New idea, for low and high end power
#42
Originally Posted by kevlo911
the reason HAI makes u lose low end power is because, when u start ALOT of air is being pushed back from the radiator and goes directly to the filter so it sucks in hot air and hot air = less hp. vice versa for CAI
and the reason for CAI not having high end is because *i think* the pipes are long, so the cool air has further to travel and hte HAI is shorts so it sucks in teh cool air and gets it to the engine faster
and the reason for CAI not having high end is because *i think* the pipes are long, so the cool air has further to travel and hte HAI is shorts so it sucks in teh cool air and gets it to the engine faster
#45
i'm not sure if u r saying the same thing but how bout we have both installed, one pipe that splits, to hybrid setup and to CAI and just have it open all the time. It will bring in cooler air from below and hot air from the engine bay. That type of setup may work real good.
#46
Not open all the time...but have a valve that will switch between the two. The valve could be hooked up to an RPM switch.
The question of the day: Are the gains worth any of this? Are they there at all? The problem is that these gains are so small that it's difficult at best to test for them.
IMHO, I doubt there is much difference between either setup. I can't find dynos that show it.
The question of the day: Are the gains worth any of this? Are they there at all? The problem is that these gains are so small that it's difficult at best to test for them.
IMHO, I doubt there is much difference between either setup. I can't find dynos that show it.
#47
OK OK OK OK..... everyone keeps talkin about this again and pointing out the same specs over and over and why we are doing this and that.
My 2pennies are this:
Once SOMEONE can make this switch contraption to switch between them with 'Reliability' and You have a Drawing, a Photoshop Of how this works , THEN all of you will be happy. THat switch and its reliability everyday use Is the MAIN concern , Without that where are you? Has anyone even gotten anydrawings or Switch ideas to try this.
or are we still at first base.?
My 2pennies are this:
Once SOMEONE can make this switch contraption to switch between them with 'Reliability' and You have a Drawing, a Photoshop Of how this works , THEN all of you will be happy. THat switch and its reliability everyday use Is the MAIN concern , Without that where are you? Has anyone even gotten anydrawings or Switch ideas to try this.
or are we still at first base.?
#48
God this debate is so played. Nonetheless I will add to it.
My theory is this...my K&N/Frankencar does seem to lose a little bit of low end. This is most likely due to the fact that it is sucking hot air from under the hood. I do not buy the whole pressurization thing, because I don't think you are getting that much air coming in there at low speed. The stock intake does have the scoop, but the scoop isn't really out where it's getting air rammed into it...maybe a little, but not enough to make a difference after all the piping and resonators. Throttle response with the hybrid is *clearly* better that the stock intake. Rev matching is much simpler as throttle blips are quicker...probably due to a just generally freer flowing intake.
The HAI gives you gains at significant speed. This, I beleive, is because by the time you're doing 50+ mph there is enough cool air getting blasted under the hood so that you have a less restrictive intake sucking more or less the same temperature air that it would get with the stock intake. There is no missing the improved acceleration from 65-110mph with the hybrid.
The problem is that you can't really prove this on a dyno since you're not getting the same airflow that you would get on the road. The results will definitely be different than "real world" because I think the HAI relies on air getting under the hood at speed to make power.
My theory is this...my K&N/Frankencar does seem to lose a little bit of low end. This is most likely due to the fact that it is sucking hot air from under the hood. I do not buy the whole pressurization thing, because I don't think you are getting that much air coming in there at low speed. The stock intake does have the scoop, but the scoop isn't really out where it's getting air rammed into it...maybe a little, but not enough to make a difference after all the piping and resonators. Throttle response with the hybrid is *clearly* better that the stock intake. Rev matching is much simpler as throttle blips are quicker...probably due to a just generally freer flowing intake.
The HAI gives you gains at significant speed. This, I beleive, is because by the time you're doing 50+ mph there is enough cool air getting blasted under the hood so that you have a less restrictive intake sucking more or less the same temperature air that it would get with the stock intake. There is no missing the improved acceleration from 65-110mph with the hybrid.
The problem is that you can't really prove this on a dyno since you're not getting the same airflow that you would get on the road. The results will definitely be different than "real world" because I think the HAI relies on air getting under the hood at speed to make power.
