Today I swapped out the front AGX struts for Tokico Blues. I still got the AGXs for the rear. Combination is awesome. The ride up front is so much better. I'm glad I made the switch. Thanks to Tom(forgot your handle)for his original thread about the AGXs to Tokicos swap. I'm very pleased with the result.
I have the rear AGXs on 4 right now. Should I lower the setting, leave it at 4, or raise it?
I have the rear AGXs on 4 right now. Should I lower the setting, leave it at 4, or raise it?
Senior Member
Quote:
Originally posted by Cumalot
Today I swapped out the front AGX struts for Tokico Blues. I still got the AGXs for the rear. Combination is awesome. The ride up front is so much better. I'm glad I made the switch. Thanks to Tom(forgot your handle)for his original thread about the AGXs to Tokicos swap. I'm very pleased with the result.
I have the rear AGXs on 4 right now. Should I lower the setting, leave it at 4, or raise it?
Why not try all the settings and see?Originally posted by Cumalot
Today I swapped out the front AGX struts for Tokico Blues. I still got the AGXs for the rear. Combination is awesome. The ride up front is so much better. I'm glad I made the switch. Thanks to Tom(forgot your handle)for his original thread about the AGXs to Tokicos swap. I'm very pleased with the result.
I have the rear AGXs on 4 right now. Should I lower the setting, leave it at 4, or raise it?
Some people like 6, some like 4, some like it bouncy so they put it on 2.
Member who somehow became The President of The SE-L Club
Welcome to the Tokico side!
Try running the rear AGX on 1 and drive it down the highway. It rides like a caddy set like that, yet remains flat in the turns. Are you using the KYB bump stops or trimmed OEM's?
drewm - Believe it or not, the lower the setting on the AGX's the less bounce and much better ride. The front AGX's would be perfect if they were valved a bit softer set on 1. Actually what you call bounce isn't really bounce at all. It's the inability of the strut to absorb the bump when it's set to firm. The impact pushes the car up, then pulls it back down again. (there's your bounce) With the lower setting, the shock begins to absorb the bump and not transmit or push the car up. Only the wheel moves up and down over the bumps and the car remains flat on the road. (no bounce)
The more I drive with the Tokico/AGX setup the more I absolutely love my car. The car feels planted on the road yet it's so smooth on the highway it almost rides like a caddy & handles excellent.
Now you guys have gotten me thinking. My Toks are shot, there's no question. My new plan is new Toks up front woth GR-2s in the rear. This is with H&R springs, FSTB and "not-motivational-but-just-as-good-for-half-the-price" rear shock mounts.
Member who somehow became The President of The SE-L Club
Ben, go with GR2 or AGX's in the rear. Your better choice would be the AGX because you can tweak them to your liking.
"not-motivational-but-just-as-good-for-half-the-price"
"not-motivational-but-just-as-good-for-half-the-price"
Quote:
Originally posted by njmaxseltd
Ben, go with GR2 or AGX's in the rear. Your better choice would be the AGX because you can tweak them to your liking.
"not-motivational-but-just-as-good-for-half-the-price"
I probably will, I just need to see how much $$ I will have in the next few weeks.Originally posted by njmaxseltd
Ben, go with GR2 or AGX's in the rear. Your better choice would be the AGX because you can tweak them to your liking.
"not-motivational-but-just-as-good-for-half-the-price"
I designed and built my own rear shock mounts because Motivational's prices are insane. I even sold a handful of them to ORG members. Unfortuantely, I don't have the time to mass produce them right now...
Senior Member
Quote:
Originally posted by njmaxseltd
drewm - Believe it or not, the lower the setting on the AGX's the less bounce and much better ride. The front AGX's would be perfect if they were valved a bit softer set on 1. Actually what you call bounce isn't really bounce at all. It's the inability of the strut to absorb the bump when it's set to firm. The impact pushes the car up, then pulls it back down again. (there's your bounce) With the lower setting, the shock begins to absorb the bump and not transmit or push the car up. Only the wheel moves up and down over the bumps and the car remains flat on the road. (no bounce)
At least with Konis, I had the problem of having a 2nd and 3rd rebound bounce when I had passengers in my backseat on my lowest setting, it felt horrible. And that bounce is what kills you when you're trying to hold a corner and your camber is changing drastically due to the suspension not having it's 2nd and 3rd bounce dampened, at least in the front.Originally posted by njmaxseltd
drewm - Believe it or not, the lower the setting on the AGX's the less bounce and much better ride. The front AGX's would be perfect if they were valved a bit softer set on 1. Actually what you call bounce isn't really bounce at all. It's the inability of the strut to absorb the bump when it's set to firm. The impact pushes the car up, then pulls it back down again. (there's your bounce) With the lower setting, the shock begins to absorb the bump and not transmit or push the car up. Only the wheel moves up and down over the bumps and the car remains flat on the road. (no bounce)
Ah, maybe I'm just performance oriented, and you're more ride comfort oriented. I bet that's where our difference of opinion comes from.
