if it helps, I don't see any leak anywhere, no oil, no coolant... it seems the smoke comes from under the valve cover, actually can't be sure but somehow suspect is coming from somewhere around the Y-pipe, not saying it's there I'm just seeing come from the bottom, it doesn't come from intake that's for sure.

BTW, I just came back from JY and no luck, they only had a few Max and two of them without engine the rest that still had those solenoids are cracked the same or worst than mine, I completely forgot to stop by AZ, but I will tomorrow and grab the compression tester.

I grab the starter fluid from wal-mart (they didn't have any compression tester) but I'm confused about how to use it, directions say spray about 2 sec directly to intake and then start the car. my question is what for? how will this help me find a oil/air leak? are those directions ok? what does it mean by spray directly on intake? take out the plastic tube and right on the plenum?

maximaman1313

the directions on the can are to help start your car if it had a fuel prob or something.

what you do with the starter fluid is spray areas of intake, anywhere the motor can possibly suck air in, (intake manifold, throttle body, IACV, etc.) around where they meet, or a seal is. motor has to be running. and will change speeds if you find a leak....starter fluid will get sucked into combustion..

dont take intake off. your tryin to find a leak around seals and gaskets.

Wiking

Has radiator coolant level stayed the same? No oil film on top?

How is engine oil stick, looks ok, no grey foam?

Digital camera comes handy: poke it down there and take hundreds pics with flash on and get a deeper view. Some of em even may be in focus

rmdl51

iTrader: (4)

Yes, coolant level stays the same, even reserve hasn't move a bit, I check the radiator and it has some rust so it's not all green has some brown but it's not oil, otherwise it won't dissolve right?

oil dipstick look fine normal oil color as far as I know no grey, black or any other suspicious color, but I'll take pictures of both things and upload them, anywhere else I can take picture of it that could give you a clue?

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

not your fault, but man i wish we could at least find SOMETHING glaringly wrong instead of it being some stupid, obsure, hidden problem. is the smoke definitely white? or can it be viewed as blue? i guess just keep up with the hoses and vc gaskets and report back what you find with the starter fluid trick

Wiking

Your word is good enough.

Up to this smokin moment, the front has stayed cold... when exhaust heats, all dropped on it will burn for a while, then cease. Grease, wires etc.

Now is this smoke generator continuously producin more? Locate its source, pour water on the smoking engine. At some point you will hit and extinguish the 'generator' and find the spot.

rmdl51

iTrader: (4)

You're right, I'm putting all my bets that the problem is something as stupid as a loose screw, loose cable, swapped plug, swapped hose?? hey do you remember I had a broken EGR hose that this stupid mechanic connect wrong? I'm thinking maybe I have a few vacuum hoses connected the wrong way, but I have no idea how to check them, I don't understand that section on the FSM that says "to port a, to port b, etc" well this is just a thought and I would just like to be sure all EGR hoses are connected properly.

I think maybe as wiking stated, that the smoke will cease after burning some accumulated oil, but I'm afraid to keep it running like this because while smoke comes out the RPM needle keeps moving and engine revs randomly like I was giving it gas every 5 seconds. so my idea is that if I keep it running and is overheating I will destroy gaskets or any other worst parts.

Back to the starter fluid, so should I just do as maximaman suggest, start the engine and keep spraying around intake to see if I find a place where while spraying it, changes the behavior of the engine?

ok, this may be a dumb question but I rather ask instead of be surprised, I'm no expert but I know any spray can have gas, and I'm not a a friend of use spray cans close to any place that can be ingnited and become a torch, is there some kind of precautions I should take while spraying this thing with the engine on?

BTW, nobody told me if it's ok to tighten as much as possible all the valve cover screws, if I put too much strenght will I damage the gasket or something, or it's completely safe to tighten as much as I can

Wiking

At the moment seems so. First find the smoke aggregate: try hosing with water.

Engine revs are 'not' random: Start: The ECU detects smtg wrong, gives IACV command, it corrects idle up or down, GOTO Start. This will go on forever until the misfire cause is found.