#49
OH and another thing. You guys are ridiculous talking about this switch idea. I mean I guess it would be a fun project, but you're talking about an elaborate setup for very, very small gains. The difference with the intakes isn't huge enough to make it worth this whole crazy project (to me). Besides that, we go through all this trouble buying frankencars and all that to create good, smooth airflow into the intake. This switch would have to allow you to go back and forth with minimal disruption to airflow while switching, and in position...otherwise you just lost horsepower. No way is this idea ever going to seriously work. The only thing I could see making sense would be to do some kind of OSCAI/Frankencar where both intake were open at the same time.
#50
Sorry sorry sorry...one more...
It seems to me like another good way to solve all this would be a CAI with oversized piping made out of a material that doesn't get hot and is extremely smooth on the inside. Make it out of carbon fiber or something so that it doesn't get hot and heat the air inside up. Make it super smooth to allow air to flow over the inside surface of the intake as easily as possible. Make it oversized and keep bends to an absolute minimum to make it as easy as possible for the engine to suck the air in.
Ideally you could even try to have it get some air rammed into it OSCAI style...although that would take a lot more bending...but it might be worth it.
It seems to me like another good way to solve all this would be a CAI with oversized piping made out of a material that doesn't get hot and is extremely smooth on the inside. Make it out of carbon fiber or something so that it doesn't get hot and heat the air inside up. Make it super smooth to allow air to flow over the inside surface of the intake as easily as possible. Make it oversized and keep bends to an absolute minimum to make it as easy as possible for the engine to suck the air in.
Ideally you could even try to have it get some air rammed into it OSCAI style...although that would take a lot more bending...but it might be worth it.
#52
Originally Posted by endus
God this debate is so played. Nonetheless I will add to it.
My theory is this...my K&N/Frankencar does seem to lose a little bit of low end. This is most likely due to the fact that it is sucking hot air from under the hood. I do not buy the whole pressurization thing, because I don't think you are getting that much air coming in there at low speed. The stock intake does have the scoop, but the scoop isn't really out where it's getting air rammed into it...maybe a little, but not enough to make a difference after all the piping and resonators. Throttle response with the hybrid is *clearly* better that the stock intake. Rev matching is much simpler as throttle blips are quicker...probably due to a just generally freer flowing intake.
The HAI gives you gains at significant speed. This, I beleive, is because by the time you're doing 50+ mph there is enough cool air getting blasted under the hood so that you have a less restrictive intake sucking more or less the same temperature air that it would get with the stock intake. There is no missing the improved acceleration from 65-110mph with the hybrid.
The problem is that you can't really prove this on a dyno since you're not getting the same airflow that you would get on the road. The results will definitely be different than "real world" because I think the HAI relies on air getting under the hood at speed to make power.
My theory is this...my K&N/Frankencar does seem to lose a little bit of low end. This is most likely due to the fact that it is sucking hot air from under the hood. I do not buy the whole pressurization thing, because I don't think you are getting that much air coming in there at low speed. The stock intake does have the scoop, but the scoop isn't really out where it's getting air rammed into it...maybe a little, but not enough to make a difference after all the piping and resonators. Throttle response with the hybrid is *clearly* better that the stock intake. Rev matching is much simpler as throttle blips are quicker...probably due to a just generally freer flowing intake.
The HAI gives you gains at significant speed. This, I beleive, is because by the time you're doing 50+ mph there is enough cool air getting blasted under the hood so that you have a less restrictive intake sucking more or less the same temperature air that it would get with the stock intake. There is no missing the improved acceleration from 65-110mph with the hybrid.
The problem is that you can't really prove this on a dyno since you're not getting the same airflow that you would get on the road. The results will definitely be different than "real world" because I think the HAI relies on air getting under the hood at speed to make power.
http://www.users.bigpond.com/pgscott...resonator.html
http://www.users.bigpond.com/pgscott...rsAcoustic.htm
Midpipe designed intakes only give you gains above 4900 rpm (Paste each of these into a new WORD document, then print each one out, put them over each other and hold it up to a light.)
It has nothing to do with what speed you are going, whether your in first gear or 5th gear it only matters what RPM you are running whether you are getting gains.
Regarding your last response, have you ever seen a car dynoed? They prop the hood up and blow a huge fan on the engine. This is going to give you a lot more direct air flow to your filter than your hood closed and air having to come from underneath your car, up to the top of your engine bay where your air filter is. If anything the dyno gives HAI intakes an advantage.