But I still believe that people should definately try out all their settings, and see what feels the best for them. I always find it funny that people seem to be "afraid" to change settings and try them out for themselves. That's what all of us on this forum are here for, to expirement with new things, aftermarket parts, different settings, suspension tuning. Nobody should ever be afraid to tinker, they might just end up liking their new result.
Member who somehow became The President of The SE-L Club
Quote:
Originally posted by drewm
Ah, maybe I'm just performance oriented, and you're more ride comfort oriented. I bet that's where our difference of opinion comes from.
Originally posted by drewm
Ah, maybe I'm just performance oriented, and you're more ride comfort oriented. I bet that's where our difference of opinion comes from.
I'm starting to show my age! 
Quote:
But I still believe that people should definately try out all their settings, and see what feels the best for them. I always find it funny that people seem to be "afraid" to change settings and try them out for themselves. That's what all of us on this forum are here for, to expirement with new things, aftermarket parts, different settings, suspension tuning. Nobody should ever be afraid to tinker, they might just end up liking their new result.
But I still believe that people should definately try out all their settings, and see what feels the best for them. I always find it funny that people seem to be "afraid" to change settings and try them out for themselves. That's what all of us on this forum are here for, to expirement with new things, aftermarket parts, different settings, suspension tuning. Nobody should ever be afraid to tinker, they might just end up liking their new result.
Very well said, and I couldn't agree with that statement more. Thats what modding is all about. To have your car set up the way you like it in both performance and looks.
I'm using trimmed OEM bump stops. I think I'm showing my age too. 
Btw, sometimes when I go over a bump, I hear this squeaking sound coming from the front suspension. Sounded like the springs?
Btw, sometimes when I go over a bump, I hear this squeaking sound coming from the front suspension. Sounded like the springs?
Drew and Tom...Just got a visit from the UPS man....the Tok Illuminas are in. I ended up getting all four. I think I am getting em on Friday. Just can't wait to get em on. Hope the local dealership will have some dust boots for me, cause there is no way I have time to order some KYB's by Friday
Senior Member
Don't worry about the time it takes to get the KYB (TRW) dust boots. The units KYB sells are actually repackaged TRW items which are available at the local auto parts store.
The KYB part numbers are 103 front, and 108 rear.
The TRW part numbers are 14103 front, and 14108 rear.
Creative on KYB's part, huh?
I went to Advance Auto Parts and ordered those TRW part numbers. The fronts are for a 95' mustang, the rear for a 95 miata.
For whatever reason, the front (14103) was labeled as a front end bushing, and the rear was labeled as a front end control arm bushing. This was just freakish... since I ordered them anyway, and they came the next day and were the correct items. They are now on the car and working perfect. It was someone else who discovered this... and even posted pictures of the KYB and TRW parts. They were identical.
The fronts (TRW #14103) cost $14.89 each.
The rears (TRW #14108) cost $14.99 each.
I've already installed them on the car, and they fit perfect.
Most part stores can have them the very next day if they are not in stock. I know Advance makes it a policy.
Don't forget to remove the top part of the stock boot that is usually broken off in it's mount.
Good Luck!
The KYB part numbers are 103 front, and 108 rear.
The TRW part numbers are 14103 front, and 14108 rear.
Creative on KYB's part, huh?
I went to Advance Auto Parts and ordered those TRW part numbers. The fronts are for a 95' mustang, the rear for a 95 miata.
For whatever reason, the front (14103) was labeled as a front end bushing, and the rear was labeled as a front end control arm bushing. This was just freakish... since I ordered them anyway, and they came the next day and were the correct items. They are now on the car and working perfect. It was someone else who discovered this... and even posted pictures of the KYB and TRW parts. They were identical.