I bet - all my bets on that - coolant air bleed has not done properly? Raise the car front 10" or park it in such angle and open the bleed valve, let it run until it warms. I typically drive one hour with bleeding hose, that will get all bubbles out. If not, engine coolant will start boiling. See http://www.cardomain.com/ride/748507/8

There are pics all around for the small hoses, I guess Cape has a collection? Attack one at a time.

Gas sing:
When u get a small cloud (short 1s burst) near a hole that sucks into cylinders from that cloud, engine rpm will increase. There's no danger as no fire... Gas flow stops as u stop pressing. Just go on and make bursts all around and hit jackpot

The cover screws have to be tight, but not with ya all might... you can also see the right torque from the FSM page I referenced earlier. Still, if seal is leaky it has to be corrected. Have bright light, camera, mirror - to see around. If you have smoke billowing all around, then the leak is REALLY visible.

rmdl51

iTrader: (4)

Hello again! my problem is when I get home is almost dark, and can't usually work on the car on weekdays, but I tried today, as much as the daylight allow me, I turned on the car and spray bursts of starter gas all around with no effect at all.

I think is an overheating issue, how soon have you seen the temp neddle start to raise? 2 minutes? before it didn't do this I have to idle the car for about 10 minutes for the temp neddle to get up to 40%, right now it start rising after 2 minutes, how soon the upper radiator hose should be hot? right now the upper hose is warm after 2-3 minutes of running the car and I burn my hand a little bit by accidentally touching this...



The car again runs fine as in the previous videos but then as the temp needle rise, RPM neddle start jumping, actually I see it drop from 2k to 1.5k but then it got back to 2k but as long as I keep running the engine it starts doing this more frecuently.

Now, the million dollar question, if it's a overheating problem, why does it start doing it with 6 cylinders and not with 3, it makes sense to think that I have a problem with the coolant system and it is only able to keep cool 3 cylinders but not all 6, but is this possible?

Oil burn smell is gone! I know how burnt oil smells because my previous engine was leaking and it give me that smell often, but now it's hard to describe how it smells , I percibe no particular odor from this smoke, even it's somewhat dark I think there's no chance to be blue smoke, is white, doesn't smell like gas, neither oil, it just smells like smoke...damn! why we can't email odors yet

I touched upper radiator hose, lower one, looking for leaks, but nothing, what about water pump? if it fails could cause this?

I got the compression tester, cheaper than expected ($25) but.... I don't know how to use it LOL well it has instructions I'll read them and if I'm confused I'll let you know to guide me about that, but I think the smoke issue first right? what do you think?

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

first bold section: you mean that it heats up like that when all 6 injectors are running but not on 3? duh... on 3 cylinders you aren't making but half the exhaust heat. the rings can get hot but that won't be enough to make normal heat... fire is the real source of heat.

2nd bold section: pull fuel pump fuse. run until car no longer starts. pull 1 spark plug. put compression tester into spark plug hole. crank engine over for 2-3 seconds. go look at what the dial says. rinse and repeat around the whole engine.

Wiking

What makes u say the engine overheats? It will be hot after few minutes: youre running the engine, burnin fuel, 2000rpm (like in speed, 50mph ? 40kW ? )

Try getting worth of four house's full heating pwr into one metal box - sure youll burn fingers...

Try now adjustin idle down as described.

rmdl51

iTrader: (4)

Yes, you see I only get this smoke when I run all 6 injectors if I unplug the plug from the 3 front injectors it won't smoke up or behave like that.

Now, I'm not affirming that it overheats, I'm asking, how do I know if the current generated heat is normal, I think is too hot for 3 minutes, no? if it's fine just let me know, I just find out weird because I don't recall ever see my temp neddle rise up so fast and you guys mention (caped) that white smoke is usually coolant. So i think to myself "this could point to a malfunctioning coolant system and prolly overheated engine"

Wiking, can't adjust idle when my RPM neddle is jumping around after 2 minutes, or, are you telling me that high idle may be causing this weird behavior?

