I have heard a lot of folks on this forum complain about the Maxima's handling. If you don't own an SE, I'd say you might have a right to complain. The SE though, is a whole different story. The stock SE has the poly bushings, stiffer springs, a better wheel and tire package, and so on. The SE has a lateral g rating of .83, that's very impressive for a front wheel drive car. Some of the more expensive german cars don't even have a g rating as high as that, and there rear wheel drive.

Road and track tested about 6 sporty sedans this month priced around 31-35 thousand dollars. The BMW 328, was the only car that beat the Maxima SE lateral g, with a .86. No wonder, of course it had the super handling package, with the fat 17 inch wheels. The new Lexus IS 300 only g'd at .82. For all that money, these cars should have better grip.

The Maxima is capable of race care handling if you have all the handling goodies that are on the SMX Max. The SMX Maxima had a g rating of .90. Very impressive! All you need is, Eibach springs, Tokico shocks/struts, fstb, rsb, 17x8 inch wheels, Z rated Yok's, and about $3000. Ouch!

 

Well, keep in mind that lateral g's mean about squat... And of course, the tires that came on my SE totally blew. But it's not bad handling... But most of the VW/Audi/BMW fare will kick it's *** in the handling department.

 

VW? 99% of their cars are FWD too. I wouln't say these RWD cars "kick" the maxima's *** in handling. Why? Because most of the owners can't do squat w/ them anyway. AT 8/10 or 9/10ths, the differences start showing up. Most can't even get to 7/10ths(including me probably)
I'll take my 9/10ths penalty and the better wet/snow drivabilty thanks.

 

Lateral G isn't everything. There is a lot more to making a car handle well. And I don't believe the rating of .83g. I want to know what tires they used and what surface they rated that on.

The Maximas also have lousy turn in and horrendous body roll. That's why everybody is putting sway bars and strut braces on.

I mean come on, the car doesn't even have independant rear suspension. Lets not make the car out to be something it's not.

 

"The Maximas also have lousy turn in and horrendous body roll. That's why everybody is putting sway bars and strut braces on.

I mean come on, the car doesn't even have independant rear suspension. Lets not make the car out to be something it's not."

Lousy turn in? Compared to what? Other FWD family sedans? Near-luxury FWD sedans? Fully-race prepped 93 RX-7? Make sure we're comparing apples to apples here.
And horrendous body roll? It rolls, yes. But horrendously? I don't think so. I've driven on all sorts of roads, taken high and low speed corners (those off camber low speed corners are murder on all seasons), and the Maxima SEs ride is pretty well controlled, at stock ride height. The STB is a necessity though; should've come stock. I went out one night with 3 friends - two in the maxima, two in my friend's 87 325is. We drove all over the place. I took this high speed sweeping entrance ramp (you'd have to see it...kinda odd) that says 35mph, but at the bottom and toward the end, you can hit 85-90 at the top of 3rd. It is pulling some crazy Gs (it feels like my face is distorting, even though I know it isn't, plus it was fairly difficult to do a 3-4 shift), and my friend said it was rolling considerably, though he was quite impressed. This begs the question - does it matter if it rolls?

About the rear suspension. I know it looks bad on paper, not being independent and all, but it's actually a fairly well engineered system (I should say well-engineered compromise, but that would be harsh). While not exhibiting the control of a 328i during cornering over bumps, it does pretty damn good. I drove over a bumpy section just today at about 40 or 45mph. I'd say the "comfort zone" for normal people on that corner would be about 20, maybe 25mph. It handled it really well. Didn't skid across the road or anything crazy. It's pretty damn good for being a beam, and actually, pretty damn good all by itself.

I'd also like to point out it was stated in a few auto mags back in 94 about the new 4th gen that the car was not only faster through the slalom but also had a more comfortable ride than the 3rd gen with IRS. This isn't bump control, but at least on semi-ideal road conditions (i.e. smooth highway entrace ramp), I don't feel gypped at all.

[Edited by kevm14 on 12-29-2000 at 02:52 AM]

 

I have just about every bar available and plan on slapping on better tires and struts. Everyone just needs a reference. My 90 Honda Accord Coupe EX 5-speed handles and corners like it's on rails, but my 89 Mazda 626 sedan DX 5-speed handles and corners like crap. I have 215/60/15R tires with the 97-99 GLE rims on the 626 which helped a lot, but the body roll is soooooo bad. I'm going to get the eibach sway bars front and rear for that car and lower the car with Ford Probe springs (every part is identical just about). Driving the three cars, the Maxima is great, the Accord is amazing, and the 626 is...well...there's a reason why this car wasn't so popular in 1989.