The fronts (TRW #14103) cost $14.89 each.
The rears (TRW #14108) cost $14.99 each.
I've already installed them on the car, and they fit perfect.
Most part stores can have them the very next day if they are not in stock. I know Advance makes it a policy.
Don't forget to remove the top part of the stock boot that is usually broken off in it's mount.
Good Luck!
Senior Member
this is the first time i have heard about mixing the Tokicos and the AGX...anyone have the link to the original thread about this??? I would think that using different struts wouldn't be great for performance and perhaps unsafe...
Quote:
Originally posted by n2oMike
Don't worry about the time it takes to get the KYB (TRW) dust boots. The units KYB sells are actually repackaged TRW items which are available at the local auto parts store.
The KYB part numbers are 103 front, and 108 rear.
The TRW part numbers are 14103 front, and 14108 rear.
Creative on KYB's part, huh?
I went to Advance Auto Parts and ordered those TRW part numbers. The fronts are for a 95' mustang, the rear for a 95 miata.
For whatever reason, the front (14103) was labeled as a front end bushing, and the rear was labeled as a front end control arm bushing. This was just freakish... since I ordered them anyway, and they came the next day and were the correct items. They are now on the car and working perfect. It was someone else who discovered this... and even posted pictures of the KYB and TRW parts. They were identical.
The fronts (TRW #14103) cost $14.89 each.
The rears (TRW #14108) cost $14.99 each.
I've already installed them on the car, and they fit perfect.
Most part stores can have them the very next day if they are not in stock. I know Advance makes it a policy.
Don't forget to remove the top part of the stock boot that is usually broken off in it's mount.
Good Luck!
Oh man Thanks for the hookup. Are we 100% sure these are the same boots? I will order these today...Do the TRW's have a shortend bumpstop like the KYB's? I can't wait to see the guys face when I tell him I want parts for a mustang and a miataOriginally posted by n2oMike
Don't worry about the time it takes to get the KYB (TRW) dust boots. The units KYB sells are actually repackaged TRW items which are available at the local auto parts store.
The KYB part numbers are 103 front, and 108 rear.
The TRW part numbers are 14103 front, and 14108 rear.
Creative on KYB's part, huh?
I went to Advance Auto Parts and ordered those TRW part numbers. The fronts are for a 95' mustang, the rear for a 95 miata.
For whatever reason, the front (14103) was labeled as a front end bushing, and the rear was labeled as a front end control arm bushing. This was just freakish... since I ordered them anyway, and they came the next day and were the correct items. They are now on the car and working perfect. It was someone else who discovered this... and even posted pictures of the KYB and TRW parts. They were identical.
The fronts (TRW #14103) cost $14.89 each.
The rears (TRW #14108) cost $14.99 each.
I've already installed them on the car, and they fit perfect.
Most part stores can have them the very next day if they are not in stock. I know Advance makes it a policy.
Don't forget to remove the top part of the stock boot that is usually broken off in it's mount.
Good Luck!
Senior Member
They are the exact same part. They are identical in every way. The item KYB sells is manufactured by TRW. (a maker of all sorts of suspension and automotive components)
KYB buys the boots from TRW in bulk and re-sells them under the KYB name.
Good Luck!
KYB buys the boots from TRW in bulk and re-sells them under the KYB name.
Good Luck!
Member who somehow became The President of The SE-L Club
I got my KYB "strut bumpers" at a local Speed Shop. They had them the next day, $15 each.
MaxWolf, which springs are you coupling the Llluminas with? We want a full detailed report when your done!
luckee2bhere - There's nothing wrong with mixing shocks. It's a custom suspension set up, otherwise known as modifying. Here's how I came up with the idea of Tokico/AGX. The front AGX's seem to harsh when coupled with sport springs, (H&R's) yet the rear always felt very good. Rear Tokico Blues are too soft to be coupled with sport springs, yet the fronts seem good. So you take a nice smooth Tokico Blues and put them up front, and in the rear, toss in the firmer AGX's to keep the beam suspension under control. One nice thing about using AGX's in the rear is that they are adjustable and you can tweak them to your liking. Compensate for a load in your car by firming them up or make them nice and soft for highway crusing. The results are awsome. You get a very smooth ride with a bit better handling and no more 4x4 look! (H&R Drop) So far everybody who's been in my car says the same thing... "You'd never know it's been lowered by the way it rides." I think there's been about 4 of us on here now that have gone with this combo and so far everybody likes it. This combo seems to maintain the Maxima's smooth luxury sport sedan ride while getting rid of the horrable wheel gap. The only springs this shock combo has been tried on are H&R's. H&R's ride the best out of all the sport lowering springs for our cars.
