Clutch pedal stuck on floor
11-09-2009, 07:15 PM
#1
Clutch pedal stuck on floor
92 SE 5spd, ~200k miles
I was driving and my clutch pedal went all the way to the floor and stayed there. I had to pull over but eventually started the car in 2nd with the pedal stuck down and drove home <1/2 mile in 2nd gear. The clutch didn't seem to slip at all.
My master cylinder was full and I didn't find any leaks. I bled the slave a little but didn't do the full job since I didn't have tubing (will get some tomorrow). The underside of my clutch pedal looks okay, and the spring looks okay. Oh I can put it in all gears except for 1st right now.
The only thing that looked weird was that the slave cylinder pin seemed to poke out and push the clutch fork. Is that normal?
Any input is greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance.
I was driving and my clutch pedal went all the way to the floor and stayed there. I had to pull over but eventually started the car in 2nd with the pedal stuck down and drove home <1/2 mile in 2nd gear. The clutch didn't seem to slip at all.
My master cylinder was full and I didn't find any leaks. I bled the slave a little but didn't do the full job since I didn't have tubing (will get some tomorrow). The underside of my clutch pedal looks okay, and the spring looks okay. Oh I can put it in all gears except for 1st right now.
The only thing that looked weird was that the slave cylinder pin seemed to poke out and push the clutch fork. Is that normal?
Any input is greatly appreciated! Thanks in advance.
Last edited by ghostmax; 11-09-2009 at 07:18 PM.
11-09-2009, 07:23 PM
#2
if you push on the release fork (where the tip of the slave cylinder's pin is) in the same direction that the slave cylinder normally pushes it (away from the engine) does it have any resistance? does it wiggle around? pull the pedal up and push the slave clylinder pin back into the slave cylinder and see if it leaves a gap between the pin and where the fork's resistance starts.
11-09-2009, 07:41 PM
#3
I could not push that fork in any direction. It actually seemed like the rod from the slave was extended as far out as possible. This is with the pedal up.
I removed the boot from the slave and the fluid just poured out. I think the slave is bad.
I removed the boot from the slave and the fluid just poured out. I think the slave is bad.
11-09-2009, 07:58 PM
#4
ah... even without the 2nd paragraph i now would have said slave cylinder. perhaps the piston came all the way out then somehow got caught on the edge of the cylinder and got stuck there and couldn't go back in.. tho i've never actually heard of that happening. regardless, a new slave should fix it, unless for some weird reason your release fork is bent and thus causing the slave to over-extend... which again i've never actually heard of but it is theoretically possible
Last edited by CapedCadaver; 11-09-2009 at 08:04 PM.
11-09-2009, 08:29 PM
#5
When i got back into my maxima after 1.5 years, i went to start it up after doing some minor maintenance, and my clutch pedal just went all the way to the floor with absolutely NO resistance. It did this about three times, so i got out, everything looked fine, so i tried it again, and no problems.....can't explain what happened, as the fluids are fine and everything seems alright.
just throwing that out there.
just throwing that out there.
11-14-2009, 04:10 PM
#7
Okay, I got a new slave cylinder from Nissan. Installed it but during the bleed when I pushed the clutch pedal down, the dust boot filled with fluid. Does this mean the piston cup is leaking and the new slave is bad?
11-14-2009, 05:11 PM
#8
do you know how old the clutch is?
11-14-2009, 06:19 PM
#9
I installed the clutch myself 5 years ago and has ~60K miles on it.
What i've tried so far (different methods, not steps):
1) Ran fluid by gravity with bleeder screw open till steady flow.
2) Traditional method of pumping clutch pedal, then opening bleed screw. When I do this, the slave rod extends and the boot fills with fluid.
3) Pushed the slave rod back in and closed bleeder screw to get air out that way.
I think I will try to pump fluid back through the bleeder screw up to the master cylinder. Saw a youtube vid showing this on BMW...
What i've tried so far (different methods, not steps):
1) Ran fluid by gravity with bleeder screw open till steady flow.
2) Traditional method of pumping clutch pedal, then opening bleed screw. When I do this, the slave rod extends and the boot fills with fluid.
3) Pushed the slave rod back in and closed bleeder screw to get air out that way.