 

i don't know really what all the complaints are about..you test drove the max before you bought it so if you were looking for only handling in a vehicle you should not have bought the max. there are several cars in the max's price range that handle better than the max. im happy wiht the max's handling but i know that's not the best aspect of hte car. just my 2 cents

saber

 

It's all relative. BTW numbers are objective... they don't lie.. but part of the "good handling" feeling is how it makes the drivers feel. This maxima is a bad subject handling car. If you have ever driven a good handling car you will realize this. The maxima is not a bad handling car.. but to say it's good, that's just going a step too far.

Like Chad said, lateral Gs means absolutely nothing. Anycar with good tires can be made to pull g's, even a pinto. CFster also brough up a good point, depending on surface, that number will differ too.

The rear beam is very sophisticated for a beam.. but it is still a beam. On a stock maxima with no RSB, try taking a long bumpy sweeper, you don't need to fly through it, even at normal speed, the maxima has a very noticable yaw motion... very very unsettling.


Regarding the test drive comment. Please... you can not possibly learn enough about a car in 15-20 minutes of driving. You can possibly drive all the roads to figure this out. You can't tell if the car will rattle in 30 days, because well it take 30 days to start.

Max is a good car. But you know, for the price, nissan can do better.. Maximas aren't cheap anymore... well except the used ones.

-Shing

 

In alot of ways you guys who say the Max is not such a good handling car are kindof shooting yourselves in the foot. Let's face facts, the Max is a FWD car, already a compromise in the ultimate performance vehicle specification. Ideal is RWD. Not only that, the Max is a bunch cheaper then all the other cars you're comparing them too. WHen saying it is not a good car, I bet you all have in your minds relative comparisons to the Lexus IS300, the BMW 3 and 5 series, etc. But think about it, all those cars are RWD and they cost more. How about this example, BMW builds a car, prices it at $25 to 30 K. What do you get?? A 3 series with the base 1.8 engine. Compare that to a Max. Lexus?? Goto their Toyota parent and look at the Camry. Now when yu make your comparisons are you thinking of a 318is?? Don't think so, more like the 325, 328 etc.

The fact that most of you guys seems to be comparing the Max to RWD more expensive vehicles is one hell of a back handed compliment to the Max, because the mighty VQ with FWD is put in the same comparison with other RWDs that cost considerably more.
One other thing, the fact that we have to add and RSB and FSTB is not such a bad thing. Nissan probably had that in mind when building it, but decided against putting in production to keep the cost of the car low. That way, more people get to enjoy the Max, and most of those people are not enthusiasts, just people who want a really good value ina 4 door sedan. At least with BMW, it knows its customers are enthususiats, or people trying to look like enthusiasts (buying a 325is AUTO?!@#?),or customers who want the upscale image. The number of Max enthusiasts compared to regular max drivers must be very low in comparison. I live in the NYC area and there are Maximas everywhere, literally. But most of them don't have clear corners, RSBs, FSTBs etc. Where I work there are 4 other guys with the same Max as I have. I'm the only one who enhanced mine. I keep arguing with this colleague of mine about what a great car it is. He's like" It's a car, get you from A to B, that's it" He's missing the passion. I try to make him realize, but he's just not into cars, that's all.


Having said that, I think the Max is one of the best handling FWD drive cars out there. So good you can compare it to very good RWD cars.

Food for thought and my 2 cents

DW

 

ahh but you are wrong in the assumption that I am comparing the max to the 3 series and RWD car. Infact the immediate reference I have is my 10 year old CRX, my previous 92 Civic 4 door, the number of integras I've driven, Loren's miata, etc. And all those cars are cheaper than the max. and with the exception of the miata, they are all FWD cars.

You can get a 3 series for 25K, sure you get the 1.8 but engine is not even in the scope of this discussion... we are simply talked about handling.