#54
Originally Posted by endus
It seems to me like another good way to solve all this would be a CAI with oversized piping made out of a material that doesn't get hot and is extremely smooth on the inside. Make it out of carbon fiber or something so that it doesn't get hot and heat the air inside up. Make it super smooth to allow air to flow over the inside surface of the intake as easily as possible. Make it oversized and keep bends to an absolute minimum to make it as easy as possible for the engine to suck the air in.
Dave
#55
Originally Posted by Dave B
The Place Racing CAI pipe I'm running is 3" ID and is mandrelly bent. It doesn't get hot either after driving in stop in go traffic in 80+ weather. While the rest of the motor is baking, this pipe stays cool to the touch.
Dave
Dave
So what you're saying is that I need to get me a Place Racing CAI to try out to see how it does against the stock airbox and frankencar. Okay, fine I'll buy one.....nooooooo too late to talk me out of it now...haha. Seriously though, that makes sense I suppose.
I was thinking of trying something else next summer since the Frankencar is, admittedly, really miserable in hot hot weather. The thing is definitely making more power than stock at high speed. Yes I know engine RPM is what matters, and yes i get the dyno thing now and I agree, but that doesn't change the difference between 1-50mph and 60-110 mph in the real world...you ARE getting more air under there (not compared to dyno, compared to low speed), and the thing IS sucking hot air until you get moving...all I notice is really the lack of low end until > 60mph.
I suppose what I was thinking about before is basically ghetto ram air for the Max. People seem to like the OSCAI...I wonder if there is a better place to put the thing and a better way to do it to basically stuff more air into the CAI...if you could get some pressure going it would probably eliminate the fact that it's harder to suck the air through the longer piping.
#56
I think endus was referring to (when he talked about high speed) was the air making it's way into the engine compartment...I'd imagine (no proof to back this up) that the engine compartment is cooler at 100mph than it is at 2mph.
As for the MEVI...I was under the assumption that the design was to allow different size runners for different air flow at different speeds. Smaller runners provide high-velocity low-throughput air flow (low rpm), while bigger ones give low-velocity high throughput (high rpm). Is this not the case?
As for the resonance, all current intakes are static intakes (IIRC). The volume of the intake doesn't change, nor does the shape. If this is the case, resonance will give you nothing more than a spike in a dynamometer plot. It will only help when the resonant wavefront's periodicity is an integral of the timing of the valves.
As for the MEVI...I was under the assumption that the design was to allow different size runners for different air flow at different speeds. Smaller runners provide high-velocity low-throughput air flow (low rpm), while bigger ones give low-velocity high throughput (high rpm). Is this not the case?
As for the resonance, all current intakes are static intakes (IIRC). The volume of the intake doesn't change, nor does the shape. If this is the case, resonance will give you nothing more than a spike in a dynamometer plot. It will only help when the resonant wavefront's periodicity is an integral of the timing of the valves.
#60
what about a hybrid with a scoop or a tube running cold air up to it? less effective than a CAI, but more free flowing. couldnt you kinda use the scoop shaped stock intake for this "ram air" mock up?
#61
That might not be a half bad idea...in fact, that's the best 'solution' I've seen to the 'problem'.
Remove/relocate the fog light...put a scoop in there (like the eclipse guys do) and have a pipe run up to feed the mid-pipe...Only problem there is, unless you have a fan pumping the colder air in, you are still sucking hot engine-bay air in at low vehicle speeds.
I don't really think it'd be worth the work.
Remove/relocate the fog light...put a scoop in there (like the eclipse guys do) and have a pipe run up to feed the mid-pipe...Only problem there is, unless you have a fan pumping the colder air in, you are still sucking hot engine-bay air in at low vehicle speeds.
I don't really think it'd be worth the work.
#62
Originally Posted by SXN
what about a hybrid with a scoop or a tube running cold air up to it? less effective than a CAI, but more free flowing. couldnt you kinda use the scoop shaped stock intake for this "ram air" mock up?
#64
Quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by SXN
what about a hybrid with a scoop or a tube running cold air up to it? less effective than a CAI, but more free flowing. couldnt you kinda use the scoop shaped stock intake for this "ram air" mock up?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted by SXN
what about a hybrid with a scoop or a tube running cold air up to it? less effective than a CAI, but more free flowing. couldnt you kinda use the scoop shaped stock intake for this "ram air" mock up?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Yeah , Thats EXACTLY WHAT I have done to my car.
CA Comes Into the Hybrid/ Frankencar Midpipe.