I think I will try to pump fluid back through the bleeder screw up to the master cylinder. Saw a youtube vid showing this on BMW...
11-15-2009, 04:19 PM
#11
Abunai: Yep the cups in the old and new Nissan slave both had nicks in the rubber seals.
I went to AZ and got a slave from there and the seal was good, but the part where the clutch piping/hose inserted leaked. So I transferred the piston with intact seal from the AZ part to the old slave housing. After I bled it backwards by pumping brake fluid from the slave up to the master, I still had a leak at the slave boot when pushing my clutch pedal down. How many times should I change the slave seals/piston to find one that doesn't leak?
This is very frustrating. Is there any chance that the Master is bad even though it is transferring pressure to the slave? Could my clutch fork be bent? I was able to drive home in 2nd gear so I think the clutch is still good.
I'll be darned if I have to take this to the shop since I haven't done that...ever.
I went to AZ and got a slave from there and the seal was good, but the part where the clutch piping/hose inserted leaked. So I transferred the piston with intact seal from the AZ part to the old slave housing. After I bled it backwards by pumping brake fluid from the slave up to the master, I still had a leak at the slave boot when pushing my clutch pedal down. How many times should I change the slave seals/piston to find one that doesn't leak?
This is very frustrating. Is there any chance that the Master is bad even though it is transferring pressure to the slave? Could my clutch fork be bent? I was able to drive home in 2nd gear so I think the clutch is still good.
I'll be darned if I have to take this to the shop since I haven't done that...ever.
11-15-2009, 05:13 PM
#12
Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 216
That's strange.
Should not have any fluid in the boot.
There's not much to the slave cly.
The master would have nothing to do with it leaking from the slave.
Only thing I can think of is by pushing the slave rod in, you might have damaged the seal.
Shouldn't push it in all the way.
Take it apart and check the seal for damage.
If not damaged, try this:
Run a hose(make sure it's a snug fit) from the slave bleeder into a bottle with the end of the hose submerged in brake fluid.
Open the bleeder.
Fill up the master.
Look at the hose in the bottle, it should start bubbling.
If not push the peddle in about two inches.
Bubbles should start coming out.
When the bubbles stop, close the bleeder.
Pump the peddel a few times to check if you have pressure.
If not, open the bleeder and push the slave rod in just a little.
If there's still air in the system you would see bubbles coming out of the hose.
Bleed some more.
If you can snag another body to pump the peddle for you, it's much easier.
Set-up the hose in the bottle.
Have the buddy push the peddle to the floor and hold.
Open the bleeder.
Bubbles should come out of the hose. When the bubbles stop, close the bleeder.
Let go the peddle.
Repeat.
You should see the rod pushing out after a few cycles.
Don't forget to check the master for fluid.
When the bubbles stop, you should be good to go.
If you can't get pressure, you might have a bad master.
I normally change both and the hose at the same time.
Hope this helps.
Should not have any fluid in the boot.
There's not much to the slave cly.
The master would have nothing to do with it leaking from the slave.
Only thing I can think of is by pushing the slave rod in, you might have damaged the seal.
Shouldn't push it in all the way.
Take it apart and check the seal for damage.
If not damaged, try this:
Run a hose(make sure it's a snug fit) from the slave bleeder into a bottle with the end of the hose submerged in brake fluid.
Open the bleeder.
Fill up the master.
Look at the hose in the bottle, it should start bubbling.
If not push the peddle in about two inches.
Bubbles should start coming out.
When the bubbles stop, close the bleeder.
Pump the peddel a few times to check if you have pressure.
If not, open the bleeder and push the slave rod in just a little.
If there's still air in the system you would see bubbles coming out of the hose.
Bleed some more.
If you can snag another body to pump the peddle for you, it's much easier.
Set-up the hose in the bottle.
Have the buddy push the peddle to the floor and hold.
Open the bleeder.
Bubbles should come out of the hose. When the bubbles stop, close the bleeder.
Let go the peddle.
Repeat.
You should see the rod pushing out after a few cycles.
Don't forget to check the master for fluid.
When the bubbles stop, you should be good to go.
If you can't get pressure, you might have a bad master.
I normally change both and the hose at the same time.
Hope this helps.