After owning the Maxima for two years, I've come to realize that it's a mode of transportation.. a comfortable mode of transportation. "Passion" in a car does not fit the Maxima. I think one could be passionate abuot a miata, a MR spyder, a S2000, etc. Then again I guess there are different types of passion. Passion in ownership and passion in driving. I am passionate about owning the maxima... that is to say it's my car and I am protective of it etc. It's my car, and I do love it... but I am just not "passionate" about it. Passionate in driving... now that's a different story. When I am bored I pick up the keys to the CRX not Maxima. Because the driving exprience is just so much more pleasurable. That to me is being passionate about a car. Yeah the CRX is louder than the maxima, the crx is not as comfortable, the crx only seats two, the crx only has two doors etc. But when the windows are down, and I am going to 9000rpms in each gear, the sound, the feel, the joy, whipping the car around some deserted road... I can't get that from a maxima.

-Shing

 

Having a transverse mounted V6/transmission (needed for FWD) shifts a lot of weight to the far front end of the car. Putting 65% of the weight on the front wheels hurts the handling balance, and no mod can change this. You're not going to make a Maxima damce like a Miata or 3 Series BMW, no matter how may suspension/chassis/tire bandaids you put on it.

 

I only have the Eibach's, Tokico's and grippy Yoko's on my 96 SE, and with these mods, the Yaw is almost eliminated. I let my co worker/BMW 325 owner take my Max out for a spin. When he came back, he told me the car's ride was a little rough compared to his 325, but said the Max was a better handler in the curves.

In my opinion, I think the beam does gives the SE a poor ride quality, but I think it still holdes the curves very well. With a few mods, that yaw can almost be eliminated.

 

OK. So I was wrong about your comparison, but you still complimented the Max. You compared to cars that all weigh much less than the Max, the less weight, the better. Honda does make a Max equivalent, the Accord, or Acura TL, but you didn't compare them.

The fact that you compare the Max to a Miata is quite interesting, I may as well compare a Dodge Minivan to a Vette, right?? The Vette does handle better, I think

As for the scope of this argument, I don't think it was established as clearly as you suggest. We may all have had slightly different scopes. Mine was, if you're looking for a 4 door sedan that can hold four 6 foot adults in relative comfort, priced at around $25K, and handles well, the Max is hard to beat.

I'm not trying to knock your comparisons (I loved the CRX when I had one but I needed more than 2 seats), just pointing out how un-fair they are, but the fact that they are compared is a a compliment to the Max.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Shingles
[I]ahh but you are wrong in the assumption that I am comparing the max to the 3 series and RWD car. Infact the immediate reference I have is my 10 year old CRX, my previous 92 Civic 4 door, the number of integras I've driven, Loren's miata, etc. And all those cars are cheaper than the max. and with the exception of the miata, they are all FWD cars.

You can get a 3 series for 25K, sure you get the 1.8 but engine is not even in the scope of this discussion... we are simply talked about handling.

After owning the Maxima for two years, I've come to realize that it's a mode of transportation.. a comfortable mode of transportation. "Passion" in a car does not fit the Maxima. I think one could be passionate abuot a miata, a MR spyder, a S2000, etc. Then again I guess there are different types of passion. Passion in ownership and passion in driving. I am passionate about owning the maxima... that is to say it's my car and I am protective of it etc. It's my car, and I do love it... but I am just not "passionate" about it. Passionate in driving... now that's a different story. When I am bored I pick up the keys to the CRX not Maxima. Because the driving exprience is just so much more pleasurable. That to me is being passionate about a car. Yeah the CRX is louder than the maxima, the crx is not as comfortable, the crx only seats two, the crx only has two doors etc. But when the windows are down, and I am going to 9000rpms in each gear, the sound, the feel, the joy, whipping the car around some deserted road... I can't get that from a maxima.

-Shing

 

Ahh but my "comparison" is simply the fact that those are cars are the fun cars to drive.

If you want, sure I'll compare it to the TL and the Accord. The Accord subjectly is a better handling car and so is the TL. The suspension is tighter and the car doesn't roll or yaw. I thought of the "cheaper" cars because you thought we were comparing to more expensive cars. Notice I said subjectively.. because on paper they put out e same numbers as all cars in this class should. But the way a car handles has a lot to do with the way people/driver perceive it to handle.