MaxWolf, which springs are you coupling the Llluminas with? We want a full detailed report when your done!
luckee2bhere - There's nothing wrong with mixing shocks. It's a custom suspension set up, otherwise known as modifying. Here's how I came up with the idea of Tokico/AGX. The front AGX's seem to harsh when coupled with sport springs, (H&R's) yet the rear always felt very good. Rear Tokico Blues are too soft to be coupled with sport springs, yet the fronts seem good. So you take a nice smooth Tokico Blues and put them up front, and in the rear, toss in the firmer AGX's to keep the beam suspension under control. One nice thing about using AGX's in the rear is that they are adjustable and you can tweak them to your liking. Compensate for a load in your car by firming them up or make them nice and soft for highway crusing. The results are awsome. You get a very smooth ride with a bit better handling and no more 4x4 look! (H&R Drop) So far everybody who's been in my car says the same thing... "You'd never know it's been lowered by the way it rides." I think there's been about 4 of us on here now that have gone with this combo and so far everybody likes it. This combo seems to maintain the Maxima's smooth luxury sport sedan ride while getting rid of the horrable wheel gap. The only springs this shock combo has been tried on are H&R's. H&R's ride the best out of all the sport lowering springs for our cars.
H&R and Illumina combo....
Thanx a ton for the info N20Mike...I ordered some from Advanced Auto..they are pulling em out of New York, and should be here by noon tommorow. I have had to replan my install, I won't be able to do it Friday (tommorow), due to not having the boots till the afternoon. I bought a tourqe wrench last weekend..thinking about tackling it myself.
tom - oh yeah you'll be one of the first to know
Thanx a ton for the info N20Mike...I ordered some from Advanced Auto..they are pulling em out of New York, and should be here by noon tommorow. I have had to replan my install, I won't be able to do it Friday (tommorow), due to not having the boots till the afternoon. I bought a tourqe wrench last weekend..thinking about tackling it myself.
tom - oh yeah you'll be one of the first to know
Member who somehow became The President of The SE-L Club
Quote:
Originally posted by MaxWolf
H&R and Illumina combo....
tom - oh yeah you'll be one of the first to know
SWEET! Originally posted by MaxWolf
H&R and Illumina combo....
tom - oh yeah you'll be one of the first to know
Member who somehow became The President of The SE-L Club
MaxWolf - I forgot one thing......
:
You better post some pics of the Lllumina's my friend!
:You better post some pics of the Lllumina's my friend!
Senior Member
Quote:
Originally posted by njmaxseltd
luckee2bhere - There's nothing wrong with mixing shocks. It's a custom suspension set up, otherwise known as modifying. Here's how I came up with the idea of Tokico/AGX. The front AGX's seem to harsh when coupled with sport springs, (H&R's) yet the rear always felt very good. Rear Tokico Blues are too soft to be coupled with sport springs, yet the fronts seem good. So you take a nice smooth Tokico Blues and put them up front, and in the rear, toss in the firmer AGX's to keep the beam suspension under control. One nice thing about using AGX's in the rear is that they are adjustable and you can tweak them to your liking. Compensate for a load in your car by firming them up or make them nice and soft for highway crusing. The results are awsome. You get a very smooth ride with a bit better handling and no more 4x4 look! (H&R Drop) So far everybody who's been in my car says the same thing... "You'd never know it's been lowered by the way it rides." I think there's been about 4 of us on here now that have gone with this combo and so far everybody likes it. This combo seems to maintain the Maxima's smooth luxury sport sedan ride while getting rid of the horrable wheel gap. The only springs this shock combo has been tried on are H&R's. H&R's ride the best out of all the sport lowering springs for our cars.