11-15-2009, 06:02 PM
#13
ah... even without the 2nd paragraph i now would have said slave cylinder. perhaps the piston came all the way out then somehow got caught on the edge of the cylinder and got stuck there and couldn't go back in.. tho i've never actually heard of that happening. regardless, a new slave should fix it, unless for some weird reason your release fork is bent and thus causing the slave to over-extend... which again i've never actually heard of but it is theoretically possible
Abunai: Yep the cups in the old and new Nissan slave both had nicks in the rubber seals.
I went to AZ and got a slave from there and the seal was good, but the part where the clutch piping/hose inserted leaked. So I transferred the piston with intact seal from the AZ part to the old slave housing. After I bled it backwards by pumping brake fluid from the slave up to the master, I still had a leak at the slave boot when pushing my clutch pedal down. How many times should I change the slave seals/piston to find one that doesn't leak?
This is very frustrating. Is there any chance that the Master is bad even though it is transferring pressure to the slave? Could my clutch fork be bent? I was able to drive home in 2nd gear so I think the clutch is still good.
I'll be darned if I have to take this to the shop since I haven't done that...ever.
I went to AZ and got a slave from there and the seal was good, but the part where the clutch piping/hose inserted leaked. So I transferred the piston with intact seal from the AZ part to the old slave housing. After I bled it backwards by pumping brake fluid from the slave up to the master, I still had a leak at the slave boot when pushing my clutch pedal down. How many times should I change the slave seals/piston to find one that doesn't leak?
This is very frustrating. Is there any chance that the Master is bad even though it is transferring pressure to the slave? Could my clutch fork be bent? I was able to drive home in 2nd gear so I think the clutch is still good.
I'll be darned if I have to take this to the shop since I haven't done that...ever.
one way to test it is to unbolt the slave cylinder and find a way to restrict its movement (like channel locks or something) and have someone else press the pedal while the piston is fully in, and see if it leaks then. if it only leaks when extended that would further suggest that something else is wrong imo.
Last edited by CapedCadaver; 11-15-2009 at 06:13 PM.
11-15-2009, 06:44 PM
#14
Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 216
I've never seen a fork bend either, but it is a possibilty.
Seen stranger things happen on cars.
I've had a Nissan truck that had to be pressure bled.
Seems some engineer had the bright idea to run the metal line higher than the master.
No way to get the air bubble out unless it was pressure bled.
I'm not sure where the bleed hole is on this slave.
From the picture it looks like it could be on the side and not at the rear.
If it's on the side, pushing in the rod to far may cause the cup to hit the bleed hole.
This might damage the cup.
Did the original slave look and mount like the new ones????
Should be an exact copy.
Seen stranger things happen on cars.
I've had a Nissan truck that had to be pressure bled.
Seems some engineer had the bright idea to run the metal line higher than the master.
No way to get the air bubble out unless it was pressure bled.
I'm not sure where the bleed hole is on this slave.
From the picture it looks like it could be on the side and not at the rear.
If it's on the side, pushing in the rod to far may cause the cup to hit the bleed hole.
This might damage the cup.
Did the original slave look and mount like the new ones????
Should be an exact copy.
11-15-2009, 08:53 PM
#15
Brief recap (reposted here) on my Cardomain site:
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/334131/3
First, I ordered a new slave cylinder from Nissan (black piece in below pic). After installation and bleeding, I had the same problem--slave boot filled with fluid and rod extended.
Second, I bought a slave from AutoZone (silver piece in pic below)). During the bleed, I noticed fluid coming from the hole where the hydraulic line enters. The crush copper rings didn't work and make a tight seal.
Third, I took the piston and seal from the AZ piece and put it in my old slave. I bled it by hooking an oil can filled with brake fluid and pushing it backwards through the bleeder on the slave and filling it up to the master cylinder (see video of technique here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdf--suwqw0). While doing this, the piston started to move out, so I held it with my finger to keep it from fallling out of the cylinder. There was NO fluid leaking around the seal. I was holding the slave in my hand during the bleed. After all the air was out and only fluid was coming from the master, I installed everything back. When I pushed the clutch pedal down, there was no pressure. So I pumped it again. Then the slave rod extended and the boot filled with fluid.