I think my comparison to the miata is not as far fetched as a vette and mini van. My comparison was meant to broaden the discussion of this topic. Also to say that comparing the car to something is a compliment is not correct. I can compare the Maxima to the S class, but the only thing that it will point out is how poorly built the maxima is compared to the S class... it doesn't in anyway compliment the Maxima. I "compared" it to the CRX because I own both.. and if you want a fun car, the fact is the CRX is the car of choice. That's not a real comparison nor is it a compliment to the Max.

I think I am a "realist"... I see the maxima for what it is. To some, they see me as a Maxima hater... I don't hate Maximas. I like Maximas for what they are, a nice 4 door family sedan(with rattles here and there. ). I just happen to have a very open minded view about cars. Some here will bash anything with 4 wheels just because they think they are "passionate" about cars. A true car fan is one that can and does appreciate all cars that deserve it. (BTW this part is just rambling... not a personal attack.) I like the Mustangs, I like the Cameros, I like German cars, I like Hondas, I can appreciate toyotas, etc etc.

Ok, time to go wash the Max.

-Shing



[QUOTE]Originally posted by dwapenyi
[I]OK. So I was wrong about your comparison, but you still complimented the Max. You compared to cars that all weigh much less than the Max, the less weight, the better. Honda does make a Max equivalent, the Accord, or Acura TL, but you didn't compare them.

The fact that you compare the Max to a Miata is quite interesting, I may as well compare a Dodge Minivan to a Vette, right?? The Vette does handle better, I think

As for the scope of this argument, I don't think it was established as clearly as you suggest. We may all have had slightly different scopes. Mine was, if you're looking for a 4 door sedan that can hold four 6 foot adults in relative comfort, priced at around $25K, and handles well, the Max is hard to beat.

I'm not trying to knock your comparisons (I loved the CRX when I had one but I needed more than 2 seats), just pointing out how un-fair they are, but the fact that they are compared is a a compliment to the Max.

 

50/50 weight distribution isn't good for acceleration on a FWD vehicle since most of its weight will be shifted towards the backend making the front end light. Having RWD or FWD will not guarantee "excellent" handling. Having the perfect suspension tuning is the key. Weight distribution only comes into play when the car starts to understeer or oversteer at the limits. More weight over the front wheels will make the car understeer-which is safer and considered more "stable". More weight over the rear wheels will make the car oversteer at the limits.

 

My Max in it's current Handling form does really good. I've got front and rear strut towers, RSB, Koni fronts, KYB rears, ST springs, lightweight 16" wheels, and all-season performance Yokohamas. My car corners nearly as flat as my old 94 Z28 and the Max outhandles the Z28 by a notch or two.

The rear beam isn't near the hassle on a fwd car since it's just "riding" along. Live axles (RWD) and big hp and torque are fun and VERY dangerous if you don't know what you are doing. The Max's tail won't come around at the limit whereas the Z28 could bit you in the *** hard if you caught some bumps (never happened to me). Which brings me to another point. Keep the "grip" racing on the track. I think flying around corners and ramps is far more dangerous than street drag racing. A real track would allow you really see what your Max can do. I modded my Max's suspension because I wanted improved feel. I only explore maybe 70% of what it can really do.

The only thing I don't like about the Max is the steering. It is too slow and lacks any good "on center" feel.


Dave

 

Wrong. Its just the opposite. More weight in the rear, keeps the car FROM oversteering. Lets say you are on a track going WOT to the next turn. When youre close to the turn, you brake, therfore shifting weight to the front of the car, allowing the rear tires to oversteer just the right amount so you can make the turn. The rear is losing traction to for the controlled oversteer to happen. This is because of the fact that there is no weight to keep the rear tires planted. Your car continues to oversteer a tad, you slam on the gas, shifting the weight to the rear. The weight bieng distributed to the rear causes the tires to gain traction. You are not oversteering and the weight of the car is over the rear wheels.

The car understeers when the weight is to the rear. When youre making this same turn (in the situation), if you dont hit the brakes, the car will keep on its straight as you turn the steering wheel. When your accelerating the weight is in the rear. Due to this, the tires in the front have less weight then the rears do, giving them less traction. The tires will move yes, but they wont have traction, leaving you on a straight path.

Of course, if you have 50/50 weight distribution, you will take corners better.
More weigh to the rear: Understeer
Less weight to the rear: Oversteer

 

What?!?! Are you sure?