Sounds like you guys went with this setup for looks/comfort...I dont really care about the comfort as much as performance/looks. Right now I am think I am going to choose from sprints and eibach. "a bit better handling" Does that mean this setup doesnt lead to great handling???Originally posted by njmaxseltd
luckee2bhere - There's nothing wrong with mixing shocks. It's a custom suspension set up, otherwise known as modifying. Here's how I came up with the idea of Tokico/AGX. The front AGX's seem to harsh when coupled with sport springs, (H&R's) yet the rear always felt very good. Rear Tokico Blues are too soft to be coupled with sport springs, yet the fronts seem good. So you take a nice smooth Tokico Blues and put them up front, and in the rear, toss in the firmer AGX's to keep the beam suspension under control. One nice thing about using AGX's in the rear is that they are adjustable and you can tweak them to your liking. Compensate for a load in your car by firming them up or make them nice and soft for highway crusing. The results are awsome. You get a very smooth ride with a bit better handling and no more 4x4 look! (H&R Drop) So far everybody who's been in my car says the same thing... "You'd never know it's been lowered by the way it rides." I think there's been about 4 of us on here now that have gone with this combo and so far everybody likes it. This combo seems to maintain the Maxima's smooth luxury sport sedan ride while getting rid of the horrable wheel gap. The only springs this shock combo has been tried on are H&R's. H&R's ride the best out of all the sport lowering springs for our cars.
general concensus from what I have read is that Sprints are for looks, not really performance..whereas Eibachs do sit a lil higher, but could outperform the sprints. I have riden in a car with sprints...it was a lil rough, plus he was a crazy driver
and the handling was out of this world !!!! paired with "brand new" KYB AGX and sticky Michellin tires + RSB and FSTB
it was an amazing combo - to bad after few months either Sprints lost their spring characteristics or the KYB did't perform as brand new ones - the ride become very untoreable and rough - especially when going over those highway expansions/joints
now I'm on H&R's - i like them comfort wise , but the tenacious grip is gone.....
looking for a place that sells front Tokico's only - anybody have a link or site please respond
Nick
it was an amazing combo - to bad after few months either Sprints lost their spring characteristics or the KYB did't perform as brand new ones - the ride become very untoreable and rough - especially when going over those highway expansions/joints
now I'm on H&R's - i like them comfort wise , but the tenacious grip is gone.....
looking for a place that sells front Tokico's only - anybody have a link or site please respond
Nick
yup, www.southwestautoworks.com might as well pair em up with Tok Illumina Shocks..not too much more..and ajustable
Member who somehow became The President of The SE-L Club
Quote:
Originally posted by luckee2bhere
Sounds like you guys went with this setup for looks/comfort...I dont really care about the comfort as much as performance/looks. Right now I am think I am going to choose from sprints and eibach. "a bit better handling" Does that mean this setup doesnt lead to great handling???
Define "great handling"?Originally posted by luckee2bhere
Sounds like you guys went with this setup for looks/comfort...I dont really care about the comfort as much as performance/looks. Right now I am think I am going to choose from sprints and eibach. "a bit better handling" Does that mean this setup doesnt lead to great handling???
My SE always handled great with simple bolt on upgrades like aftermarket struts/shocks/FSTB/RSB and a set of very sticky Dunlop SP8000 17" Tires.
Your tires are the last link and most important part of keeping your car glued to the road. You can have the best suspension setup money can buy, but if the rubber your riding on can't hold onto the road, your suspension wount do you any good.
Now that I'm riding on H&R sport springs coupled with a clever mixing of dampers, I've improved the handling even more, but maintained the ride comfort. Yes, this setup handles great.
There are many more options to choose from. Eibach springs will probably handle better then H&R's. Coilovers will blow them both away. It's all up to what you want from your car. Thats what modding is all about.
Senior Member
Quote:
Originally posted by njmaxseltd
Define "great handling"?
My SE always handled great with simple bolt on upgrades like aftermarket struts/shocks/FSTB/RSB and a set of very sticky Dunlop SP8000 17" Tires.
Your tires are the last link and most important part of keeping your car glued to the road. You can have the best suspension setup money can buy, but if the rubber your riding on can't hold onto the road, your suspension wount do you any good.
Now that I'm riding on H&R sport springs coupled with a clever mixing of dampers, I've improved the handling even more, but maintained the ride comfort. Yes, this setup handles great.
There are many more options to choose from. Eibach springs will probably handle better then H&R's. Coilovers will blow them both away. It's all up to what you want from your car. Thats what modding is all about.