When I turned on my car and pushed the clutch pedal down, there was a grinding noise coming from the tranny. What is going on? Is the clutch fork involved? I'd rather replace the slave and master before dropping the tranny...
Thanks all for your info so far!
http://www.cardomain.com/ride/334131/3
First, I ordered a new slave cylinder from Nissan (black piece in below pic). After installation and bleeding, I had the same problem--slave boot filled with fluid and rod extended.
Second, I bought a slave from AutoZone (silver piece in pic below)). During the bleed, I noticed fluid coming from the hole where the hydraulic line enters. The crush copper rings didn't work and make a tight seal.
Third, I took the piston and seal from the AZ piece and put it in my old slave. I bled it by hooking an oil can filled with brake fluid and pushing it backwards through the bleeder on the slave and filling it up to the master cylinder (see video of technique here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdf--suwqw0). While doing this, the piston started to move out, so I held it with my finger to keep it from fallling out of the cylinder. There was NO fluid leaking around the seal. I was holding the slave in my hand during the bleed. After all the air was out and only fluid was coming from the master, I installed everything back. When I pushed the clutch pedal down, there was no pressure. So I pumped it again. Then the slave rod extended and the boot filled with fluid.
When I turned on my car and pushed the clutch pedal down, there was a grinding noise coming from the tranny. What is going on? Is the clutch fork involved? I'd rather replace the slave and master before dropping the tranny...
Thanks all for your info so far!
11-15-2009, 09:28 PM
#16
can you pull away the rubber boot where the shift fork is and peek in there with a flashlight or better yet a digital camera in macro-mode?
if the fluid was not leaking at all when you held the thing by hand and only lost fluid upon expansion i still think it isn't the slave cylinder's fault, and there's no possible way for anything upstream of the slave (ie piping, air bubbles, master cylinder, or voodoo magic) to cause fluid to leak from a functioning slave cylinder. it has to be downstream somehow.
also it could be the tabs on the TOB bending/breaking but you will need to peer in there to see what you can see.. i dunno how much you can really see just through that hole tho.
if the fluid was not leaking at all when you held the thing by hand and only lost fluid upon expansion i still think it isn't the slave cylinder's fault, and there's no possible way for anything upstream of the slave (ie piping, air bubbles, master cylinder, or voodoo magic) to cause fluid to leak from a functioning slave cylinder. it has to be downstream somehow.
also it could be the tabs on the TOB bending/breaking but you will need to peer in there to see what you can see.. i dunno how much you can really see just through that hole tho.
Last edited by CapedCadaver; 11-15-2009 at 09:30 PM.
11-16-2009, 08:03 PM
#18
Thanks. I'm beginning to think the problem is the clutch fork, TO bearing or clips, or the actual clutch...because as Caped said, the clutch fork shouldn't overextend or allow the slave rod to push it so far when the pedal is pushed down. Weather was crappy today (no garage), so I will try to look at that stuff this week or weekend. Will keep all posted.
11-17-2009, 01:42 PM
#19
Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 216
You changed the clutch 5 years ago, so it should still be OK. Unless your racing it.
You did change the throwout bearing and the pilot bearing didn't you????
Kind of hard to see because theres not much room. Mirror and flashlight will henp.
Remove the slave.
Remove the fork boot, look inside and see if the fork is centered on the ball piviot.
Look to see if the fork is still cliped to the throwout bearing.
The fork should be able to move smoothly pushing towards the engine.
I've seen a piviot ware through a fork once.
Could be your problem.
You did change the throwout bearing and the pilot bearing didn't you????
Kind of hard to see because theres not much room. Mirror and flashlight will henp.
Remove the slave.
Remove the fork boot, look inside and see if the fork is centered on the ball piviot.
Look to see if the fork is still cliped to the throwout bearing.
The fork should be able to move smoothly pushing towards the engine.
I've seen a piviot ware through a fork once.
Could be your problem.
11-17-2009, 07:42 PM
#21
You changed the clutch 5 years ago, so it should still be OK. Unless your racing it.
You did change the throwout bearing and the pilot bearing didn't you????
Kind of hard to see because theres not much room. Mirror and flashlight will henp.
Remove the slave.
Remove the fork boot, look inside and see if the fork is centered on the ball piviot.