It's A CAI w/ Only a Midpipe and Filter.
Its not that hard to understand thats what ur all worried about is the tourqe on Hybrind/ VS ./CAI
READ THE QUOTE ABOVE 'OR ill get pics of my CAI/HYBRID Tommrow.
Just FORCE AIR, not 2 intakes
#65
Originally Posted by sryth
As for the MEVI...I was under the assumption that the design was to allow different size runners for different air flow at different speeds. Smaller runners provide high-velocity low-throughput air flow (low rpm), while bigger ones give low-velocity high throughput (high rpm). Is this not the case?
As for the resonance, all current intakes are static intakes (IIRC). The volume of the intake doesn't change, nor does the shape. If this is the case, resonance will give you nothing more than a spike in a dynamometer plot. It will only help when the resonant wavefront's periodicity is an integral of the timing of the valves.
As for the resonance, all current intakes are static intakes (IIRC). The volume of the intake doesn't change, nor does the shape. If this is the case, resonance will give you nothing more than a spike in a dynamometer plot. It will only help when the resonant wavefront's periodicity is an integral of the timing of the valves.
Dave
#67
Originally Posted by BOSS
in the end guys, doesn't it all equal out somehow? I would think it does. Here is my theory - WIth the stock intake you get smoothed out power throughout basically the whole RPM range. People say with HAI you do get some more high end power....but you lost low end so...you get me? Would it all equal out at the end?
stock intake with no lag and smoothed out power all throughout RPM = HAI with lag in low RPM but more power in high end = CAI with no lag in the start but less power with high end ??????
This is a cheesy explanation...but think about it... if you start with stock intake and floor it you have more power than does the HAI so you pass him by because it lags way more at start. Then, although you're ahead, the HAI has greater high end potential so it catches up at high RPM. I know it's not 100% equal...but more or less doesn't it all equal out??? It does IMO
stock intake with no lag and smoothed out power all throughout RPM = HAI with lag in low RPM but more power in high end = CAI with no lag in the start but less power with high end ??????
This is a cheesy explanation...but think about it... if you start with stock intake and floor it you have more power than does the HAI so you pass him by because it lags way more at start. Then, although you're ahead, the HAI has greater high end potential so it catches up at high RPM. I know it's not 100% equal...but more or less doesn't it all equal out??? It does IMO
#68
Originally Posted by Dave B
The MEVI only uses one set of runners. It uses resonance tuning to make the high rpm power. The MEVI isn't a dual plane intake manifold like used on the 3rd gen VE or 5/6th gen Maxima. The MEVI volume doesn't change, but the resonance changes having an almost SC-line effect.
#69
re: feeding cold air to the HAI...
A friend of mine has a Jetta that he put an intake on. The intake is a carbon fiber cyninder and he tells me there is a cone filter inside. A tube runs out of the cylinder to the front of the car somewhere.
If there was some way to rig this up for our cars you could basically have a scoop under the car or in the foglight or wherever blasting cold air into the HAI. There is no way in hell that a cylinder is going to fit in there on my car with the frankencar installed, so you would have to ditch the midpipe to do this. According to the resonance tuning stuff I guess that wouldn't be a bad thing since we could reinstall the stock resonator.
The one thing that's sketchy with his is the size of the hose coming out of the cylinder. I doubt it's big enough. I suppose the ideal would be to have solid 3" piping like the CAI, just running towards a scoop.
I dunno if there's enough room under our hoods to do something like that though. Maybe it would be possible with smaller, flexible tubing, but I have a feeling that making that the only source of air would be a bad thing...the problems of the CAI sucking air through a lot of piping multiplied.
A friend of mine has a Jetta that he put an intake on. The intake is a carbon fiber cyninder and he tells me there is a cone filter inside. A tube runs out of the cylinder to the front of the car somewhere.
If there was some way to rig this up for our cars you could basically have a scoop under the car or in the foglight or wherever blasting cold air into the HAI. There is no way in hell that a cylinder is going to fit in there on my car with the frankencar installed, so you would have to ditch the midpipe to do this. According to the resonance tuning stuff I guess that wouldn't be a bad thing since we could reinstall the stock resonator.
The one thing that's sketchy with his is the size of the hose coming out of the cylinder. I doubt it's big enough. I suppose the ideal would be to have solid 3" piping like the CAI, just running towards a scoop.