Originally posted by njmaxseltd
Define "great handling"?
My SE always handled great with simple bolt on upgrades like aftermarket struts/shocks/FSTB/RSB and a set of very sticky Dunlop SP8000 17" Tires.
Your tires are the last link and most important part of keeping your car glued to the road. You can have the best suspension setup money can buy, but if the rubber your riding on can't hold onto the road, your suspension wount do you any good.
Now that I'm riding on H&R sport springs coupled with a clever mixing of dampers, I've improved the handling even more, but maintained the ride comfort. Yes, this setup handles great.
There are many more options to choose from. Eibach springs will probably handle better then H&R's. Coilovers will blow them both away. It's all up to what you want from your car. Thats what modding is all about.
The science of suspension design is quite complicated. It takes a number of factors to create the perfect handling suspension, camber, caster, tire grip, spring rate, dampener settings, suspension travel and a whole slew of others.
And that's only for one type of track surface, factor in smooth, bumpy, rutty, slow track, fast track, sharp corners, smooth corners, and you've got one hell of a mix.
You'd probably be better off creating what feels the best for you.
Speaking of suspension, I just got a ride with mingo and his JIC FLT-A2s. A very intense suspension I must say. It felt slightly harser than my Eibach/Koni setup. Handling couldn't quite be measured, because we weren't anywhere near testing it, but I do like it. But about my thoughts of switching to JICs.... I'll hold off for a while, I'm very content with how mine is right now.
Senior Member
Quote:
Originally posted by njmaxseltd
Define "great handling"?
My SE always handled great with simple bolt on upgrades like aftermarket struts/shocks/FSTB/RSB and a set of very sticky Dunlop SP8000 17" Tires.
Your tires are the last link and most important part of keeping your car glued to the road. You can have the best suspension setup money can buy, but if the rubber your riding on can't hold onto the road, your suspension wount do you any good.
There are many more options to choose from. Eibach springs will probably handle better then H&R's. Coilovers will blow them both away. It's all up to what you want from your car. Thats what modding is all about.
i think i have the tires part covered. i love mine. i really have only been in one lowered maxima. for about 2 mins and we drove in a straight line. so i am really confused as to what i want out of my suspension. besides that Max I have been in Civic SIs and GS-Rs that had coilovers and I was AMAZED. I know that starting out with a Maxima I probably couldnt have that kind of handling but I think that I want to get as close as possible without going crazy if that makes any sense at all.Originally posted by njmaxseltd
Define "great handling"?
My SE always handled great with simple bolt on upgrades like aftermarket struts/shocks/FSTB/RSB and a set of very sticky Dunlop SP8000 17" Tires.
Your tires are the last link and most important part of keeping your car glued to the road. You can have the best suspension setup money can buy, but if the rubber your riding on can't hold onto the road, your suspension wount do you any good.
There are many more options to choose from. Eibach springs will probably handle better then H&R's. Coilovers will blow them both away. It's all up to what you want from your car. Thats what modding is all about.
Quote:
Originally posted by drewm
Speaking of suspension, I just got a ride with mingo and his JIC FLT-A2s. A very intense suspension I must say. It felt slightly harser than my Eibach/Koni setup. Handling couldn't quite be measured, because we weren't anywhere near testing it, but I do like it. But about my thoughts of switching to JICs.... I'll hold off for a while, I'm very content with how mine is right now.
JICs coilovers?Originally posted by drewm
Speaking of suspension, I just got a ride with mingo and his JIC FLT-A2s. A very intense suspension I must say. It felt slightly harser than my Eibach/Koni setup. Handling couldn't quite be measured, because we weren't anywhere near testing it, but I do like it. But about my thoughts of switching to JICs.... I'll hold off for a while, I'm very content with how mine is right now.
BASED on what I have learned from you guys so far I am thinking that Eibachs might be best suited for me....
For a long time I was going to get the B&Gs because I heard about their 1.6+" drop and that they rode pretty smoothly...any opinions from you guys on those springs?
Quote:
Originally posted by MaxWolf
ya ya...there comming...I can get you a pic of em in their boxes for now...soon my friend...soon
What did you pay if you don't mind me asking? $425-$450 seems to be the norm....Originally posted by MaxWolf
ya ya...there comming...I can get you a pic of em in their boxes for now...soon my friend...soon