Look to see if the fork is still cliped to the throwout bearing.
The fork should be able to move smoothly pushing towards the engine.
I've seen a piviot ware through a fork once.
Could be your problem.
You did change the throwout bearing and the pilot bearing didn't you????
Kind of hard to see because theres not much room. Mirror and flashlight will henp.
Remove the slave.
Remove the fork boot, look inside and see if the fork is centered on the ball piviot.
Look to see if the fork is still cliped to the throwout bearing.
The fork should be able to move smoothly pushing towards the engine.
I've seen a piviot ware through a fork once.
Could be your problem.
also the pivot is on the bellhousing, and just fits up into a hemispherical indention in the fork arm, and secures there with a metal clip thingy.
11-18-2009, 01:04 PM
#22
Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 216
Not to many standard shift Maximas here.
Don't remember ever seeing one.
So I'm just going by other clutch jobs I've done.
Only once have I seen a clutch fork piviot ware through.
Took a while to figure that one out.
Finally had to drop the trans to find the problem.
Seems the person who did the clutch before didn't lub the piviot.
Might not be your problem, but just might.
I still think you have air in the system.
Hard to be sure without actually seeing it.
Don't remember ever seeing one.
So I'm just going by other clutch jobs I've done.
Only once have I seen a clutch fork piviot ware through.
Took a while to figure that one out.
Finally had to drop the trans to find the problem.
Seems the person who did the clutch before didn't lub the piviot.
Might not be your problem, but just might.
I still think you have air in the system.
Hard to be sure without actually seeing it.
11-18-2009, 02:06 PM
#23
Not to many standard shift Maximas here.
Don't remember ever seeing one.
So I'm just going by other clutch jobs I've done.
Only once have I seen a clutch fork piviot ware through.
Took a while to figure that one out.
Finally had to drop the trans to find the problem.
Seems the person who did the clutch before didn't lub the piviot.
Might not be your problem, but just might.
I still think you have air in the system.
Hard to be sure without actually seeing it.
Don't remember ever seeing one.
So I'm just going by other clutch jobs I've done.
Only once have I seen a clutch fork piviot ware through.
Took a while to figure that one out.
Finally had to drop the trans to find the problem.
Seems the person who did the clutch before didn't lub the piviot.
Might not be your problem, but just might.
I still think you have air in the system.
Hard to be sure without actually seeing it.
11-18-2009, 05:10 PM
#24
Okay, here're few pics. Looks kinda like the clip is barely hanging on.
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...0086_large.jpg
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...0087_large.jpg
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...0088_large.jpg
I think I will drop the tranny this weekend to investigate.
Abunai: I changed the fork, TO bearing and clips, retainer.
James: When your TOB tabs broke, did your clutch pedal become limp?
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...0086_large.jpg
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...0087_large.jpg
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...0088_large.jpg
I think I will drop the tranny this weekend to investigate.
Abunai: I changed the fork, TO bearing and clips, retainer.
James: When your TOB tabs broke, did your clutch pedal become limp?
Last edited by ghostmax; 11-18-2009 at 05:13 PM.
11-19-2009, 02:46 PM
#25
Member
Join Date: Jul 2003
Posts: 216
OK
it's literally impossible for air in the system to cause leakage past the seal........ i don't get why you're so fixated on that being the problem. fluid does NOT leak when he held it with his hands, fluid does leak when it's installed in position. only thing that can cause that is if the slave cylinder is able to over-extend, ie busted TOB tabs or bent release fork. if air were in the system, the pedal would go to the floor with little resistance but there would be no leakage.
Not an air problem.
Don't have to get mad though.
We're all here to help solve his problem.
I see from the pictures ghostmax took he's found the problem.
From the looks of it, the fork fell off the tabs.
Have fun.
11-19-2009, 04:08 PM
#26
Okay, here're few pics. Looks kinda like the clip is barely hanging on.
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...0086_large.jpg
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...0087_large.jpg
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...0088_large.jpg
I think I will drop the tranny this weekend to investigate.
Abunai: I changed the fork, TO bearing and clips, retainer.
James: When your TOB tabs broke, did your clutch pedal become limp?
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...0086_large.jpg
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...0087_large.jpg
http://carphotos.cardomain.com/ride_...0088_large.jpg
I think I will drop the tranny this weekend to investigate.