I dunno if there's enough room under our hoods to do something like that though. Maybe it would be possible with smaller, flexible tubing, but I have a feeling that making that the only source of air would be a bad thing...the problems of the CAI sucking air through a lot of piping multiplied.
#70
You're right that the MEVI isn't a true dual runner setup, but the volume actually does change. It's the volumetric change in that 'pouch' that makes the MEVI 'act' like a shorter runner/long runner depending on whether the butterflies are open or closed.
DW
DW
Originally Posted by Dave B
The MEVI only uses one set of runners. It uses resonance tuning to make the high rpm power. The MEVI isn't a dual plane intake manifold like used on the 3rd gen VE or 5/6th gen Maxima. The MEVI volume doesn't change, but the resonance changes having an almost SC-line effect.
Dave
Dave
#71
I know they make short/long runner variable manifolds, but I was under the assumption that some designs use small/large runner diameters as well...smaller diameter will restrict flow, but increase velocity, while the large diameter runner will increase air flow at the sacrifice of velocity. If this is the case, then the MEVI is not optimal.
#72
back to the design....what if you, just after the split, on the HAI side - install something similar to the trottle body that only opens and closes at a given RPM. It should not be that hard to run a sensor for the rpm to a capacitor or something that would trigger the "TB"
#73
That would work...you could get a 2 state solenoid to hold the valve open. That would do the trick.
Run a sensor to a capacitor? Not sure what you mean here. I'd just get an electronic RPM switch. They make them already, so they're tested and "perfected".
The ultimate question is: is it worth it?
Run a sensor to a capacitor? Not sure what you mean here. I'd just get an electronic RPM switch. They make them already, so they're tested and "perfected".
The ultimate question is: is it worth it?
#74
Originally Posted by sryth
I know they make short/long runner variable manifolds, but I was under the assumption that some designs use small/large runner diameters as well...smaller diameter will restrict flow, but increase velocity, while the large diameter runner will increase air flow at the sacrifice of velocity. If this is the case, then the MEVI is not optimal.
In a nutshell, the MEVI is able to compensate for the turbulence of air that occurs at 5400rpms. At a preset moment (~5300-5400rpms), the butterflys open up to the upper resonance chamber which creates a pressure wave that cancels out the reverberations of the turbulent air in the intake manifold. What ends up happening is the pulse is smoothed out and the intake is able to continue to breath strong to 6100rpms and pretty much sustain that power for another 900rpms or so. At least that's my understanding of resonance tuning.
Dave
#76
On the other hand, if someone were willing to do all of the work, and start selling these things as kits, it might be a good idea.
You could argue that all of the aftermarket intakes fit into this category; too much work for a few HP. These intakes were still developed, though. While it may be too much work for every .org member to do individually on their own car, if one .org member did the work, and made a kit, it'd be a great thing (if it actually increased power).
You could argue that all of the aftermarket intakes fit into this category; too much work for a few HP. These intakes were still developed, though. While it may be too much work for every .org member to do individually on their own car, if one .org member did the work, and made a kit, it'd be a great thing (if it actually increased power).
#77
The aftermarket developed their kits and gained from 4 to 6 hp over stock. The ideas being bandied about in this thread would at most make a 1-2 hp difference. You can gain that from just replacing your air filter. Diminishing returns.
DW
DW
Originally Posted by sryth
On the other hand, if someone were willing to do all of the work, and start selling these things as kits, it might be a good idea.
You could argue that all of the aftermarket intakes fit into this category; too much work for a few HP. These intakes were still developed, though. While it may be too much work for every .org member to do individually on their own car, if one .org member did the work, and made a kit, it'd be a great thing (if it actually increased power).
You could argue that all of the aftermarket intakes fit into this category; too much work for a few HP. These intakes were still developed, though. While it may be too much work for every .org member to do individually on their own car, if one .org member did the work, and made a kit, it'd be a great thing (if it actually increased power).
#78
So, what you're saying is: if the choice was between the two types of kits (one that gave 4-6HP and another that yielded 5-8HP), people wouldn't lean toward the kit that produces more HP?
#80
the CAI "chokes off" at top end because of not enough air circulating in the wheel well? Right? Well why not use a cai, and then have a tube from the foglight opening going right up to the filter, thus possibly even making a ram air type deal that will always have plenty of cool air, and rain cant very well shoot vertically up a tube (unless driving through very deep puddles/flooded roads, which isnt smart anyways)