I will try to run the compression test right now, since I don't need anything but a lamp, but for the leak inspection I definitely need daylight.

Wiking

I'd try the adj.

Prop throttle full open when testing compression.

Test for erratic idle: unplug O2 sensor wire connector.

If the engine wont start throwing coolant out, then cooling works as intended. Youre idling 3x, so heat comes up 6x.

I bet your coolant has not yet been bled as described...

rmdl51

iTrader: (4)

Nope, coolant has not been bleed, lifting my car on my parking spot is somewhat complicated, I have to manage that nobody see's me (you know the forbidden mechanic work rules on the apartment complex) besides I have no idea where the bleed valve is, besides, can't run the car for even 5 minutes, neither 1 hour! so, I can manage to do lift my car for a moment if you explain to me where this bleed valve is and how long is the minimum I can run the car to bleed out all the bubbles.

Idling that high makes 6x the heat makes sense, that might explain why I consider the car warm up so quickly, now what does the O2 sensor have to do with idle, IIRC caped mentioned not to worry about O2 sensor at the moment because if malfunctioning (code 33) it will only got me crappy gas mileage, I'm not complaining I'm just asking what does the O2 sensor have to do with idle, and where is that O2 sensor wire connector? so after unpluging O2 sensor the cooland should work fine and if it throws coolant out means it has some malfunctioning?


Ok, finally I read the instructions from the compression tester and also of course read the instructions from caped, and it seems easier than I thought, (haven't done yet) but I still have a couple of questions, when said that I should run the compression test at WOT you mean that by flooring the gas pedal when cranking the car? or like the manual says pull the throttle cables and restrain them with a cable or chain.

Another thing it mention that confues me is "disconnect the electronic ignition module or remove the primary battery terminal from the ignition coil, on GM HEI V-8 V-6 disconnect primary lead from distro cap" so does this have to be done if yes, how? I don't get it, too or that's why I took out the fuel filter fuse?

---------------

EDIT: hey wiking, is the BV bleed valve on your write up the one you are talking about to bleed the bubbles out?

Wiking

BV is bleed valve... to get air out.

Unplug wire from coil to distr cap = no ignition. Or any other way just crank without running...

Throttle doesnt know ho it is kept open...

( sorry ... my hp Kb jammed... was temporarily landlocked to EU....)

now. Dont open BV when hot.

O2 doesnt create heat. Taking it out, would give indication wassup. O2 is in the exhaust, peek under, 'pass side seat'. Follow the wire up to engine comp.

internetautomar

iTrader: (30)

have you pulled your spark plugs yet?

rmdl51

iTrader: (4)

Do you mean at this moment for the compression test? the answer will be NO, if you ask if I removed the spark plugs before, YES I even showed some pictures of one front plug and one rear plug.... why?

stupid me that's why I shouldn't be reading/posting while I'm sleepy

CapedCadaver

iTrader: (8)

there's a harness on the distro's coil on the d-side you can unplug. i prefer the fuel pump trick so you don't get fuel up in the compression tester but that's just preference. on a carbureted car you can't really do that b/c they operate under such low fuel pressure that gas would still get in.

yes just floor it while cranking.

as for the o2 thing... the o2 will not matter in openloop, but once the car is warmed up, then yes, a faulty o2 circuit can potentially influence things. so to take that out of consideration you can unplug it like wiking said.

rmdl51

iTrader: (4)

Great Caped! Thanks to clear that up for me! makes a lot of sense, I've read wiking write up and I know what do you mean by openloop, so makes sense that if I have a 33 code and when car warms up starts behaving weird, the O2 sensor could influence this.

I though so about that distro's coil, because instructions didn't mention anything about fuel pump fuse, I'll follow your method, I feel safer following your instructions

Wiking

No joke doing smtg the first time. All we have been there; I admire your perseverance... My guess after that bleed, disconnecting O2, youll be on a test drive. Some of us, at least me, learn only after ruining few engines