Abunai: I changed the fork, TO bearing and clips, retainer.
James: When your TOB tabs broke, did your clutch pedal become limp?
I think my initial issues with it when they broke was that it wouldn't go into gear, and I inspected it and determined pretty quickly the TOB was messed up.
Nonetheless, it's quite obvious in your pics your TOB is screwed up. Too bad you have to drop the transmission for a $30 part!
11-21-2009, 11:23 AM
#27
Found the problem to be the TO bearing which was deformed at the clip:
How do I get the engine rear main seal out to replace? I was thinking about stabbing it with something and pulling it out
Also I think I might try to replace the oil pan seals while I'm in there. Anything else I should do?
Thanks again y'all!
How do I get the engine rear main seal out to replace? I was thinking about stabbing it with something and pulling it out
Also I think I might try to replace the oil pan seals while I'm in there. Anything else I should do?Thanks again y'all!
Last edited by ghostmax; 11-21-2009 at 11:26 AM.
11-21-2009, 12:51 PM
#28
You can pry the rear main seal out pretty easily with a flat head screwdriver (of course don't be too rough with it or you'll scratch/mar the crank and then the new seal could leak). You could certainly stab it too 
but it'd probably have to "hook" in in order to pull the seal out with it
*edit*
Also, the oil pan half-moon seals are surprisingly a big PITA even with the engine out. Personally, I probably wouldn't bother with them unless they're leaking as you'd probably have to drop the crossmember to get the oil pan off, then screw with trying to clean all the old gasket off while upside down, etc.
but it'd probably have to "hook" in in order to pull the seal out with it *edit*
Also, the oil pan half-moon seals are surprisingly a big PITA even with the engine out. Personally, I probably wouldn't bother with them unless they're leaking as you'd probably have to drop the crossmember to get the oil pan off, then screw with trying to clean all the old gasket off while upside down, etc.
Last edited by James92SE; 11-21-2009 at 12:53 PM.
11-30-2009, 09:26 PM
#29
Update: Everything is put back together, and car is running again.
-Rear main seal and oil pan half-moon seal could be removed more easily by unbolting the metal bracket thing.
-Clutch pedal is still a little soft for me but will bleed it again
-Replaced my power steering pressure hose and all belts and now there is a low whine which happens at maximum turn as well as occasional squeal. Will continue to bleed the system. Read a few threads which have similar problems
Thanks for everyone's help again! I was thinking about selling my max, but we'll see...
-Rear main seal and oil pan half-moon seal could be removed more easily by unbolting the metal bracket thing.
-Clutch pedal is still a little soft for me but will bleed it again
-Replaced my power steering pressure hose and all belts and now there is a low whine which happens at maximum turn as well as occasional squeal. Will continue to bleed the system. Read a few threads which have similar problems
Thanks for everyone's help again! I was thinking about selling my max, but we'll see...
12-01-2009, 08:42 AM
#30
I didn't have to see the pics to know it was a problem with the fork/bearing. I reasoned it was that kind of problem on the 9th then correctly guessed TOB tabs on the 16th at noon while at 7pm on the 16th you're still talking to him about bleeding the clutch
but now that you've seen this sort of problem happen it'll be easier for you to help next time someone has this happen
You can pry the rear main seal out pretty easily with a flat head screwdriver (of course don't be too rough with it or you'll scratch/mar the crank and then the new seal could leak). You could certainly stab it too but it'd probably have to "hook" in in order to pull the seal out with it
*edit*
Also, the oil pan half-moon seals are surprisingly a big PITA even with the engine out. Personally, I probably wouldn't bother with them unless they're leaking as you'd probably have to drop the crossmember to get the oil pan off, then screw with trying to clean all the old gasket off while upside down, etc.
but it'd probably have to "hook" in in order to pull the seal out with it *edit*
Also, the oil pan half-moon seals are surprisingly a big PITA even with the engine out. Personally, I probably wouldn't bother with them unless they're leaking as you'd probably have to drop the crossmember to get the oil pan off, then screw with trying to clean all the old gasket off while upside down, etc.
Last edited by CapedCadaver; 12-01-2009 at 08:49 AM.
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