 

But from where I sit, it is the car I take out when I want to have some fun. This car replaced a 90 Continental, and my family's other car is a 91 Olds Custom Cruiser.
When we first got the car, I wasn't impressed with the off-camber grip (I say grip, not handling - handling involves suspension, as far as I'm concerned, and low-speed, off-camber cornering is ALL tires). It did do high speed off-ramps pretty well. It turns out the OEM Goodyear Eagle RS-A tires SUCKED! I know none of you are surpised at this, but I wasn't thrilled, because even at tirerack.com, they were over $100 each. Anyway, I decided on H rated Michelin Pilot XGT H4s and it does much better now. High speed handling has even improved a little.

The chassis dynamics at the limit are quite predictable. At 60mph in 3rd I can be drifting toward the outside of the corner, then let off the gas and it is almost scary how fast the fronts grip again. As far as transitional handling (slalom type stuff) is concerned, it is nearly IMPOSSIBLE to test this stuff on the street. All I have managed to do is run triple digit speeds on the highway, and take off-ramps and other such roads at much higher than the posted limit. The car seems fairly nimble, but it doesn't feel at home in the slalom. Maybe this is what you guys are talking about. I enjoy the acceleration and basically pulling Gs (what else can you do on the street?). And every once in a while, that one corner where I can literally steer the car with the throttle at 60mph. BTW, I believe this ability is due to the STB - I bet on that same corner, with a RSB, I could get the tail to swing around on me. This is why I'm probably gonna leave that off the upgrades list.

[Edited by kevm14 on 12-30-2000 at 01:07 AM]

 

Nice plates. From what I read, I thought that the more weight you put on that tire, the more gripe it will produce. But there is a point to where the tire can't take it anymore ( at the limits )and it will either oversteer or understeer and will skid unless something is done. So what I'm thinking is that the more weight over the front wheels, the likely chance it will understeer at the limits.

 

It sounds right, doesnt it? I checked the official handbook.

 

"Nice plates. From what I read, I thought that the more weight you put on that tire, the more gripe it will produce. But there is a point to where the tire can't take it anymore ( at the limits )and it will either oversteer or understeer and will skid unless something is done. So what I'm thinking is that the more weight over the front wheels, the likely chance it will understeer at the limits."

I think the grip on the tire vs the weight on the tire plotted on a chart would produce a bell curve. I know for sure, however, that as weight increases, grip increases, but not as much as the weight. So your overall traction increases with weight, but your specific traction per pound decreases.

What this means for driving is, when you're oversteering in any car (presumably not power-on oversteer [see F-Body V8 for more info ]), the way to gain traction in the rear is to promote rearward weight transfer, aka hit the gas. This works in a RWD or FWD. The opposite is also true, obviously. Like I said, I can be cornering at full potential of the tires with the gas floored and decide that no amount of steering input is gonna keep the car off the side of the road. So what do I do? Let off at like 4 grand. The front end bites as the rear becomes lighter and the car will rotate, thus pulling more lateral Gs. I showed a friend what I meant - I took him out and went around the corner and started drifting to the outside. I then let off the gas, and <I>didn't</I> change my steering wheel angle. The car actually started heading for the INSIDE of the corner! Obviously if I had more precisely let off the gas, I could have made it go in the perfect direction. The other thing I find myself doing in those real world situations (as opposed to a theoretical discussion) is pumping the pedal to achieve equalibrium. Take my Maxima with its no ABS. It is not second nature to perform a threshold stop in an emergency situation. I pump the brakes instead. Same with the throttle-steering. I can't immediately choose the correct throttle position, so I pump the gas (albeit slowly) to get me around the corner. It works quite well, and predictably.
All this changes on wet though...The actual driving dynamics don't change much, but the grip does, a lot. So before where I could plow into a corner with all the car has and let off the gas to save me from flying off the road, on wet, I'd fly off the road no matter what. I don't recommend doing any performance driving on wet, though with the maxima, it is pretty easy. It's not controlling the direction of the car that you will have a problem with, it's not having enough ultimate grip. I may be able to get the front end pointed the right way in a slippery corner with the gas, brake, and steering wheel, but depending on my entry speed, I might just slide off the road facing that direction anyway.
Snow driving is the same thing. If the rear end starts to slide, gas it a little and counter steer. Try it in a snowy parking lot sometime.
But anyway, be careful out there guys.

[Edited by kevm14 on 12-30-2000 at 02:26 PM]